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What to do about China


Argus

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42 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

It's hard to separate the shilling/bashing from general uninformed xenophobic nonsense and actual strategic concerns.

Argus has provided reasoned evidence that China is acting in bad faith in terms of becoming part of the world community.  They seem to think we are back in the 19th century in terms of invading empires and dominance.  When the UK lost the baton in the 20th century they continued to prosper and lead the world in many respects.  America will not be 'defeated' nor will the west.

I don't find it terribly difficult to separate the wheat from the chaff

on the shilling/bashing China tip

though most people clearly do

 

the only nation that can defeat America

is America itself

an explosion isn't going to knock America off it's perch

but an implosion might

China ain't even close

Edited by Yzermandius19
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4 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

This came up last year, I think.  The Canadian military has been co-training with China since at least the Harper days.

It should probably stop, but this is also the kind of partisan nit-picking that the Rebel submits in place of actual journalism or insight.  As awful as the CBC and CTV et al can be ... this is worse.   We have to get back to ignoring liars, failures and disunifying fakes...

I think that all ended after the Micheals were taken. This company has been around since 2009 and there is no mention of when Chinese pilots were here. It is quite possible they were also here during some of the Harper years. This is a private company which has nothing to do with our armed forces. Any Joe Blow with a pilot licence can buy their services.

Edited by Aristides
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5 hours ago, Yzermandius19 said:

indeed

even if they did

they would get their asses handed to them

Thats one hell of a prediction, for a couple reasons, one the Chinese navy is now the worlds largest, and while in no comparison to the US fleet in strengths or capabilities , it is capable of atleast making the US navy blink when it comes down to the damage it can cause ..., it will not stop China from building naval bases that can threaten Australia, nor will it effect the trade war it has with Australia right now.

China is playing the long game, which it has mastered...

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13 hours ago, Army Guy said:

 

Thats one hell of a prediction, for a couple reasons, one the Chinese navy is now the worlds largest, and while in no comparison to the US fleet in strengths or capabilities , it is capable of atleast making the US navy blink when it comes down to the damage it can cause ..., it will not stop China from building naval bases that can threaten Australia, nor will it effect the trade war it has with Australia right now.

China is playing the long game, which it has mastered...

China's navy isn't even as good as the Japanese navy, let alone the American navy

at this point they can't even control the South China Sea, let alone project their power beyond it, even invading Taiwan would be a disaster for China, that's how little power projection they have

meanwhile America controls both the Atlantic and Pacific, and is allies with all the major players in East Asia, and that alliance dwarfs China's military capabilities several times over

China is not a scary navy right now, quality is more important than quantity, and the last experience in naval warfare at any scale was in the 19th century when Japan handed them their ass

China's economy is totally reliant on the US Navy to allow their exports to flow through the maritime choke points and across the Pacific, and also for allowing raw material imports to flow through them as well

there is nothing China can do about that, if the US Navy didn't want to allow them to do that anymore, they have no way to prevent being cut off from the very source of their economic growth

China is only growing in power right now, because America is allowing them to

if America changes it's mind, China is totally screwed

starting a war that will piss off America, is the last thing China wants right now, for that very reason

Edited by Yzermandius19
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the downside of being the world's biggest exporter with little internal consumption

is that you need your customers to keep buying your shit

if they stop buying your shit, everything collapses, and Chicoms cannot afford an economic collapse of that magnitude given their current internal problems

pissing off the nations whose navies can kill your ability to export is national suicide

Edited by Yzermandius19
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it's a little early to call China the master of the long game

if they can make the transition from an export based economy to an internal consumption based economy

and start innovating instead of just coasting off the innovation of others

then it starts to make more sense to say that

until then, it's premature to say that, just because they had a dead cat bounce after Mao

there is no guarantee that they can make that transition

Japan couldn't, and people were saying they would overtake America too, jumping the gun in the same way

China has bigger problems that could compromise the ability to make that transition than Japan did

and the consequences of failure to make that transition for China would be far more dire than they were for Japan

Edited by Yzermandius19
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18 hours ago, Yzermandius19 said:

China's navy isn't even as good as the Japanese navy, let alone the American navy

at this point they can't even control the South China Sea, let alone project their power beyond it, even invading Taiwan would be a disaster for China, that's how little power projection they have

meanwhile America controls both the Atlantic and Pacific, and is allies with all the major players in East Asia, and that alliance dwarfs China's military capabilities several times over

China is not a scary navy right now, quality is more important than quantity, and the last experience in naval warfare at any scale was in the 19th century when Japan handed them their ass

