The francophones in Canada

[Dougie93]

It's like, I have my great-grandfather's war diary, which is really just a notebook which he jotted things down in, and he does mention many battles, he also writes about engagements which are not even recorded as battles by officialdom, just little trench fights wherein guys got killed but which never amounted to a "battle" worthy of the government recording, they used to call it "Trench Wastage", guys were killed all the time, by raids, snipers and artillery, and he mentions it, this guy was killed on this day, he knew the guy, so he mentions his passing.

 A lot of these battles were named after the fact, but you can still tell which battles he is talking about, he does write the date at the top of each note he made, so you can figure out where he was when he wrote it.

But the great Battle of Vimy Ridge?  The Glorious Canadian Victory?  The Greatest Canadian Victory of them all?  The Battle That Made The Nation?

Doesn't mention it once.

He fought in every battle from Second Ypres to Mons on the last day of the war, and not once does "Vimy Ridge" appear anywhere in his diary.

A Canadian soldier who fought through the entire war from 1915 on, doesn't even mention it at all? Based on his unit and sub unit, we know he was there, we know he fought in this battle, yet he never even wrote a note about it?

You know why? 

Because it's all bullshit, made up after the fact, years later, by people in Ottawa, long after my great-grandfather had died from complications due to inhaling chlorine gas.

The reality check is, they were fighting for a tiny strip of Belgium which the Germans had failed to take, because the Belgian royal family is the British royal family, so sixty thousand Canadians died, because Albert I asked George V for a favour, which was to prevent this tiny insignificant strip of Belgium from falling into German hands with the rest of the kingdom.

Thus it was, as the French at Dien Bien Phu said, Hell in a very small place, it all took place within a few kilometers of Ypres, it was one big muddy mess of a battlefield, and every offensive was supposed to be the offensive that broke through the German lines, and until the Hundred Days at least, not one of them worked, there were no victories, they were all defeats, to include the pointless and futile action at "Vimy Ridge" as well.

I would assume that he doesn't mention it, because it wasn't worth mentioning, just another time where they went for broke against the German lines and failed to break through, nothing to celebrate, nothing to cheer as a victory, certainly no great nationally unifying Canadian triumph,  the Canadians didn't even advance a kilometer into German held territory at "Vimy Ridge", and yet it still cost them 4000 killed.

Everything in Canada is bullshit, everything the state propaganda arms have taught you about Canada, is bullshit made up after the fact, for the purposes of keeping you down, keeping you rallying around the totalitarian nanny police state and associated entrenched interests rather than you asserting the rights endowed to you by your Creator.  

Speech banning, gun grabbing, freedom hating racist apartheid shit stain of a fake country which only ever sells its boys down the river as cannon fodder, same now as in World War One, I once swore to kill and die for it, naive, like my great-grandfather before me, but I wouldn't cross the street to piss on it if it was on fire now.

And every time some f*ckwit Canadian starts prattling on about the Great Victory at Vimy Ridge which never happened, it just makes me despise phony baloney made up fake country Canada all the more.

Keep on drinking the Kool-Aid in Canadian Jonestown, by all means, that's your prerogative, it's not for me anymore tho, I gag that shit up now, because it's f*cking poison.

Edited August 1, 2019 by Dougie93

[Zeitgeist]

2 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

It's like, I have my great-grandfather's war diary, which is really just a notebook which he jotted things down in, and he does mention many battles, he also writes about engagements which are not even recorded as battles by officialdom, just little trench fights wherein guys got killed but which never amounted to a "battle" worthy of the government recording, they used to call it "Trench Wastage", guys were killed all the time, by raids, snipers and artillery, and he mentions it, this guy was killed on this day, he knew the guy, so he mentions his passing.

 A lot of these battles were named after the fact, but you can still tell which battles he is talking about, he does write the date at the top of each note he made, so you can figure out where he was when he wrote it.

But the great Battle of Vimy Ridge?  The Glorious Canadian Victory?  The Greatest Canadian Victory of them all?  The Battle That Made The Nation?

Doesn't mention it once.

He fought in every battle from Second Ypres to Mons on the last day of the war, and not once does "Vimy Ridge" appear anywhere in his diary.

A Canadian soldier who fought through the entire war from 1915 on, doesn't even mention it at all? Based on his unit and sub unit, we know he was there, we know he fought in this battle, yet he never even wrote a note about it?

You know why? 

Because it's all bullshit, made up after the fact, years later, by people in Ottawa, long after my great-grandfather had died from complications due to inhaling chlorine gas.

The reality check is, they were fighting for a tiny strip of Belgium which the Germans had failed to take, because the Belgian royal family is the British royal family, so sixty thousand Canadians died, because Albert I asked George V for a favour, which was to prevent this tiny insignificant strip of Belgium from falling into German hands with the rest of the kingdom.

Thus it was, as the French at Dien Bien Phu said, Hell in a very small place, it all took place within a few kilometers of Ypres, it was one big muddy mess of a battlefield, and every offensive was supposed to be the offensive that broke through the German lines, and until the Hundred Days at least, not one of them worked, there were no victories, they were all defeats, to include the pointless and futile action at "Vimy Ridge" as well.

I would assume that he doesn't mention it, because it wasn't worth mentioning, just another time where they went for broke against the German lines and failed to break through, nothing to celebrate, nothing to cheer as a victory, certainly no great nationally unifying Canadian triumph,  the Canadians didn't even advance a kilometer into German held territory at "Vimy Ridge", and yet it still cost them 4000 killed.

