Who Canadian really are ......

[DrYouth]

27 minutes ago, PIK said:

What you see around the world is canada's future. 

Based on your infallible crystal ball?

[Moonlight Graham]

17 minutes ago, DrYouth said:

A publicly funded mental health system HAS to be rationed.

There are in Canada many privately funded mental health providers.

But few people have private insurance to cover it because Canadians rely on the public system for our healthcare needs.  So when people get into psychological trouble, unless they need to go to the hospital or ER, they're paying out of pocket.  A session with a private psychologist is, what, like $200 a session?  And nobody is helped by just 1 session.  So it's anti-depressants or bust.

17 minutes ago, DrYouth said:

Medical psychiatric care is OF COURSE rationed.... but there is much more of it available publicly in Canada than in the US.

People with severe psychiatric needs are covered adequately in Canada, because they can go to the hospital/ER.  If you're not triaged to the front of the line, you're screwed. The system does not care about you.  It is severely underfunded to the point of being disgusting.  It's a national travesty, and shame on you for defending it.

17 minutes ago, DrYouth said:

Medical psychiatric care is really only something you want to consider if your mental health needs are in the severe range.

Yes obviously.  Why else would you need a psychiatrist.

17 minutes ago, DrYouth said:

Medical treatment of mild to moderate mental health concerns has been shown to be often ineffective and not infrequently counter productive...

So you're saying seeing a therapist is almost worthless?  You're saying the vast majority of the psychology and counselling professions are worthless?  You're saying anti-depressants or bust, which goes against your anti big pharma stance.  Jesus man....

17 minutes ago, DrYouth said:

Once again Big Pharma has hijacked the system... much to all of our detriment... although there are some situations where psychopharmacology has a significant role to play... it is sad to see it taking the lead role in management of our mental health issues... leading to a lack of expertise in non-medication based approaches.

The system is a disgrace.  It's also corrupt.  If the private sector can't save us, nor the government, it's every man for themselves.  Self-help books and youtube videos or bust.

17 minutes ago, DrYouth said:

Going back to a mandated insurance system is the biggest brain fart of them all. Why insert a private middle-man - something that  has been demonstrated to inflate costs and vastly increase burocratic red tape.

The public systems either need to be funded adequately, or introduce much more private insurance into the picture.  The US doesn't do it properly, they are not a model to look at.  It's woefully regulated, and the corporate wolves control everything.  Provincial governments want to spend money on total BS projects and waste taxpayer dollars while people out there are suffering.  Fund the damn system or dismantle the system.  2 choices.

Mental health care in Canada is already a 2-tier system.  Publicly funded for very severe cases and virtually nothing for everyone else.  Unless they buy private insurance!

[Zeitgeist]

Wait times can be long for certain procedures and tests if the triage deems that it can wait, which is why I go to walk-in clinics for the minor stuff and hospitals for major stuff.  The hospitals are well equipped, but they’re not going to staff additional specialists so that someone can get their flu meds faster.  A lot of people don’t realize that what they are coming to hospital with just isn’t serious or priority.  If you come to Emergency with a cold, you will probably sit there for four hours.  Why?  Because the nurses who checked your blood pressure and oxygen levels in triage determined that you are breathing and have a normal resting heart rate.  You are not at imminent risk. Of course this was decided after they asked if you have any medical conditions, asked your recent medical history, and checked your history on their database.  In their heads they are thinking, “another hypochondriac suck”, but they are professional and polite.  They won’t tell you it’s a virus that needs to run its course because they are not doctors, so you will sit and wait to see the doctor as promised.  

If on the other hand there are irregularities that require further testing/treatment, that will come as needed.  For the small things I suggest visiting your family doctor or the fast-paced clinic, where you can be in and out with your shotgun amoxicillin in less than an hour.

The true test of a medical system is outcomes and expenditures.  The Canadian system has good outcomes at a much lower cost than US healthcare, but the US has more of the leading research hospitals.  They make more money to pay for that research, though Canada has some damn good ones too, like Sick Kids or Princess Margaret.  I think better models for healthcare are found in parts of Europe (and not Britain).   

Edited December 28, 2019 by Zeitgeist

[DrYouth]

21 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

So you're saying seeing a therapist is almost worthless?  You're saying the vast majority of the psychology and counselling professions are worthless?  You're saying anti-depressants or bust, which goes against your anti big pharma stance.  Jesus man....

Not at all... I was referring to medication based treatments as often neffective and occasionally counterproductive for mild to moderate mental health issues.

I agree with you that the public system is underfunded.