China's economy is totally reliant on the US Navy to allow their exports to flow through the maritime choke points and across the Pacific, and also for allowing raw material imports to flow through them as well

there is nothing China can do about that, if the US Navy didn't want to allow them to do that anymore, they have no way to prevent being cut off from the very source of their economic growth

China is only growing in power right now, because America is allowing them to

if America changes it's mind, China is totally screwed

starting a war that will piss off America, is the last thing China wants right now, for that very reason

I did not say the Chinese navy was comparable, or had the capabilities ... nor do they need to, they are capable of inflicting damage on the US navy and it's allied, more damage than they are ready to accept at this time...and still have the US maintain full control over the worlds sea ways, more than one fish in this barrel, ...I think your underestimating Chinas Naval capabilities....they are producing leading edge frigates and destroyers, with more capabilities or on par with the US navy, which the US are now investing in both these platforms to give them an edge... 

As for the PLA having a a scary navy, one would have to ask NATO and other defensive pact countries why China has become the number one threat to the world. and if no one felt threaten by Chinas rapid build up, why are pacific country also entering a period of rapid build up, Taiwan, Australia, Japan...I mean you said there was nothing to worry about right....something you know that these guys don't...

as for China reliance on the US navy for free trade that would come into play in a time of crises, which we are not at ....and in time of conflict China is not going to be exporting anything to the west.  ... lets not forget who produces almost everything on the planet, right now, and who grows stronger everyday,  and who is reliant on whom... 

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12 hours ago, Yzermandius19 said:

it's a little early to call China the master of the long game

if they can make the transition from an export based economy to an internal consumption based economy

and start innovating instead of just coasting off the innovation of others

then it starts to make more sense to say that

until then, it's premature to say that, just because they had a dead cat bounce after Mao

there is no guarantee that they can make that transition

Japan couldn't, and people were saying they would overtake America too, jumping the gun in the same way

China has bigger problems that could compromise the ability to make that transition than Japan did

and the consequences of failure to make that transition for China would be far more dire than they were for Japan

No, china has been doing this for decades, playing the long game, i think they know what they are doing, while the world has been cashing in on peace bonds, China is been expanding....what their main objective is , you tell me... but it is not because their military looks good on parade.

Innovating, why when they can just steal it for free, even the US military has had issues with parts for classified equipment being made in China....it served the soviets well, but thats not their only source, they are managing to build their own tanks , aircraft, ships, with a large source of Chinese tech...

Chinese do not think as we do here in the west, their soldiers lives mean very little, where we tend to take into account battle casualties, and equipment loss into account, they don't put the same value on it...

Besides the US navy is not going to engage unless the end state is worth the price, Taiwan I'm not sure it is worth the price.... 

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3 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

Besides the US navy is not going to engage unless the end state is worth the price, Taiwan I'm not sure it is worth the price.... 

 

The U.S. Navy will engage if allies (Japan, South Korea, Australia, Philippines, etc.)  want to pay the price.    China does not have the ability to project conventional military power outside of the region...the U.S. Navy does.

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America can buy from other countries

China needs America to buy from it

if trade between the countries gets cut off

China suffers a whole lot more

if China can't innovate and consume

then it's economic growth is going to slow, which it already has

they are and were only growing so fast because they are so far behind

the more they catch up by stealing technology, the slower they grow

if you're growth is based on stealing others innovations, which China's is, you can only grow slower than the nations you are stealing from, once the gap closes enough

 

other countries are building up their militaries to ensure they maintain their edge on China

as for Taiwan, even without any help from allies, it isn't worth the price for China to try and invade

China is not ten feet tall

masters of the long game is jumping the gun

thus far it's just a dead cat bounce

Edited by Yzermandius19
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4 hours ago, Yzermandius19 said:

America can buy from other countries

China needs America to buy from it

if trade between the countries gets cut off

China suffers a whole lot more

if China can't innovate and consume

then it's economic growth is going to slow, which it already has

they are and were only growing so fast because they are so far behind

the more they catch up by stealing technology, the slower they grow

if you're growth is based on stealing others innovations, which China's is, you can only grow slower than the nations you are stealing from, once the gap closes enough

 

other countries are building up their militaries to ensure they maintain their edge on China

as for Taiwan, even without any help from allies, it isn't worth the price for China to try and invade

China is not ten feet tall

masters of the long game is jumping the gun

thus far it's just a dead cat bounce

Yes it can buy from many other countries, the products are the same all made in China...most of the worlds products are made in very few destinations.. we the west did that with our greed and passion for cheap shit...

if trade does get cut off then i would say before they make the decision to engage with the west, that would be an important point...as i'm sure that same note would also play a role in the US decision as well. as most of it's manufacturing of cheap shit capability is also based in China. the west lives for cheap shit. 