Everything in Canada is bullshit, everything the state propaganda arms have taught you about Canada, is bullshit made up after the fact, for the purposes of keeping you down, keeping you rallying around the totalitarian nanny police state and associated entrenched interests rather than you asserting the rights endowed to you by your Creator.  

Speech banning, gun grabbing, freedom hating racist apartheid shit stain of a fake country which only ever sells its boys down the river as cannon fodder, same now as in World War One, I once swore to kill and die for it, naive, like my great-grandfather before me, but I wouldn't cross the street to piss on it if it was on fire now.

And every time some f*ckwit Canadian starts prattling on about the Great Victory at Vimy Ridge which never happened, it just makes me despise phony baloney made up fake country Canada all the more.

Keep on drinking the Kool-Aid in Canadian Jonestown, by all means, that's your prerogative, it's not for me anymore tho, I gag that shit up now, because it's f*cking poison.

Insulting and ill-informed.  I won’t get into your German pride and America worship, which has its own propaganda-fed problems.  The vast majority of soldiers at Vimy were Canadians and my great-grandfather was there.  He had much to say on the subject.  Most WW1 battles were bloodbaths over narrow strips of land and the whole war itself was a failed attempt to resuscitate a dying Austro-Hungarian empire.  Nevertheless the alliances stuck — Britain with Russia and France — into WW2.   Vimy was important not only because it was the most Canadian soldiers who fought together and achieved a victory.  The ridge itself, if you visit France and Belgium, is very strategic.  It would be like taking the escarpment in order to take Western Ontario.  Within a few months a series of actions changed the tide of the war.   My great- grandfather was in the cavalry and was the only one to return from his unit.  They used to put all the men from the same geographic area alongside each other, so if there was a massacre, the women of an entire village or town would be widowed, the case for my great-grandfather, who had two horses shot from underneath him.  

Edited August 1, 2019 by Zeitgeist

[Dougie93]

7 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Insulting and ill-informed.

What are you insulted by?  That Vimy Ridge was a failed offensive just like every other British offensive to break the German lines, or is it that Canada made up a bullshit myth about it and not everyone drinks that  Kool-Aid like you do?

As to the Americans?  Unlike Canada which charged into Flanders in order to suck up to the British at the cost of 60,000 killed, the Americans at least were mindful of their own interests, Canada being a fake country colony,  America being an actually independent republic, so of course the Americans did alright for themselves while for Canada the war was an absolute catastrophe.

As to the Germans? Strategically they failed, because they failed to break the blockade at Jutland, but operationally on the Western Front, the Germans had invented defense in depth, and thus their lines were impregnable for all intents and purposes, short of the total collapse of the German state itself, which is what it took to bring them down, but which again, was done by the Royal Navy not the British Army, the British Army was a total disaster in the First World War.

Again, there were no victory parades nor cheering throngs to meet the Canadians as they came home from the war,  the troops pulled into the train station in Toronto, and there was literally nobody there.  Deserted. Empty. They just walked home from the train station with no further ado.

Why?  What about Vimy Ridge?  Where were the cheering Canadians come out to congratulate Canada on its Great Nation Building Victory?

Were they trying to insult you then?  Are you insulted that Canadians didn't give a shit then?  Or just that they don't give a shit now?

Edited August 1, 2019 by Dougie93

[Zeitgeist]

1 hour ago, Dougie93 said:

What are you insulted by?  That Vimy Ridge was a failed offensive just like every other British offensive to break the German lines, or is it that Canada made up a bullshit myth about it and not everyone drinks that  Kool-Aid like you do?

As to the Americans?  Unlike Canada which charged into Flanders in order to suck up to the British at the cost of 60,000 killed, the Americans at least were mindful of their own interests, Canada being a fake country colony,  America being an actually independent republic, so of course the Americans did alright for themselves while for Canada the war was an absolute catastrophe.

As to the Germans? Strategically they failed, because they failed to break the blockade at Jutland, but operationally on the Western Front, the Germans had invented defense in depth, and thus their lines were impregnable for all intents and purposes, short of the total collapse of the German state itself, which is what it took to bring them down, but which again, was done by the Royal Navy not the British Army, the British Army was a total disaster in the First World War.

Again, there were no victory parades nor cheering throngs to meet the Canadians as they came home from the war,  the troops pulled into the train station in Toronto, and there was literally nobody there.  Deserted. Empty. They just walked home from the train station with no further ado.

Why?  What about Vimy Ridge?  Where were the cheering Canadians come out to congratulate Canada on its Great Nation Building Victory?

Were they trying to insult you then?  Are you insulted that Canadians didn't give a shit then?  Or just that they don't give a shit now?

You have a strange anti-Canadian take on history.  While WW1 was in many respects a needless war, the same can be said for Vietnam and the Civil War, which took more lives.  The former was a morass indeed that ended in withdrawal and stalemate at best.  Nevertheless, it made sense to those who championed it at the time.  The Seven Years War, War of 1812, and so many others were also arguably needless, and we could go back to the Hundred Years War or the Punic Wars to find similar absurdities.  What we celebrate is the sacrifice and valour.  There are few just wars, but I’ll take Canada’s record.  

In terms of Vimy itself, it was pushing back the Germans, preventing an infilade attack, taking the ridge, marshalling four divisions, and in general, composing a million soldiers across a huge land mass of only eight million citizens through the war.  Anyway, the historic record speaks for itself.  It led to the PM pushing for and getting the Statute of Westminster.  PET tied of the loose ends of complete independence and self-determination with the Constitution in 1982.  