However there is a public mental health system which is not insignificant.... although it is rationed.

The Canadian Mental Health Association also provides meaningful services and peer support... and is open access.

So overall we are not doing too badly and certainly better than the US when it comes to public access mental health services.

A completely unrationed publicly funded mental health system is a utopian fantasy... but I completely agree with striving for better public mental health supports and addictions programs.... we have a long way to go.

 

[bush_cheney2004]

10 minutes ago, DrYouth said:

So overall we are not doing too badly and certainly better than the US when it comes to public access mental health services.

 

"Medically necessary" excludes many services from the public funding model, including psychologists that are not also medical doctors.   Canadians also have no federal law protections for mental health care parity, prevention, and "essential" care mandates compared to the U.S. for public or private insurance.

"Access to a wait list is NOT Access to Health Care"  -  Chief Justice Beverley McLachlin

 

[Argus]

3 hours ago, DrYouth said:

I am a practicing psychiatrist working with adolescents at our local general hospital. In speaking with physicians from the US, I am convinced our Canadian system is head and shoulders ahead of the US system.

That's just another example of Canadian complacency. As long as our system is better than the Americans then it's okay. Well, it's not okay. Doctors in France and Germany get to treat who they want too, but those patients don't have to wait nearly as long to get to see a doctor. We should be looking at European models which are better than ours not congratulating ourselves we're better than the Americans.

3 hours ago, DrYouth said:

The primary concern with the medical system continue to be the over reliance on Big Pharma in funding research

Uh, no. The primary concern with the medical system continues to be a lack of doctors, long waits at hospitals, long waits for specialist appointments, and long waits for treatment.

3 hours ago, DrYouth said:

Can we do better, certainly and we should.... And yes we look good compared to the US... but we should look to other models of health care that have worked out efficiencies that strike a better balance. 

Which is my point. Same goes for many other things.

[Argus]

2 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

The problem with Canada's health system is that it's rationed.  As a psychiatrist you should know that in some major Canadian cities it can take several months to see a publicly funded therapist like a psychologist or psychiatrist such as yourself after your family doctor has submitted a referral.  Unless of course you're having a severe or emergency situation like suicide or voices in the head, which you'll get to see someone fairly quickly.

A friend of mine's teenage daughter was having suicidal thoughts. She was admitted to hospital quickly enough, stayed for a week, then was discharged with medication. Her mother was told it could take three years for her to get in to see a psychiatrist. Let's hope she survives that long.

[Argus]

1 hour ago, DrYouth said:

Not at all... I was referring to medication based treatments as often neffective and occasionally counterproductive for mild to moderate mental health issues.

I agree with you that the public system is underfunded.

Is it, though? Comparing our spending to Europe, we come off as being comparable. But we don't get as good outcomes as they do and we tend to have longer wait times.

[DrYouth]

1 hour ago, Argus said:

A friend of mine's teenage daughter was having suicidal thoughts. She was admitted to hospital quickly enough, stayed for a week, then was discharged with medication. Her mother was told it could take three years for her to get in to see a psychiatrist. Let's hope she survives that long.

Don't wait to see a psychiatrist. Doctors always think they need to refer to other doctors. Suicidal thoughts in teens are extremely common and do not usually require medical psychiatric intervention. Get her connected with a well rated mental health worker who works with teens and families. Check out your local public mental health service for youth and families. Find out what the intake process is.

[DrYouth]

1 hour ago, Argus said:

Is it, though? Comparing our spending to Europe, we come off as being comparable. But we don't get as good outcomes as they do and we tend to have longer wait times.

By all means I am in support of exploring other systems and learning from them. 

 

[Army Guy]

7 hours ago, DrYouth said:

I am a practicing psychiatrist working with adolescents at our local general hospital. In speaking with physicians from the US, I am convinced our Canadian system is head and shoulders ahead of the US system. I can provide support to teenagers of all financial backgrounds that are admitted to our hospital with suicide attempts or major mental health presentations and hospitalize them for the amount of time necessary for them to stabilize without overwhelming the families with financial burden. This would simply not be possible in the US. Only those with adequate insurance would receive the treatment necessary and those without would not. In fact those with adequate insurance often receive more interventions than necessary which is often counterproductive.

The primary concern with the medical system continue to be the over reliance on Big Pharma in funding research and promoting interventions. This is far bigger than a local Canadian issue. Canada certainly does a better if still inadequate job of curtailing the expenses and negotiating with Big Pharma to reduce our health care costs.

