Benz Posted August 7, 2019 Report Posted August 7, 2019 15 hours ago, Dougie93 said: And here's the thing, Quebec doesn't even have to have a referendum, Quebec could legitimately claim independence fait accompli Reason being, the Founding Families of Nouvelle France were never allowed self determination, a right which they now have under international law, thanks to Woodrow Wilson. The 60,000 Quebecois in Nouvelle France were never given a choice, they were signed over the the British Crown as a prize of war in the Treaty of Paris 1763. Same day and same way India was signed over to the British Crown. Canada and India were taken by the British in one fell swoop, birthing the British Empire. The Quebecois are not bound to ask the British for permission to be a republic anymore than India had to ask the British permission. The Viceroy can withdraw from Quebec just as Louis Mountbatten sailed away home from the British Raj in India, no referendum required. It is not our intention to ask permission to the British. We will rather ask the internation opinion to recognize our existence as a nation state. That is stronger than any other british crown rules or past agreement about the conquered territory where the force was used. 1 Quote
Dougie93 Posted August 7, 2019 Report Posted August 7, 2019 8 minutes ago, Benz said: It is not our intention to ask permission to the British. We will rather ask the internation opinion to recognize our existence as a nation state. That is stronger than any other british crown rules or past agreement about the conquered territory where the force was used. Oh, France will back Quebec, and that's an United Nations Security Council Permanent Five Member with Veto power and a thermonuclear deterrent. That's all the patrons Quebec will need at first, in the event anybody tries to waylay you. Quote
QuebecOverCanada Posted August 7, 2019 Report Posted August 7, 2019 Just now, Dougie93 said: Oh, France will back Quebec, and that's an United Nations Security Council Permanent Five Member with Veto power and a thermonuclear deterrent. That's all the patrons Quebec will need at first, in the event anybody tries to waylay you. You think the US would oppose Québec separation? Give me a break. Quote
Dougie93 Posted August 7, 2019 Report Posted August 7, 2019 2 minutes ago, QuebecOverCanada said: You think the US would oppose Québec separation? Give me a break. No, the Americans don't want to get involved, but once Quebec leaves the United Kingdom - United States Security Agreement Five Eyes and Joint Strategic Deterrent, Quebec will need a patron to fill that gap, and quite sure the French are standing by to replace America as Quebec's chief ally. France will back Quebec, the way the Americans back Israel. Quote
QuebecOverCanada Posted August 7, 2019 Report Posted August 7, 2019 1 minute ago, Dougie93 said: No, the Americans don't want to get involved, but once Quebec leaves the United Kingdom - United States Security Agreement Five Eyes and Joint Strategic Deterrent, Quebec will need a patron to fill that gap, and quite sure the French are standing by to replace America as Quebec's chief ally. France will back Quebec, the way the Americans back Israel. I don't think so. France has too many internal problems, it is losing its grip on Africa because China is taking over, while France is receding despite military involvement in the region. The Americans would totally agree with Québec separation, just like they gave the green light to separatists in 1995. Quote
Dougie93 Posted August 7, 2019 Report Posted August 7, 2019 (edited) 15 minutes ago, QuebecOverCanada said: I don't think so. France has too many internal problems, it is losing its grip on Africa because China is taking over, while France is receding despite military involvement in the region. Don't be silly, France is in a constant state of upheaval, how many revolutions have they had? How many times have they been invaded? That's what it is to be French. The Foreign Legion once tried to assassinate De Gaulle and stage a coup in Paris, but you think France has internal problems now? Please, you have no perspective apparently. As to the Sahel, the Chinese are barely there, the French are back in the Sahel in a big way, from Senegal all the way to CAR, and besides, the French work closely with the Chinese, France and China are not mortal enemies. Edited August 7, 2019 by Dougie93 Quote
Benz Posted August 7, 2019 Report Posted August 7, 2019 6 hours ago, Zeitgeist said: Quebec is recognized as a nation in a loose federation. If it’s about greater autonomy, in what specific areas would Quebec want greater autonomy than it already has? Keep in mind that economics do play a role and other provinces require the same economic opportunities, and if even one of them deems it unfair (as in Meech), the same autonomy. What we have now is asymmetrical federalism, with Quebec having more control than other provinces. Is it everything Quebecers want? Perhaps not, but Alberta certainly isn’t getting everything it wants and has contributed a great deal to transfer payments of which Quebec has been a recipient. I don’t deny that there are Quebecers who want change, including yourself, but all parts of Canada want changes and it’s impossible to meet all of the interests of one province without creating issues elsewhere. It’s a matter of compromise. We all give up a few things because the whole has more advantages than the sum of its parts. We achieve more together. No one part of the country is better than another part. I will tell you that the people of Nunavut consider themselves no less a people than the people of Quebec. Newfoundlanders have similar pride. Quebec is s