Edited August 1, 2019 by Zeitgeist

[Dougie93]

Well, since you mention Vietnam, celebrating Vimy Ridge as a Great Nation Building Victory is like celebrating Hill 937 at Dong Ap Bia, otherwise known as Hamburger Hill as a Great Nation Building Victory, because Vimy Ridge was just Hamburger Hill on steroids.

As to the Civil War, at least America's great nation building victory at Gettysburg actually happened, unlike the phony baloney fake country fake history peddled by the Government of Canada and associated state propaganda arms.

[Zeitgeist]

1 hour ago, Dougie93 said:

Well, since you mention Vietnam, celebrating Vimy Ridge as a Great Nation Building Victory is like celebrating Hill 937 at Dong Ap Bia, otherwise known as Hamburger Hill as a Great Nation Building Victory, because Vimy Ridge was just Hamburger Hill on steroids.

As to the Civil War, at least America's great nation building victory at Gettysburg actually happened, unlike the phony baloney fake country fake history peddled by the Government of Canada and associated state propaganda arms.

Every country has its cultural mythologies.  If you don’t think Uncle Sam has his, I’ve got some waterfront property in Tuktoyuktuk that might interest you...

[Dougie93]

17 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Every country has its cultural mythologies.  If you don’t think Uncle Sam has his, I’ve got some waterfront property in Tuktoyuktuk that might interest you...

I pledge no particular allegiance to Uncle Sugar neither, the Shot Heard Round the World was fired by Washington not from Washington.

[Dougie93]

It's ironic how Canadians laud Vimy Ridge as being this great and noble victory while castigating Dieppe as a pointless slaughter.  Meanwhile, as the mission at Dieppe was to recover an Enigma Machine, Dieppe was the real war winning mission of the highest importance.

While Vimy Ridge was literally Hamburger Hill, 4000 guys killed for a slight bit of high ground on the Western Front which got them exactly nowhere and served no strategic purpose.   These are the absurdities of a people who are totally divorced from the reality of their military and are rather instead utterly enthralled by Big Lies told by the government about it.

It's not like these Big Lies told about the military to Canadians are benefiting the troops, these lies are entirely self serving of the corrupt, incompetent and farcical Liberal Party of Canada totalitarian elites, who are of course dismantling the military as they go, even if Vimy Ridge wasn't a bunch of bullshit, it's not like Canadians actually honor it with anything other than lip service.

Vimy Ridge was basically Canada saying to Britain; "we don't need you to send our troops out to be cannon fodder for the Empire, we are perfectly capable of murdering our own troops on Hamburger Hill to keep India and the Congo in chains,  take that, you British bastards!"

That's the essence of it all, military, trade, diplomacy, in every aspect of governance, the Fake Country is going to teach Britain and America a lesson by gouging itself repeatedly with its own bayonets, huzzah.  Canadianism presents as collective mental illness, self harm, somebody call the psychiatrists and have this loony tunes Confederation committed for its own good.

You know why the British allowed the Canadian Corps to be formed?

They were afraid that Canada might withdraw its troops from Europe in the face of the futile slaughter, which is laughable, since the political elites in Canada didn't give a shit about the troops in 1917 anymore than they do now, Canada has been the same Company Town all along.

Canada even went so far as to hand over 25 of its own sons to be shot by the British on trumped up charges of "cowardice" because the British were trying to terrify their own troops into submission in fear of mutiny, meanwhile, Australia refused to allow the British to shoot any Australians,  lick spittle Canada however was falling over itself to appease London in any obsequious way it could.

The British are thinking that Canada might withdraw and join the Americans on the sidelines, thus even the British were delusional as to just how much of a crony Canada could actually be, Canada throws its own under the bus, pathologically, then and now.

The great heroes of the Canadian Corps?  Canada had them shot by firing squad,  picked at random, for "cowardice".  Canada being too cowardly to do the deed itself, thus with all things Canadian, they had to have the British do it for them.

Does not protect you.  Does not protect your rights.  Does not protect your property.  Didn't win a blessed thing on Vimy f*ckin' Ridge.  The truth shall set you free.

Edited August 1, 2019 by Dougie93

[Zeitgeist]

3 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

It's ironic how Canadians laud Vimy Ridge as being this great and noble victory while castigating Dieppe as a pointless slaughter.  Meanwhile, as the mission at Dieppe was to recover an Enigma Machine, Dieppe was the real war winning mission of the highest importance.

While Vimy Ridge was literally Hamburger Hill, 4000 guys killed for a slight bit of high ground on the Western Front which got them exactly nowhere and served no strategic purpose.   These are the absurdities of a people who are totally divorced from the reality of their military and are rather instead utterly enthralled by Big Lies told by the government about it.

It's not like these Big Lies told about the military to Canadians are benefiting the troops, these lies are entirely self serving of the corrupt, incompetent and farcical Liberal Party of Canada totalitarian elites, who are of course dismantling the military as they go, even if Vimy Ridge wasn't a bunch of bullshit, it's not like Canadians actually honor it with anything other than lip service.

Vimy Ridge was basically Canada saying to Britain; "we don't need you to send our troops out to be cannon fodder for the Empire, we are perfectly capable of murdering our own troops on Hamburger Hill to keep India and the Congo in chains,  take that, you British bastards!"

That's the essence of it all, military, trade, diplomacy, in every aspect of governance, the Fake Country is going to teach Britain and America a lesson by gouging itself repeatedly with its own bayonets, huzzah.  Canadianism presents as collective mental illness, self harm, somebody call the psychiatrists and have this loony tunes Confederation committed for its own good.

You know why the British allowed the Canadian Corps to be formed?

