China and extradition of Meng

[Mikeyboy]

Thanks to our so called friend,USA government,Canada finds itself to be in a hopeless position with reference to Meng extradition.Trump seems to be using  her arrest as a bargaining chip for a trade deal and China fails to understand why we are obeying an international law.The Chinese govt is determined to hurt us ecomically.What can and should we do to solve this issue?.(please,insulting Trudeau is not a solution,it's just a rant)

[OftenWrong]

Cancel Huawei contract.

[cougar]

7 hours ago, Mikeyboy said:

Thanks to our so called friend,USA government,Canada finds itself to be in a hopeless position with reference to Meng extradition.Trump seems to be using  her arrest as a bargaining chip for a trade deal and China fails to understand why we are obeying an international law.The Chinese govt is determined to hurt us ecomically.What can and should we do to solve this issue?.(please,insulting Trudeau is not a solution,it's just a rant)

If Canada ever had solid plans for the future, we would have kept most of our manufacturing in Canada and been more or less independent from China and immune to such petty conflicts.

But we've allowed to both China and the States to have us by the balls.  So Meng or no Meng, this is the situation.  Every time we do something that they disagree with, or can pressure us to have it their way, they will.

Edited May 6, 2019 by cougar

[Zeitgeist]

1 hour ago, cougar said:

If Canada ever had solid plans for the future, we would have kept most of our manufacturing in Canada and been more or less independent from China and immune to such petty conflicts.

But we've allowed to both China and the States to have us by the balls.  So Meng or no Meng, this is the situation.  Every time we do something that they disagree with, or can pressure us to have it their way, they will.

Stop Chinese imports and don’t ratify USMCA?  Alternatively, free Meng because the case for extradition is dubious.  However, China has mistreated Canada big time.  The US hasn’t been much better.  

Edited May 6, 2019 by Zeitgeist

[OftenWrong]

7 hours ago, cougar said:

Every time we do something that they disagree with, or can pressure us to have it their way, they will.

Not necessarily, if we have the US as our ally. If I were Prime Minister I would be seriously considering cancelling Huawei, not the least reason due to the security concerns raised by the United States. This move by Canada would also be of value to the US, as they are engaged in a trade dispute with China. By taking a stand against Huawei, Canada is not only sending a message to China, but to other allied countries who might also be considering doing business with them: Don't buy Huawei.

So what does our PM do? Exact opposite. Canada is now "demanding" that USA help us with China, and at the same time is threatening to hold back on trade negotiations with the US. That approach is completely nonsensical. Threaten your friends if they don't help you? I can't see Donald Trump being interested in that. But he might be interested if we discuss a strategy to punish China through Huawei, one that could be tied to better trade deals with the US in exchange for taking the financial hit.

[Michael Hardner]

52 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

Not necessarily, if we have the US as our ally.

You just agreed on another thread that they are competitors.  Are you starting to see what is wrong with a zero sum perspective?  I guess we could just build an economic wall, huh?

[OftenWrong]

8 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

You just agreed on another thread that they are competitors.  Are you starting to see what is wrong with a zero sum perspective?  I guess we could just build an economic wall, huh?

Sorry, I don't recall. Different context. Is there anything wrong with being a competitor, and an ally? No.

[Michael Hardner]

3 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

Sorry, I don't recall. Different context. Is there anything wrong with being a competitor, and an ally? No.

Not at all unless somebody tells you you can't be both and you say on this thread that you can be ?

[OftenWrong]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

Not at all unless somebody tells you you can't be both and you say on this thread that you can be ?

I have no idea what you're getting at. If you have a point to make, let's hear it. Better yet, how about stick to the thread topic, fella? That would be great because we're trying to have a discussion here.

[Michael Hardner]

7 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

 That would be great because we're trying to have a discussion here.

Is trade zero-sum or not ?  Can a country be both an ally and a competitor ?  You seem to be saying trade isn't zero sum, and partners can also compete which I agree with.

[OftenWrong]

If you mean in terms of money, I say it depends on if you look short term or long term. But there is always net gain for everyone; which comes from the energy of the labour force and the use of natural resources.

Relevance to thread topic?