treasured part of Canada and no one is making Quebec or any other part of the country remain in Canada. The people of each province decide. The people of Quebec have so far decided to remain in Canada. You can say that the process of a referendum wasn’t fair or perfect. I know many federalists felt that the referendum question was misleading because it mentioned things that might not actually happen in a yes vote. For example there is no guarantee of sovereignty association, use of the same passport, currency, etc. Again, I’m sure separatists disagree. The important thing is that unless and until a referendum occurs which takes Quebec out of Canada, we should do our best to make Canada work. Everyone agrees on that and there has been some progress, I think. Canadians probably have more to worry about from Alberta right now, which is getting very impatient with Quebec and B.C. You do not talk like someone aware of the content of Meech and the 5 traditional requirements Québec claims. When I say Quebec, I include Quebec federalist like Bourrassa, the one who settle those 5 conditions. In 1981, there were no compromises. Quebec has been kicked out and isolated. It is still today, the best reason to separate. It is still today the same system, same constitution. Don't bother trying to make a point about "we can't please everyone". Our conditions are totally legitimated and no european countries would have accepted the existence of the EU without them. They are 20, with 20 different languages and cultures, and they get along better than us with only 2 official languages. Unless you bring me a paper from the doctor stating that you are an inferior race not capable to get along with people, there are no reasons to behave like that with us. It is the pure old form of imperialism and nothing else. It's no different than with the natives as well. You won't see it, if you do not want to see it. In 1981, Lévesque did a huge concession. He gave up on the Quebec veto claim and in exchange, he wanted all provinces to get an Opt Out of federal program with full compensation to all provinces. 7 other provinces agreed with me that it would be a great thing. They were called the group of eight. Then Trudeau said, ok, I will support your idea and in return, help me to convince the 7 others to accept a referendum. The next morning, the 7 others betrayed and back stab Quebec to sign a new constitution without Quebec. For Meech, he whole country betrayed Quebec again for what? Cause one man somewhere was not happy? I am gonna tell you this straight. As an Anglo, you have no credibility to do me the moral about compromises. Quebec did compromises all the time and as been betrayed every time. It's like if Germans would be moralists to the Jews regarding the racism. Compromises is what your people should have done. When you slam the door in our face, this has nothing to do with compromises. You do not have to convince me about the advantages of stick together. I am already sold to the idea of an adequate federalism that fits the face of the actual Canada. We all get benefits on the geo-political concerns to be united. That part, I am all in. What I refuse, is the actual conditions that were set without us and against our interests. People of Quebec has decided by a tiny margin to stay in Canada, yep... but keep in mind that 60% of the french decided to break free. You need to thank the cheaters for that. If you are satisfied with the outcome despite the results, good for you. Keep sleeping on your both ears. Everything is just fine. The question was clear. It was about giving sovereignty to the people. But added to the question, it was bounded also an obligation to the government of Quebec to offer partnership. It did not garanty or make the sovereignty conditional to the acceptance of the offer to the english Canada. The people who do not understand that, are by coincidence the same people who does not understand what Quebec wants. In clear, the same kind of people who will never understand anything because they do not want to. As long as the international community understands it, it's good enough. We do not need you to understand a question that is not addressed to you. Regarding Alberta, it's not something that can't be solved. Their concerns are only economical, not political. The difficulty lies in the logistics and conflict of interests. This is the kind of thing that Ottawa has a great pleasure to turn us all against one another. Quote
Benz Posted August 7, 2019 Report Posted August 7, 2019 25 minutes ago, QuebecOverCanada said: I don't think so. France has too many internal problems, it is losing its grip on Africa because China is taking over, while France is receding despite military involvement in the region. The Americans would totally agree with Québec separation, just like they gave the green light to separatists in 1995. I do not know where you get your sources but, I suggest you ask few to Dougie93. China is not grasping its hand on Quebec and Quebec is nothing like any African countries. Close ties with a north american country like Quebec would not only benefit France, but the whole EU. Especially since they lost UK, the home of the British Queendom, sovereign of Canada. Quote
Dougie93 Posted August 7, 2019 Report Posted August 7, 2019 30 minutes ago, Benz said: Close ties with a north american country like Quebec would not only benefit France, but the whole EU. Especially since they lost UK, the home of the British Queendom, sovereign of Canada. Exactly, the French would love to expand their position in North America, and through Quebec do much more business in America. Quote