They were afraid that Canada might withdraw its troops from Europe in the face of the futile slaughter, which is laughable, since the political elites in Canada didn't give a shit about the troops in 1917 anymore than they do now, Canada has been the same Company Town all along.

Canada even went so far as to hand over 25 of its own sons to be shot by the British on trumped up charges of "cowardice" because the British were trying to terrify their own troops into submission in fear of mutiny, meanwhile, Australia refused to allow the British to shoot any Australians,  lick spittle Canada however was falling over itself to appease London in any obsequious way it could.

The British are thinking that Canada might withdraw and join the Americans on the sidelines, thus even the British were delusional as to just how much of a crony Canada could actually be, Canada throws its own under the bus, pathologically, then and now.

The great heroes of the Canadian Corps?  Canada had them shot by firing squad,  picked at random, for "cowardice".  Canada being too cowardly to do the deed itself, thus with all things Canadian, they had to have the British do it for them.

Does not protect you.  Does not protect your rights.  Does not protect your property.  Didn't win a blessed thing on Vimy f*ckin' Ridge.  The truth shall set you free.

Your lies are insulting to the thousands who sacrificed.  Your odd, perhaps pathological form of uninformed disparagement is dangerous. Smarten up.  There was no understanding of shell shock or PTSD then.  Trench warfare was brutal and psychologically damaging.  People were shot for cowardice among all the fighting forces involved.  Do your homework and quit your weird oblique connection between such events and the “Liberal Party of Canada totalitarian elites”.   It’s pretty out there and I’m surprised you haven’t been reeled in on such comments numerous times, or have you?

Edited August 1, 2019 by Zeitgeist

[Dougie93]

2 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Your lies are insulting to the thousands who sacrificed.  Your odd, perhaps pathological form of uninformed disparagement is dangerous. Smarten up.  

I don't answer to you,  I only answer to my Commander-in-Chief, nor do you speak for those who sacrificed, I am a decorated veteran, I have fulfilled my obligations to Her Majesty many times over, it is your odd totalitarian adherence to a fundamentally corrupt and corrupting racist apartheid police state which is dangerous.

[Zeitgeist]

Enough disinformation. Off topic but necessary to illustrate that many Commonwealth countries suffered heavy losses in WW1:

For Australia, the First World War remains the costliest conflict in terms of deaths and casualties. From a population of fewer than five million, 416,809 men enlisted, of whom more than 60,000 were killed and 156,000 wounded, gassed, or taken prisoner.

Some 619,636 Canadians enlisted with the Canadian Expeditionary Force during the war, and approximately 424,000 servedoverseas. Of these men and women, 59,544 members of the CEF died during the war, 51,748 of them as a result of enemy action.

If the Australians were spared execution for desertion, the Brits and many other Commonwealth citizens were not:

Nationality	Number[12]
United Kingdom	291
Canada	25
New Zealand	5
British West Indies	4
Australia	0 [13]
Civilians subject to military law (inc. Chinese labour)	21

[Dougie93]

God bless Australia for not being filthy disgusting sycophants who handed their boys over to be shot, like Canada did.

The Germans of the South Pacific had no time for those murderous Pommy bastards.

 

 

[Dougie93]

4 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Enough disinformation.

Indeed. You can start by ceasing to be an absurd apologist for the British Imperial Army in the First World War, as it will go down in infamy for mass murdering its own troops by criminal negligence on a truly mind boggling scale, to include Vimy Ridge, which, again, was 4000 troops killed; to take ground of no strategic import whatsoever.

On the bus, off the bus, up the hill, down the hill, Canada falling over itself to obsequiously serve its boys up as cannon fodder, and for what?  Freedom and Democracy?

Nope.  Just to keep a tiny sliver of the Belgian slave empire from falling under the control of the German slave empire, as a personal favour to Albert I, from the British slave empire.

And this is after the British made it perfectly clear in 1867 that they were not coming to defend Canada, Canada was left on its own at the mercy of the Americans by London, and yet still Canada charged in to throw itself in front of the English ruling class, to save them from their own cousins. There were no glorious victories, it wasn't a noble cause.   It was pathetic then.  It's still pathetic now.

Why the bullshit Vimy Myth?  Why the fancy monument on Hamburger Hill? 

Guilt.  

Tell the Big Lie to future generations, to try to cover up Canada's willfully negligent crimes against its own people.

Meanwhile, what were Canadians actually saying in 1918? Throngs of Huzzahs for the Glorious National Unifying Victory at blessed Vimy Ridge?

Nope.  They were saying it was a crime, in fact they accused General Currie of being criminally negligent for getting Canadians killed for no good reason, to include Private George Lawrence Price, the last Canadian killed in the war, who was sent out on patrol even though they knew the war was over, only to be killed at 10:58 hrs, just two minutes before the armistice which was scheduled to take effect at 1100 hrs.

There was nothing unifying about the First World War for Canada, it was a catastrophe which tore the country apart and is a wound which Canada has never recovered from, and in the wake of it, no ticker tape parades for the Canadian Corps, there was riots and civil disorder and Bolsheviks agitating for revolution.

Edited August 2, 2019 by Dougie93

[Zeitgeist]

2 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

Indeed. You can start by ceasing to be an absurd apologist for the British Imperial Army in the First World War, as it will go down in infamy for mass murdering its own troops by criminal negligence on a truly mind boggling scale, to include Vimy Ridge, which, again, was 4000 troops killed; to take ground of no strategic import whatsoever.

On the bus, off the bus, up the hill, down the hill, Canada falling over itself to obsequiously serve its boys up as cannon fodder, and for what?  Freedom and Democracy?