Can we do better, certainly and we should.... And yes we look good compared to the US... but we should look to other models of health care that have worked out efficiencies that strike a better balance. 

WOW, thats the standard now, we say well atleast we are better than the Americans....just for shits and giggles where do we rank on the world scale and where does the us rank and how much of our tax dollars are diverted to our health care system.......when there are drastic shortages of medical personal of all types across the country, … Americans with insurance do not face half the problems we do, long waits to see a doctor in emergence, even longer wait times to get a family doctor can run into the years , and when you do get to see them all you get is a prescription for the happy pills, big pharma indeed....Lets not forget we also have families that can not afford treatments because they don't have good medical coverage here in Canada, where treatment for things like cancer is tiered if you have good insurance, or if you don't … Ya could be a lot worse...but for a G-8 nation are we getting what we pay for...

[Army Guy]

2 hours ago, DrYouth said:

Don't wait to see a psychiatrist. Doctors always think they need to refer to other doctors. Suicidal thoughts in teens are extremely common and do not usually require medical psychiatric intervention. Get her connected with a well rated mental health worker who works with teens and families. Check out your local public mental health service for youth and families. Find out what the intake process is.

Not as easy as you make it out to be doc, I've buried a lot ( more than 15) of my friends and comrades of mine in the last 8 years because of metal health issues, and they begged to be seen by health clinic workers, some even taking drastic measures like bringing a toy pistol into a police station begging them to shot him , another drove his truck into a the main window of a bank waiting for the cops to show up....and then all they got was  45 min session and a fist full of powerful drugs  only dulled the pain....turning them into zombies...and told their next appoint might not be for months...weeks later they were being buried....and it is not just like this where I'm from , but around most military bases you'll hear the same story...

[Zeitgeist]

But isn’t the problem with mental health that causes and symptoms aren’t always as identifiable as physical problems? If it was as easy as checking the levels of certain biochemicals in the body/brain and prescribing a drug, that would be easy.  How do you know whether someone is going to commit suicide?  Yes, if someone is talking/writing about it, that’s obvious.  But how many people are walking around, on or off meds, seriously considering suicide without displaying obvious signs?   I bet a lot.  

[DrYouth]

47 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

Not as easy as you make it out to be doc, I've buried a lot ( more than 15) of my friends and comrades of mine in the last 8 years because of metal health issues, and they begged to be seen by health clinic workers, some even taking drastic measures like bringing a toy pistol into a police station begging them to shot him , another drove his truck into a the main window of a bank waiting for the cops to show up....and then all they got was  45 min session and a fist full of powerful drugs  only dulled the pain....turning them into zombies...and told their next appoint might not be for months...weeks later they were being buried....and it is not just like this where I'm from , but around most military bases you'll hear the same story...

No it's not easy...

The deep seated problem is the medical systems failure to understand stress and trauma.... the underpinnings of most mental health issues and many physical illnesses and chronic pain issues.

Our education system is another part of the problem.. Clinicians train academically - basically learning knowledge and facts rather than skills. 

These systems converge to talk a lot about diagnoses and brain chemistry and essentially know very little about actually working through the impact of trauma on the nervous system.

There are some very powerful new therapies for trauma... but they are not widespread.... 

[Moonlight Graham]

13 hours ago, DrYouth said:

Not at all... I was referring to medication based treatments as often neffective and occasionally counterproductive for mild to moderate mental health issues.

Oh ok.  Well I agree that people are over-medicated in less than severe cases.

13 hours ago, DrYouth said:

So overall we are not doing too badly and certainly better than the US when it comes to public access mental health services.

 

A completely unrationed publicly funded mental health system is a utopian fantasy... but I completely agree with striving for better public mental health supports and addictions programs.... we have a long way to go.

Obviously a publicly funded system needs to be rationed.  In mental health there isn't enough funding, so there's such demand for services and low supply funded by the public that there's a crisis, and people often need to hit rock bottom before they can get proper publicly funded treatment beyond pills.  Rationed care only works when there's enough rations to properly meet needs.

[taxme]

On 12/27/2019 at 4:07 PM, Nefarious Banana said:

The inbred Liberal mess originates in Ontario/Quebec . . . . they will never give up their corrupt entitled hold on the rest of Canada.  Manitoba west could be very viable in a decade.  Fuel and food, we have it all.  The last election showed us where the lines are drawn.  Time to do something about it.  Bitch and moan just doesn't cut it anymore.  The west has a vibrancy lacking in the east.