Like i said they have been building many wpns systems that are on par or considered in the top ten world wide, like frigates and destroyers, where their designs and tech are considered in the top 3... The US navy spends it's R&D money in it's larger ships and assets, frigates and destroyers although important, are only now getting much needed updates...

Im not trying to portray china as superman, i just saying don't underestimate them, many countries are concerned at the pace the Chinese are building military capabilities, that concern is telling another story...and While the US navy could inflict severe damage on the PLA, this is only one theater the US looks after, and in defeating the Chinese it is going to pay a price...and the US allies a much heavier price...

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don't overestimate China

the world certainly is

when America catches a cold

China gets pneumonia

if the US stops buying China's shit

China is done

clearly any country that reliant on America for success and survival

is not as powerful as many claim it to be

if China's economy collapses

they can't build a military that is a major threat to any major power in Asia

let alone elsewhere in the world

China isn't even dominant in it's own backyard

rumors of it's future world domination have been greatly exaggerated

that doesn't mean that one should be complacent about China's growing power

it just means it's many weaknesses are often overlooked and it's strengths are often exaggerated

countries buying into China's braggadocio does not mean that their perception matches the reality of the situation

Edited by Yzermandius19
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Posted (edited)
On 5/19/2021 at 10:04 PM, Yzermandius19 said:

China's navy isn't even as good as the Japanese navy, let alone the American navy

at this point they can't even control the South China Sea, let alone project their power beyond it, even invading Taiwan would be a disaster for China, that's how little power projection they have

meanwhile America controls both the Atlantic and Pacific, and is allies with all the major players in East Asia, and that alliance dwarfs China's military capabilities several times over

China is not a scary navy right now, quality is more important than quantity, and the last experience in naval warfare at any scale was in the 19th century when Japan handed them their ass

China's economy is totally reliant on the US Navy to allow their exports to flow through the maritime choke points and across the Pacific, and also for allowing raw material imports to flow through them as well

there is nothing China can do about that, if the US Navy didn't want to allow them to do that anymore, they have no way to prevent being cut off from the very source of their economic growth

And if the US economy could stand a halt in Chinese imports you'd have a point there. But the US gets so much stuff from China, particularly both rare raw materials and electronics, that couldn't afford a full blockade. There's also considerable doubt Russia wouldn't step in on China's side and force the issue by escorting freighters. They backed down over Cuba but this would be much closer to their center of power.

Edited by Argus
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36 minutes ago, Argus said:

And if the US economy could stand a halt in Chinese imports you'd have a point there. But the US gets so much stuff from China, particularly both rare raw materials and electronics, that couldn't afford a full blockade. There's also considerable doubt Russia wouldn't step in on China's side and force the issue by escorting freighters. They backed down over Cuba but this would be much closer to their center of power.

Oh America doesn't want to do it

because it would be quite painful

but if they did

they'd suffer much less than China

America can take the hit

China cannot

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  • 3 weeks later...

Trudeau whines endlessly about how Canada supposedly committed genocide against natives but at the same time is eager to do business with China, which is ACTUALLY committing genocide. And which Trudeau does not seem to place much importance in.

Chinese birth-control policies could reduce the ethnic minority population in southern Xinjiang by up to a third over the next 20 years, according to new analysis by a German researcher.

The analysis concluded that regional policies could cut between 2.6 and 4.5 million minority births in that time.

China has been accused by some Western nations of genocide in Xinjiang, partly through forced birth-control measures.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-57383548

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50 minutes ago, Argus said:

Trudeau whines endlessly about how Canada supposedly committed genocide against natives but at the same time is eager to do business with China, which is ACTUALLY committing genocide. 

I believe that the two situations are fairly analogous, but I agree with your post

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China has created a "dystopian hellscape" and is commiting crimes against humanity, according to Amnesty International. This is the country which continues to undermine and spy on Canada, and controls (according to CSIS) virtually all Chinese language media here, and works hard to influence and intimidate Chinese Canadians. All with little or no opposition from the Liberal government.

In a report published on Thursday, Amnesty called on the UN to investigate, saying China had subjected Uyghurs, Kazakhs, and other Muslims to mass detention, surveillance, and torture.