Nope.  Just to keep a tiny sliver of the Belgian slave empire from falling under the control of the German slave empire, as a personal favour to Albert I, from the British slave empire.

And this is after the British made it perfectly clear in 1867 that they were not coming to defend Canada, Canada was left on its own at the mercy of the Americans by London, and yet still Canada charged in to throw itself in front of the English ruling class, to save them from their own cousins. There were no glorious victories, it wasn't a noble cause.   It was pathetic then.  It's still pathetic now.

Why the bullshit Vimy Myth?  Why the fancy monument on Hamburger Hill? 

Guilt.  

Tell the Big Lie to future generations, to try to cover up Canada's willfully negligent crimes against its own people.

Meanwhile, what were Canadians actually saying in 1918? Throngs of Huzzahs for the Glorious National Unifying Victory at blessed Vimy Ridge?

Nope.  They were saying it was a crime, in fact they accused General Currie of being criminally negligent for getting Canadians killed for no good reason, to include Private George Lawrence Price, the last Canadian killed in the war, who was sent out on patrol even though they knew the war was over, only to be killed at 10:58 hrs, just two minutes before the armistice which was scheduled to take effect at 1100 hrs.

There was nothing unifying about the First World War for Canada, it was a catastrophe which tore the country apart and is a wound which Canada has never recovered from, and in the wake of it, no ticker tape parades for the Canadian Corps, there was riots and civil disorder and Bolsheviks agitating for revolution.

As with most wars, there is no sensible reason for supporting mass brutality/murder.  Many thousands of Canadians enlisted of their own accord.   They wanted to support their brothers in arms against a perceived aggressor.   Vimy was an important strategic point for its command of the valley and the difficulty of taking it, not unlike the citadel above the Plains of Abraham.  Moreover, it was the largest grouping of Canadian soldiers in history and a statement about the level of organization and support the Canadians mustered.  

The Australians made much sacrifice as well, losing more soldiers even though their forces were smaller.  

You talk about relatives fighting each other.  In the Civil War it was sometimes brother vs.brother.  In the recent 60’s young men were conscripted into Vietnam which had a less favourable outcome than WW1 and took almost as many American lives as Canadians in WW1.  

You have a strong bias and see what you want to see.  You also need to stop this emphasis on German Protestant roots.  Excesses took place on both sides in the Reformation.   Germany caused real grief for millions apart from the losses caused by war under Nazism.  

We’re all trying to figure out the best course and usually do best when seeing a common cause of peace and human development as our main purpose.  You like to also dump on Canada’s peacekeeping history as more myth-making, but it did solve the Suez crisis and lead to some important coordinated efforts.  The intention was good if not always the execution.  The horrors of wars such as WW1 taught us the value of peace.  

As you enjoy your Canadian military pension in Wellington county, Ontario  (which takes its name from the British military leader who stopped Napoleon’s aggressive takeover of Europe at Waterloo), consider the value of the peace, freedom, and prosperity that you have, because it could be quite otherwise.  

[Charles Anthony]

Folks,  

Stay on topic.  Avoid thread drift. 

[Dougie93]

Now, furthermore to getting back on topic, earlier you said to QuebecOverCanada that "Quebec is more pacifist than the rest of Canada".

That's not the case, you are mistaking the Quebecois hesitance to fight wars on behalf of Britain and/or America,  for pacifism.

Quebec is actually one of the more violent provinces, the Hells Angels simply fight for their own territory, including with bombs, they just have no interest in dropping bombs on other peoples countries.

Quebec is the province where children are blown up with pipe bombs.

Quebec is the province where prison guards are assassinated by sniper fire.

Quebec is the province where bikers attempt prison breaks by helicopter extraction right from the yard.

Quebec is the province where gunman show up to political rallies to shoot the politicians.

Quebec is the province which is always at the brink of war with the Mohawks.

With the possible exception of Saskatchewan,  Quebec is the capital of Canadian mayhem.

Vive la Canadienne,  je me souviens.

Edited August 2, 2019 by Dougie93

[Benz]

In the last 30 years, the french of PEI and NS, and also a little bit elsewhere, had to fight up to the Supreme Court, with alot of energy, time and money, just to open a school. At that time, I had no other choice to note that the english canadians behave like imperialist *place-your-best-coarse-word*. The point I often heard is, in the opinion of the english people, there was not enough french people to justify the existence of a new school. While in the mean time in Québec, all english speaking canadians were granted the right and were going into english public schools. The number was not questionned, it was a right. But in english Canada, that right was not existent for the french.

So after the french finally won at the SC and after the first schools were built, something unexpected from the english community happenned. English people were trying to send their children into french schools. It is a phenomenon also seen in NB. What is the reason to explain that? Simple! A big number of english canadians would have loved to learn french and they desire their children to learn it because they considre it is a great asset in their life. The level of french taught in the english schools is terrible and inefficient.

This changed my opinion about english Canada. The reality is very different from what the politicians and the medias would like to portray. The silent majority of english canadians not only have no problem with the french, but they would love to be able to communicate or at least understand it. The bad intentions of very few loud ones often prevents if the silent majority to have the chance to learn french, and of course, give a hard time to the french canadians outside Québec.

I am back from a vacation of 2 weeks in NB. I visited the Acadie and also areas where english is the most used language. When I taked to english people, I saw three types. Those who can do a little bit of french and are pride to show what they can do, those who cannot speak it and are sorry for it, and those who clearly don't give a f--- about french and are definitly not sorry to not being able to serve me in this official canadian language. I like to meet the real people living normal life like that. It changes from the hatred you often read in english medias or just here in this forum with the usual french bashing whiners.