Sadly, the west will not be doing a dam thing about anything. They still want to be Canadian, which is the problem. The people in the west still love their daily beating by the east every day. The four western provinces joined together can take the world by the rocks, and we all could end up filthy rich, but they would have to get rid of all of those fake and phony liberal and socialist political party's that always keep trying to destroy all things decent and moral, and do enjoy blowing taxpayer's tax dollars like there is no tomorrow. Keeping them around will still keep us all in a fiscal and social mess. A separate west must start off with a real and true conservative party, otherwise nothing will change. It will just end up being the same old, same old. 

[taxme]

On 12/27/2019 at 3:52 PM, DrYouth said:

Could things  be better... sure there is always room for improvement...

Could it be worse... all you have to do is look around the globe... it could be a lot worse.

Your reply is just another cop out. Just be happy with what you have, and do not try to make it any better. If most Canadians gave a dam about anything, Canada would be in a lot better shape then what it is today. If it were not for most of the crooks, thieves and liars in all three levels of government here in Canada this country would be one hell of a filthy rich country. But thanks to the dear comrade leaders that Canadians keep voting for, they will always end up with a country that is corrupt and in debt. And at the rate things are going these days, things can only get worse. So, if all you want to say is that let's all just talk the talk, but do not try to walk the walk, then you are talking to the wrong person. 

[taxme]

On 12/27/2019 at 4:53 PM, Moonlight Graham said:

Western civilization has been progressing and decaying at about the same rate and at the same time since the 1960's.  Only a revolutionary movement like the 60's can change our path. 

Just what did the sixties do for the world? Is the world a better place to live in now? You tell me. 

[Army Guy]

On 12/28/2019 at 9:11 PM, Zeitgeist said:

But isn’t the problem with mental health that causes and symptoms aren’t always as identifiable as physical problems? If it was as easy as checking the levels of certain biochemicals in the body/brain and prescribing a drug, that would be easy.  How do you know whether someone is going to commit suicide?  Yes, if someone is talking/writing about it, that’s obvious.  But how many people are walking around, on or off meds, seriously considering suicide without displaying obvious signs?   I bet a lot.  

I don't think that they are not identifiable, I think we put all the pieces together after it is to late , we are to consumed with our own lives to really notice. I know a lot of the guys I knew had hit rock bottom had massive problems with drugs and drink, lost jobs, family, landed in trouble with the law, even gone to jail, I guess they had fallen out of our social group so no one was really tracking them until it was to late... I think a mental health clinic would be a much better source of info than my here say....

As for meds, you can tell when someone is on meds , their turned into zombies....and when their off , it is night and day... a lot of guys refuse their meds for that reason , it literally shuts you down as a person, you lack drive, motivation, you just sit there and do nothing, your give a F888k factor for anything is at zero, ..... some military guys have taken to forming groups so they can share info, what works what does not ,who to see in regards to mental health for help , who to stay away from,  not many are in favor of the drug route...talking about your experiences really help , even more helpful if those people have gone through what your facing now.. almost like an AA meeting..

If your not familiar with the person , it can be very hard to read them for any signs , people only show you what they want , nothing more...but close family or friends will pick up on several warning signs before they ask or act, The military does offer suicide prevention courses, but back then we all thought it was voodoo magic, and did not put much attention into it... ...that being said is you can't force anyone into treatment or into seeing anyone… unless they want treatment...and where they are at in this journey...early is good, especially if they can talk to someone who has been through it   , it shows them it is beatable... late is harder...The problem with mental health issues is there is a not short cut, or magic pill, it's a long journey...

[Moonlight Graham]

5 hours ago, taxme said:

Just what did the sixties do for the world? Is the world a better place to live in now? You tell me. 

End of Jim Crow in USA?  More rights for women.

[taxme]

7 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

End of Jim Crow in USA?  More rights for women.

The start up of the Black Panthers. The start of the era of the leftist Trudeau's. Less rights for men. The start of the promotion of the gay perverted lifestyle. Abortion, the killing of babies. The creation of more taxes, and more of a bigger government. Massive 3rd world immigration. Billions blown on foreign aid. More endless wars. More poverty and more hunger in the world.  Want more?  

Edited December 31, 2019 by taxme

[Charles Anthony]

Folks,

Please avoid thread drift. 

 

2 hours ago, taxme said:

 Want more?  

No. 

[Argus]

I think one of the problems Canadians have in seeing who they are is that they aren't reflected in the mainstream media. The mainstream media is 100% made up of progressives, and only reflect a progressive view of Canada. It is, as an article I posted earlier described, the 'urban, woke' version of Canada' and completely ignores most of the population and their reality.