[Rue]

On ‎5‎/‎5‎/‎2019 at 4:55 PM, Mikeyboy said:

Thanks to our so called friend,USA government,Canada finds itself to be in a hopeless position with reference to Meng extradition.Trump seems to be using  her arrest as a bargaining chip for a trade deal and China fails to understand why we are obeying an international law.The Chinese govt is determined to hurt us ecomically.What can and should we do to solve this issue?.(please,insulting Trudeau is not a solution,it's just a rant)

I can't stand Trudeau but I agree with you blaming him is pointless. My answer to you is let it play out. What do I mean? Our extradition process is slow but it will settle the issue. In our law, we can NOT extradite someone to the US if the law they are being requested extradition for does not exist in Canada. So it could be on that ground alone the extradition treaty might be thrown out because it could be argued there is no law in Canada prohibiting trade with Iran. Next Meng was questioned 3 hours prior to being charged and apparently she may not have been properly have advised of her legal rights to a lawyer and being charged properly before the questions were asked which may be a grounds to throw out the extradition for having violated her Charter Rights. Thirdly TRump has stated publically he would send Meng back to China if the US could get a good trade deal with China. He is on public record as having said that. When he did that he created a third legal ground in Canada to throw out the extradition request which is-if it can be argued the intent of the extradition process is political and not just legal, then it can be thrown out.

So there are actually 3 possible grounds to throw out the extradition treaty that could play out. Let's see if they do. That would resolve it. If that doesn't the practical reality is that if Trudeau is not re-elected, and China can save face and not have to deal with Trudeau who they feel lied to them about not being able to do anything and involve himself in the criminal process when he was doing just that with Lavalin, if Trudeau is gone as a major irritant to China as they feel lied to by him and have lost face, with a new leader, that new leader can then go to Trump and say ok buddy in the best interests of everyone drop it-continue with us as you did Trudeau and we will deal with China off the record and make it clear to them you have us by the balls so the best thing both China and we can do is BOTH take trade away from you  by working together and we will go to China and play that out.

What you see happening now is Trump is using Hu Wei to punish Canada over not just taking trade away from the US with China to Canada, which I am sorry Trudeau started by stating publically he would right before the US engaged in trade talks with China but also over free trade period. Trump hates the new Nafta and wants it sabotaged. He also feels Canada's pulling out of the F35 deal because we are now saying there is no spin off economic effects beneficial to Canada is a reason to punish us as well.

Some of this mess is directly because of Trudeau. Some if it would have gone down Trudeau or no Trudeau just  because its Trump and Trump has turned on every one of h is allies nit just Canada.

My theory is Trump is a Putin stooge manipulated by Putin to commit chaos in the Western alliance network.

[bush_cheney2004]

11 minutes ago, Rue said:

...My theory is Trump is a Putin stooge manipulated by Putin to commit chaos in the Western alliance network.

 

Nice theory....no proof.    I guess Obama and Bush #43 were also Putin stooges that made those U.S. presidents also impose tariffs, stop dumping, Buy American, and demand more NATO spending contributions from deadbeats like Canada.

Even with Trump, the U.S. contributes far more to the "Western alliance network" than does Canada.

Edited May 7, 2019 by bush_cheney2004

[Rue]

1 hour ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Nice theory....no proof.    I guess Obama and Bush #43 were also Putin stooges that made those U.S. presidents also impose tariffs, stop dumping, Buy American, and demand more NATO spending contributions from deadbeats like Canada.

Even with Trump, the U.S. contributes far more to the "Western alliance network" than does Canada.

I need no theory about Trump being compromised by and a step and fetch it for Putin. He performed oral sex on him in public at their last press conference.

Canada has pulled its weight in Afghanistan, Iraq with the Kurds and in Ukraine.

Canada's armed forces are underfunded yes. Harper did far more for the Western alliance then Obama did. Don't pose Trump as a supporter of the West or its network.-from the day he was elected he has been tearing it down.

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/07/10/trump-europe-nato-britain-putin-706138

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/17/world/europe/trump-international-relations-munich.html

https://thewalrus.ca/the-historical-roots-of-trumps-anger-with-canada/

https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/05/18/can-the-u-s-europe-alliance-survive-trump/

Edited May 7, 2019 by Rue

[bush_cheney2004]

19 minutes ago, Rue said:

Canada's armed forces are underfunded yes. Harper did far more for the Western alliance then Obama did. Don't pose Trump as a supporter of the West or its network.-from the day he was elected he has been tearing it down.