Argos is right that it is not realist to change Canada into a bilingual country per say. Well, not in the short term for sure. But I think that if the spirit of encouraging bilingualism was real and efficient, a greater number of people than we could estimate would follow that path. I am working for a big company that employed several thousands of people. Among them, I'd say 30 percent are more confortable in english than french and when we speak with each others, it is not rare that we mix the conversation because we all understand both languages. I would speak french, my colleague speaks english and it is all fine. Not frenglish tho, that never sounds nice. I think that is the kind of spirit that should be encouraged in Canada. I see this as a mutual respect for both official languages and hopefully bring closer the 2 solitudes. We have to be realist, we cannot reproduce Canada wide what is going in my company but, just removing the obstacles would greatly improve the relations between french and english people of this country.

Now, how would it perceived in english canada? It only depend on how big is what I describ as the silent english majority. Maybe I get it wrong and the silent people are no majority. That is up to the english people to tell me. For many of you, I already know what you will going to say.

[Dougie93]

14 minutes ago, Benz said:

Now, how would it perceived in english canada? It only depend on how big is what I describ as the silent english majority. Maybe I get it wrong and the silent people are no majority. That is up to the english people to tell me. For many of you, I already know what you will going to say.

I'm the English, Anglo Saxon Protestant Orangeman of Upper Canada, my family came to Canada when it was still Nouvelle France, in 1757, to invade Quebec with General Wolfe.

I say Les Deux Solitudes is a failed state, and that is the source of most of the corruption and dysfunction in Ottawa.

Thus I side with the Pequistes, the only way for me to be free, is to be free of Confederation,  the solution is; vive le Quebec, vive le Quebec libre.

I renounce all claims on the Plains of Abraham and give it back to the Quebecois with my best wishes and fond farewells.

Vive la Canadienne, je me souviens.

Edited August 4, 2019 by Dougie93

[Zeitgeist]

7 hours ago, Benz said:

In the last 30 years, the french of PEI and NS, and also a little bit elsewhere, had to fight up to the Supreme Court, with alot of energy, time and money, just to open a school. At that time, I had no other choice to note that the english canadians behave like imperialist *place-your-best-coarse-word*. The point I often heard is, in the opinion of the english people, there was not enough french people to justify the existence of a new school. While in the mean time in Québec, all english speaking canadians were granted the right and were going into english public schools. The number was not questionned, it was a right. But in english Canada, that right was not existent for the french.

So after the french finally won at the SC and after the first schools were built, something unexpected from the english community happenned. English people were trying to send their children into french schools. It is a phenomenon also seen in NB. What is the reason to explain that? Simple! A big number of english canadians would have loved to learn french and they desire their children to learn it because they considre it is a great asset in their life. The level of french taught in the english schools is terrible and inefficient.

This changed my opinion about english Canada. The reality is very different from what the politicians and the medias would like to portray. The silent majority of english canadians not only have no problem with the french, but they would love to be able to communicate or at least understand it. The bad intentions of very few loud ones often prevents if the silent majority to have the chance to learn french, and of course, give a hard time to the french canadians outside Québec.

I am back from a vacation of 2 weeks in NB. I visited the Acadie and also areas where english is the most used language. When I taked to english people, I saw three types. Those who can do a little bit of french and are pride to show what they can do, those who cannot speak it and are sorry for it, and those who clearly don't give a f--- about french and are definitly not sorry to not being able to serve me in this official canadian language. I like to meet the real people living normal life like that. It changes from the hatred you often read in english medias or just here in this forum with the usual french bashing whiners.

Argos is right that it is not realist to change Canada into a bilingual country per say. Well, not in the short term for sure. But I think that if the spirit of encouraging bilingualism was real and efficient, a greater number of people than we could estimate would follow that path. I am working for a big company that employed several thousands of people. Among them, I'd say 30 percent are more confortable in english than french and when we speak with each others, it is not rare that we mix the conversation because we all understand both languages. I would speak french, my colleague speaks english and it is all fine. Not frenglish tho, that never sounds nice. I think that is the kind of spirit that should be encouraged in Canada. I see this as a mutual respect for both official languages and hopefully bring closer the 2 solitudes. We have to be realist, we cannot reproduce Canada wide what is going in my company but, just removing the obstacles would greatly improve the relations between french and english people of this country.

Now, how would it perceived in english canada? It only depend on how big is what I describ as the silent english majority. Maybe I get it wrong and the silent people are no majority. That is up to the english people to tell me. For many of you, I already know what you will going to say.

You are absolutely right.  As a child I remember at school wondering why I was learning French, until I visited Quebec and L’acadie in the Maritimes.  I ended up learning more French as an adult, and now I’m able to travel in France and Quebec and hold basic conversations in French.  I’ve tried to give my kids exposure to French too, including some French immersion.  It’s interesting and fun in Canada to learn about other cultures right in our own backyard.  Canada is becoming more billingual.  Ignore the nonsense on here from some of the commentators who stoke anti-billingual sentiment and wish to break up the country.  We have an interesting history and you’re right, many English Canadians want to learn French.  

Edited August 5, 2019 by Zeitgeist

[Benz]

18 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

I'm the English, Anglo Saxon Protestant Orangeman of Upper Canada, my family came to Canada when it was still Nouvelle France, in 1757, to invade Quebec with General Wolfe.

I say Les Deux Solitudes is a failed state, and that is the source of most of the corruption and dysfunction in Ottawa.

Thus I side with the Pequistes, the only way for me to be free, is to be free of Confederation,  the solution is; vive le Quebec, vive le Quebec libre.