Agnès Callamard, the secretary general of Amnesty International, accused Chinese authorities of creating "a dystopian hellscape on a staggering scale".

"It should shock the conscience of humanity that massive numbers of people have been subjected to brainwashing, torture and other degrading treatment in internment camps, while millions more live in fear amid a vast surveillance apparatus," Ms Callamard said.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-57386625

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11 hours ago, Argus said:

China has created a "dystopian hellscape" and is commiting crimes against humanity, according to Amnesty International. This is the country which continues to undermine and spy on Canada, and controls (according to CSIS) virtually all Chinese language media here, and works hard to influence and intimidate Chinese Canadians. All with little or no opposition from the Liberal government.

In a report published on Thursday, Amnesty called on the UN to investigate, saying China had subjected Uyghurs, Kazakhs, and other Muslims to mass detention, surveillance, and torture.

Agnès Callamard, the secretary general of Amnesty International, accused Chinese authorities of creating "a dystopian hellscape on a staggering scale".

"It should shock the conscience of humanity that massive numbers of people have been subjected to brainwashing, torture and other degrading treatment in internment camps, while millions more live in fear amid a vast surveillance apparatus," Ms Callamard said.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-57386625

Wouldn't the Chinese just veto any UN action on the issue?

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  • 1 month later...
  • 2 weeks later...
On 5/19/2021 at 7:04 PM, Yzermandius19 said:

China's navy isn't even as good as the Japanese navy, let alone the American navy

at this point they can't even control the South China Sea, let alone project their power beyond it, even invading Taiwan would be a disaster for China, that's how little power projection they have

meanwhile America controls both the Atlantic and Pacific, and is allies with all the major players in East Asia, and that alliance dwarfs China's military capabilities several times over

China is not a scary navy right now, quality is more important than quantity, and the last experience in naval warfare at any scale was in the 19th century when Japan handed them their ass

China's economy is totally reliant on the US Navy to allow their exports to flow through the maritime choke points and across the Pacific, and also for allowing raw material imports to flow through them as well

there is nothing China can do about that, if the US Navy didn't want to allow them to do that anymore, they have no way to prevent being cut off from the very source of their economic growth

China is only growing in power right now, because America is allowing them to

if America changes it's mind, China is totally screwed

starting a war that will piss off America, is the last thing China wants right now, for that very reason

I hate to break it to you, but you have no idea of what the Chinese navy is capable of.   Maybe if you're at the top of the CIA food chain you would be privy to top secret documents and have some understanding.   But after four years of chaos within the CIA under Trump, they probably have little idea of China's current capabilities.     It got so bad under Trump, the USA can't even protect their power grid from non-government foreign hackers.

 

So, are you at the top of the CIA food chain, and if so, why are you blabbing on a public forum? 

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On 6/7/2021 at 9:10 AM, Argus said:

Trudeau whines endlessly about how Canada supposedly committed genocide against natives but at the same time is eager to do business with China, which is ACTUALLY committing genocide. And which Trudeau does not seem to place much importance in.

Chinese birth-control policies could reduce the ethnic minority population in southern Xinjiang by up to a third over the next 20 years, according to new analysis by a German researcher.

The analysis concluded that regional policies could cut between 2.6 and 4.5 million minority births in that time.

China has been accused by some Western nations of genocide in Xinjiang, partly through forced birth-control measures.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-57383548

That is one of the realities of life.  Canada also does business with the USA, who have been committing genocide for centuries.

 

The only thing realistic thing Canada can do is clean up our own mess, and good on Trudeau for wanting to do that.   It would be great to see Canada as a world leader in this regard.

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14 hours ago, Galloway said:

That is one of the realities of life.  Canada also does business with the USA, who have been committing genocide for centuries.

We don't seem to be very good at it then...

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On 8/9/2021 at 12:49 PM, Argus said:

...

Here's something interesting.  This is a talk given by the ex-Greek minister of finance about how China is approaching Africa.   They are building/rebuilding African infrastructure with no strings attached.   They are building soft power.   

 

The interesting thing is Trump gleefully threw away the soft power the USA had in the area with his "shithole countries" remark.   He threw it all away just so he could impress his base by "powning the libs".   It's hard to imagine a more incompetent leader than Trump.

 

Here's the youtube vid:  

 

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1 hour ago, Galloway said:

What are you talking about?   Why did you ignore the part where I said I considered the best thing Canada could do is clean up our own mess?

Since I don't accept your premise in the first place, I didn't have a lot of interest in your belief as to how we should absolve ourselves of our guilt. 

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