QuebecOverCanada Posted August 7, 2019 Report Posted August 7, 2019 31 minutes ago, Benz said: I do not know where you get your sources but, I suggest you ask few to Dougie93. China is not grasping its hand on Quebec and Quebec is nothing like any African countries. Close ties with a north american country like Quebec would not only benefit France, but the whole EU. Especially since they lost UK, the home of the British Queendom, sovereign of Canada. It would benefit Americans too to have Canada split up and have Québec as an ally in the process to annex the other Canadian provinces such as Alberta. Quote
Dougie93 Posted August 7, 2019 Report Posted August 7, 2019 3 minutes ago, QuebecOverCanada said: It would benefit Americans too to have Canada split up and have Québec as an ally in the process to annex the other Canadian provinces such as Alberta. The Americans have no interest in annexation because that no longer serves any purpose in the 21st century, the Americans already have access to Canada, they don't need to put boots on the ground to have that, Canada must bring its resources to market, all the Americans care about is markets, they're not concerned as to what language people speak, because momey talks and bullshit walks, same as it ever was. Quote
Dougie93 Posted August 7, 2019 Report Posted August 7, 2019 Also bear in mind that Quebec is a hydro-electric superpower which keeps the lights on in New York City and the rest of the Northeast. The falling waters in Quebec are worth more than the oil in Alberta. Quote
Zeitgeist Posted August 7, 2019 Report Posted August 7, 2019 7 hours ago, Dougie93 said: Exactly, the French would love to expand their position in North America, and through Quebec do much more business in America. But France gave up its obligations to Quebec in a treaty centuries ago. It has internal security and economic threats. How and why would it take on Quebec? I don’t think sovereigntists want Quebec to return to being a colonial outpost of a mother country. Quote
Dougie93 Posted August 8, 2019 Report Posted August 8, 2019 7 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said: But France gave up its obligations to Quebec in a treaty centuries ago. It has internal security and economic threats. How and why would it take on Quebec? I don’t think sovereigntists want Quebec to return to being a colonial outpost of a mother country. The House of Bourbon signed that treaty, the French Republic never agreed to leave Quebec to the mercy of the British. Why would France take it on? Because they are same as Quebec, they too seek to preserve and protect the French language and culture. Quote
Zeitgeist Posted August 8, 2019 Report Posted August 8, 2019 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Dougie93 said: The House of Bourbon signed that treaty, the French Republic never agreed to leave Quebec to the mercy of the British. Why would France take it on? Because they are same as Quebec, they too seek to preserve and protect the French language and culture. Interesting, so you support alliances along ethnic lines: Anglo-Canada-US, France-Quebec. Feels retrograde to me. I think the ethno-nationalist approach, as opposed to the rules-based constitutional approach, is a dated model that breeds Balkanization. It’s back to the Brexit vs.Remain argument. Edited August 8, 2019 by Zeitgeist Quote
Dougie93 Posted August 8, 2019 Report Posted August 8, 2019 4 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said: Interesting, so you support alliances along ethnic lines: Anglo-Canada-US, France-Quebec. Feels retrograde to me. I think the ethno-nationalist approach, as opposed to the rules-based constitutional approach, is a dated model that breeds Balkanization. It’s back to the Brexit vs.Remain argument. I defend and uphold the British Crown, British is not a race, British is not a place, British is a system of governance. None the less, there is no mandate whatsoever for the British Crown to deny others from choosing to live in an ethno-nationalist state. Quote
Benz Posted August 8, 2019 Report Posted August 8, 2019 14 hours ago, Zeitgeist said: But France gave up its obligations to Quebec in a treaty centuries ago. It has internal security and economic threats. How and why would it take on Quebec? I don’t think sovereigntists want Quebec to return to being a colonial outpost of a mother country. Québec will never become a TOM-DOM of the France. If it becomes sovereign, it will stay sovereign. We are rather talking about economical partnership. But it would rather be an influence of the French in the EU to create close ties with Quebec, rather than just a one on one France-Quebec. Quote
Army Guy Posted August 9, 2019 Report Posted August 9, 2019 On 8/8/2019 at 11:26 AM, Benz said: Québec will never become a TOM-DOM of the France. If it becomes sovereign, it will stay sovereign. We are rather talking about economical partnership. But it would rather be an influence of the French in the EU to create close ties with Quebec, rather than just a one on one France-Quebec. That would depend on how well the divorce goes, would it not, I mean there are a million things to work out before Quebec actually leaves right...things like currency, government type, policing, military aspects, actual borders , then the St Lawrence sea way, Native Americans, the list goes on....or are we just going to have the vote....and wing it from there....and if for some reason things do not go well in the divorce, maybe the ROC is not going to play nice, I mean as you have said before they have bent Quebec over a table before right.... I can see France offering economical Aid or assistance ,maybe some policing / military assistance, but at what cost, will it cost you some or a lot of your sovereignty in return...I'm thinking it would be good for France to have direct access to the NA market , it would be a great motivator would it not. Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Benz Posted August 12, 2019 Report Posted August 12, 2019 On 8/9/2019 at 5:31 PM, Army Guy said: That would depend on how well the divorce goes, would it not, I mean there are a million things to work out before Quebec actually leaves right...things like currency, government type, policing, military aspects, actual borders , then the St Lawrence sea way, Native Americans, the list goes on....or are we just going to have the vote....and wing it from there....and if for some reason things do not go well in the divorce, maybe the ROC is not going to play nice, I mean as you have said before they have bent Quebec over a table before right.... I can see France offering economical Aid or assistance ,maybe some policing / military assistance, but at what cost, will it cost you some or a lot of your sovereignty in return...I'm thinking it would be good for France to have direct access to the NA market , it would be a great motivator would it not. It is very possible. That is why I think Canada will change its attitude toward Quebec and will be more nice then it ever been. At that step, offering candies like in the past just won't work. I beleive Canada will be very open to the ideas of political partnership (maybe confederacy) that Quebec will offer. Not because the federal like it, because I am 100% sure other provinces will say, if it is good for Quebec, it's good for us too. Ottawa will struggle with a Quebec that has a mandate to leave and the other provinces that might say, "what makes you think you are still legitimated to talk in my name?". Maybe the provinces will all decide to push Ottawa aside and build a new federation provincing more flexibility. I can think of some provinces that would go this path, while I know many others who wouldn't. Ottawa won't have it easy. Quote
Army Guy Posted August 12, 2019 Report Posted August 12, 2019 I by no means is the subject matter expert on this topic, what I say Is my opinion only....I also want to see Canada remain whole with all it's provinces and territories intact/ together, and if that means giving a few things, or adding a few things to the constitution, then so be it ….lets getter done... but it is not going to be that easy, nothing ever is. But I don't see it the way you do, I see Canada being in the driver seat, when it comes to "most" of the negotiations, things like a land corridor between Atlantic provinces and Ontario, Native American Indians lands will have to be respected or redrawn...these two issues alone are going to be tough for Quebec to swallow...as it will redefine Quebec's borders....and in a lot of cases hard core separatists will have to move or remain Canadians...Not all Quebecor's want to separate...and what happens if they can't sell their land or homes, I add that because when Yugo broke up, many families did not leave their homes, the new land owners did not want their kind on their land, the military was used to remove them through ethic cleansing....not saying this is going to happen, but their is not many separations that went well....and most end in violence....Canada is not immune to this....I mean how would you feel about the federal government deciding your new borders, .... I think the day Quebec separates will be the beginning of the end for Canada, the feds already know this will have a snowball effect, so the feds might not be offering anything that the other provinces don't already have, afraid of what they will loss if it does snowball...Remember Alberta and Saskatchewan also have a taste for separation...and most of them are tired of one thing Quebec's transfer payment...which could be cut to satisfy those provinces....it cuts both ways...and it is not always going to look as good as it sounds on paper.... Ottawa is going to struggle with this entire topic, for sure... I would not want to have to solve this problem...and I definitely don't want the current liberals tackling it... If it is not solved quickly both economies will suffer greatly...our dollar will plummet in value, Atlantic Canada will suffer greatly if their is no corridor between ROC....and normally when things come to a stalemate thats when other options are looked at.. such as use of force, cutting Quebec off of items like currency, freedom of travel, forcing payment for Federal infra structure...of course this works both ways, only Quebec has no military force to enforce any of these options , again this is another area that perhaps France could help....but what is it going to cost, and would they even consider it, not even sure how the US would take this new development.... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
blackbird Posted October 26, 2022 Report Posted October 26, 2022 I have no problem with Quebec having their own language and culture. After all, that is how Canada developed from the early settlers 500 years ago. I don't have much use for politicians trying to make the rest of Canada bilingual though. I don't see the point in forcing people to learn a language which 95 or 98% of the people in an area or province do not speak. That is a kind of social engineering or big brother ideology. If people want to learn French in other provinces, fine. I have no problem with that. That is by choice. People should have the freedom to learn to speak whatever they wish. I have had a couple close friends who were francophone. They contributed a lot to my life and we had some fine times together. Quote
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