I renounce all claims on the Plains of Abraham and give it back to the Quebecois with my best wishes and fond farewells.

Vive la Canadienne, je me souviens.

It is true that the liberals (both french and english) were clever to maintain the "2 solitudes" in its state for their own advantage. Corruption and dysfunction are appropriate words to describ that, I agree.

Although Quebec leaves, you are not free of the federation (the one you call wrongly confederation). The political maturity of english canada on the matter is not as developped as Quebec.

With or without Quebec, your problem remains the same. You do not like that federation model. Maybe you would prefer a real confederation (or maybe the english language, it is preferable ot use confederacy). Not sure I understand the subtle difference between those two words. But one thing for sure, the vision of what Canada should be is seen differently by the 2 solitudes. The english wants a centralised federation as it is right now, the french rather wants a decentralized confederacy giving provinces (should rather be states) more autonomy and sovereignty. Ironically, you want to get rid of the best ally to accomplish that. That makes me chuckle. But maybe you just want the collapse of Canada fair and square. Provinces would become all independant countries. Which can be problematic in the long run when you have a big elephant in the neighborhood like the USA. Not sure what you really want...

but then, it is another topic. This one is about the french in Canada.

[Dougie93]

Just now, Benz said:

It is true that the liberals (both french and english) were clever to maintain the "2 solitudes" in its state for their own advantage. Corruption and dysfunction are appropriate words to describ that, I agree.

Although Quebec leaves, you are not free of the federation (the one you call wrongly confederation). The political maturity of english canada on the matter is not as developped as Quebec.

With or without Quebec, your problem remains the same. You do not like that federation model. Maybe you would prefer a real confederation (or maybe the english language, it is preferable ot use confederacy). Not sure I understand the subtle difference between those two words. But one thing for sure, the vision of what Canada should be is seen differently by the 2 solitudes. The english wants a centralised federation as it is right now, the french rather wants a decentralized confederacy giving provinces (should rather be states) more autonomy and sovereignty. Ironically, you want to get rid of the best ally to accomplish that. That makes me chuckle. But maybe you just want the collapse of Canada fair and square. Provinces would become all independant countries. Which can be problematic in the long run when you have a big elephant in the neighborhood like the USA. Not sure what you really want...

but then, it is another topic. This one is about the french in Canada.

Oh I am aware that de-Confederation is no panacea. 

It's a process, the smaller the government the better, the Federal Government is a Self Licking Ice Cream Cone, totally expendable.

In the end, as an United Empire Loyalist Orangeman of Upper Canada.I am an American, that's where we come from, that's who are.

We are simply the Americans who remain loyal to the British Crown.  Canadian Confederation however, is sub national to the British Crown.

Even if only in the name of vengeance, I will seek to bring this ignominious racist apartheid police state federation down.

It is only my oath to Elizabeth Windsor which precludes me from making revolutionary war.

None the less, Her Majesty defends the right to peaceful democratic self determination under the Clarity Act to succeed from Confederation, now affirmed by the Supreme Court of Canada.

Vive le Quebec libre, God save the Queen, she has never forsaken me.

[Zeitgeist]

Canada will persist proudly and strongly with or without a monarch, though we may choose to keep that going for cultural reasons.  There’s certainly no big call to remove the Queen from our coinage.  All government of Canada decisions reside with the Canadian people, as it will always be.  The Canadian Confederation is loose. The Feds don’t take care of health or education, except as a supplement and for the Indigenous.  Break up Canada and it is immediately reconstituted, because more binds us than separates us.  We need the feds to operate our ports and service the far flung remote parts of the country with policing, trains and highways, postal service, and essential infrastructure.  

No Canada means the North and the Indigenous are screwed.  It also means less support of French language and culture outside Quebec.  When posters on here support Quebec independence, it’s because they don’t want any transfer payments to Quebec or any outside support of Franco-Canadian culture.  L’acadie gets screwed.  Do you want borders between provinces? Separate governments and militaries?  Passports and currencies?  

Canada isn’t perfect, but from what I’ve learned traveling and living in different countries, it’s about as good as it gets apart from the long winter — and breaking up Canada won’t change that.  We are stronger together.  The Americans understand that: E pluribus unum.  At some point I can see greater union with the US, but we must never give up our values, including our outward looking approach, acceptance of differences, and communitarian sensibility, which also means preventing major social ills and violence.  Peace, order, and responsible government from sea to sea to sea.  As long as guns proliferate in the US, we’ll keep our border.

When Rome started neglecting the security of its people, the barbarians got in and Rome declined for 1000 years.  Other empires entered the scene: the Visigoths, Atilla the Hun, Islam, the Merovingians, the Vikings, the Normans, the Spanish, the Italians, the French, the English, the Americans, _________ .  Sorry, I just came from the Colloseum and the Forum where you can see the decay of a great empire that present day Italy does not equal.  It’s instructive   I like Canada’s chances, especially if it remains outward looking, peaceful, and open for business. Civilizations based on good principles will outlast human made structures.

 

Edited August 5, 2019 by Zeitgeist

[Benz]

2 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Canada will persist proudly and strongly with or without a monarch, though we may choose to keep that going for cultural reasons.  There’s certainly no big call to remove the Queen from our coinage.  All government of Canada decisions reside with the Canadian people, as it will always be.  The Canadian Confederation is loose. The Feds don’t take care of health or education, except as a supplement and for the Indigenous.  Break up Canada and it is immediately reconstituted, because more binds us than separates us.  We need the feds to operate our ports and service the far flung remote parts of the country with policing, trains and highways, postal service, and essential infrastructure.  

No Canada means the North and the Indigenous are screwed.  It also means less support of French language and culture outside Quebec.  When posters on here support Quebec independence, it’s because they don’t want any transfer payments to Quebec or any outside support of Franco-Canadian culture.  L’acadie gets screwed.  Do you want borders between provinces? Separate governments and militaries?  Passports and currencies?  

Canada isn’t perfect, but from what I’ve learned traveling and living in different countries, it’s about as good as it gets apart from the long winter — and breaking up Canada won’t change that.  We are stronger together.  The Americans understand that: E pluribus unum.  At some point I can see greater union with the US, but we must never give up our values, including our outward looking approach, acceptance of differences, and communitarian sensibility, which also means preventing major social ills and violence.  Peace, order, and responsible government from sea to sea to sea.  As long as guns proliferate in the US, we’ll keep our border.

When Rome started neglecting the security of its people, the barbarians got in and Rome declined for 1000 years.  Other empires entered the scene: the Visigoths, Atilla the Hun, Islam, the Merovingians, the Vikings, the Normans, the Spanish, the Italians, the French, the English, the Americans, _________ .  Sorry, I just came from the Colloseum and the Forum where you can see the decay of a great empire that present day Italy does not equal.  It’s instructive   I like Canada’s chances, especially if it remains outward looking, peaceful, and open for business. Civilizations based on good principles will outlast human made structures.

 

Of course, Québec has a very different opinion about your queen. Québec is republican and the idea of one individual having such position based on its lineage, this is totally against our democratic principles. You might not feel any hurry to change that from your english position, but for Quebec, this is non sense. Although we respect the people who chooses that kind of system, because they can do whatever they want within their borders, this is definitely a big no for us.

|I wish the Feds don't take care of health and education, but unfortunatly, they do. Not that much for now, but they do. This is something Québec has always been against and the other provinces always betrayed us about that. In the sense that they say the feds should keep its hands out of it but, when the time comes to sign, they step down and side with the federal. Only québec has the balls to hold on. Only one man in english Canada never let us down on that subject, it is Mike Harris.

You say the Feds must policing many stuff like ports, etc... oh yueah it does, but who is policing the feds? When the Feds decided to deregulate the train transport and let the private sector regulate itself, what happened after? Several deads in a train crash in Mégantic. The decision of the Feds was completely imbecile. The provinces need more power to bring the Feds back on ... track.

So far, the french culture has survived despite Canada. If you say it would have been worst with the americans, I admit to agree. Very tiny consolation on your part.

Where I do totally reach you without reserves, is regarding the threat or being swallowed by USA. I see what is going on over there and suddenly I feel that our canadian problems are just amusements. As much as I want Quebec to be sovereign, I am also concerned about how Canada can collapse and become a feast for our imperialist neighbors. There is something good to do with this country, but leaving it as is the sure way to lead it to its destruction. Changes need to be done.

You barely talk about the native/indigenous. They are also nations that deserve the respect of their sovereignty, or at least for what they are capable to assume. The best way to avoid the end of Canada like the Roman Empire, is to adapt it to the reality of the people. Go back to the roots. What Canada really is about? It's a nation founded by the english, french and natives. Before and after the british destroyed the sovereignties of the two others. There are many different federation models in the world and some can inspire us, just as well as we can inspire others. A federation where their founding people can be proud of being what they are without being enemies in the opinion of the english majority. I dream of the day I would be just as proud of being canadien, like I am of being Québécois. Just like an Austrian can identify itself as both Austrian and European. We are not there yet. Natives identify themselve as Cree, Ojibway, Innu or else, but not as Canadians. That does not mean much for them. Same for the Québécois. English Canadians should really question themselve about what kind of Canada they want.  The one their former imperial leaders shaped with blood, or the one the actual living people are.

[Dougie93]

45 minutes ago, Benz said:

Of course, Québec has a very different opinion about your queen. Québec is republican and the idea of one individual having such position based on its lineage, this is totally against our democratic principles.

None the less, it is only the British Crown which defends and upholds a Clarity Act.

It is only Elizabeth Windsor who offers an opt out clause, most ethnic minorities live under an iron fist of repression, it is only the British Monarchy who defend Quebec's right to be French.

If Canada was a republic, it would make war upon the Quebecois for trying to succeed, it is the House of Windsor which stands between the Ottawa Federalists imposing their will on l'Assemblée nationale du Québec

Like all Canadian provinces, Quebec has a direct relationship with Buckingham Palace, and Buckingham Palace says that Quebec has the right to peaceful democratic self determination, no matter what the rest of the provinces have to say about it.

Edited August 5, 2019 by Dougie93

[Dougie93]

8 hours ago, Benz said:

Where I do totally reach you without reserves, is regarding the threat or being swallowed by USA. I see what is going on over there and suddenly I feel that our canadian problems are just amusements. As much as I want Quebec to be sovereign, I am also concerned about how Canada can collapse and become a feast for our imperialist neighbors.

You don't know the Americans then, because they do not want to add anybody else to America, it's not the 19th century, the Americans are not looking for more states, they wouldn't swallow you, they don't want you anymore than they want the Mexicans.

It would be no different than it is now, Canada doesn't protect you from the Americans anyways, Ottawa is a puppet of the Americans.

Zeitgeist is a typical Federalist, he will say everything is doomsday without Confederation, that's their routine.

When Quebec separates, Quebec will work with France and the EU more, the Americans won't care, the Americans are no threat to you.

Edited August 6, 2019 by Dougie93