 

Really?  It was Obama who towed Canada's broke dick supply ship back to port.

Canada is no longer a "middle power".....and cannot sustain independent air or naval operations abroad.   

Canada is a NATO deadbeat...and China can smell the weakness from across the Pacific ocean.

[Rue]

Obama towed nothing. Please don't pose Obama now as a champion of US foreign policy either. Give it a rest with the American jingoism. The fact that Canada

has very real  military shortcomings does not make either Obama or Trump pro Western. Don't be absurd. Obama was a Muslim Brotherhood stooge and Trump is a Putin stooge, Bush Jr. was a Haliburton stooge, Clinton a China stooge, Bush Sr. and Reagan, Saudi stooges. Your last genuine world leader was JFK Jr. 

Please do not pose Trump or Obama in the same breath as JFK Jr., Eisenhower, Truman, FDR.

[bush_cheney2004]

1 minute ago, Rue said:

Obama towed nothing. Please don't pose Obama now as a champion of US foreign policy either. Give it a rest with the American jingoism. The fact that Canada

has very real  military shortcomings does not make either Obama or Trump pro Western. Don't be absurd. Obama was a Muslim Brotherhood stooge and Trump is a Putin stooge, Bush Jr. was a Haliburton stooge, Clinton a China stooge, Bush Sr. and Reagan, Saudi stooges. Your last genuine world leader was JFK Jr. 

Please do not pose Trump or Obama in the same breath as JFK Jr., Eisenhower, Truman, FDR.

 

Interesting....why are you so concerned about the policies of so many foreign leaders ?

Could it be that their actions mean a whole lot more than Canada's, and especially Mr. Socks ?

China can certainly see the weakness and impotence, even from a simple extradition request (Meng).

Here is a photo of USNS Sioux (T-ATF 171) towing Canada's crippled HMCS Protecteur into port (Hawaii)....March 2014....President Obama's watch.

 

[Rue]

Canada's deficiencies are one issue, Trump's foreign policy another. You again engage in your one trick pony approach to all issues which is to point out Canada's military is broke. Yes it is. That does not change what Trump foreign policy is about.

[bush_cheney2004]

4 minutes ago, Rue said:

Canada's deficiencies are one issue, Trump's foreign policy another. You again engage in your one trick pony approach to all issues which is to point out Canada's military is broke. Yes it is. That does not change what Trump foreign policy is about.

 

It is not just me...or Canada's weak military....it is Canada's weak leadership:

 

Quote

Make no mistake: China is targeting Canada, and not the United States, because they see us as both weak and anxious for closer economic ties, an image reinforced by Ottawa’s previously fawning words for China. If Canadians did not already understand the odious and thuggish nature of the regime that their government has been seeking to embrace on their behalf, Mr. Schellenberg’s case should dispel all doubts.

 

China respects strength, not weakness....

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-china-smells-weakness-so-its-picking-on-canada/

 

Trump is not responsible for Canada...that's Trudeau's job...and (he and his party) are failing miserably.

[Zeitgeist]

3 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

It is not just me...or Canada's weak military....it is Canada's weak leadership:

 

 

Trump is not responsible for Canada...that's Trudeau's job...and (he and his party) are failing miserably.

Canada has to increase military spending for its independence, not because we haven’t contributed enough to NATO and western security.  Canada’s infrastructure and policing supports in Afghanistan and northern Iraq, on top of combat contributions, are significant.  Factor in our massive public spending on Syrian refugees, basically the cleanup costs of failed US foreign intervention, and the size of the contributions is perhaps excessive.  

I hope the next government of Canada says fuck you to China on human rights and imports and rips up USMCA.  I’d also like to see more ice breakers, fighter jets, naval capacity, and trade agreements with Africa, South America, and Asia minus China.  

Edited May 7, 2019 by Zeitgeist

[bush_cheney2004]

52 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Canada has to increase military spending for its independence, not because we haven’t contributed enough to NATO and western security.  Canada’s infrastructure and policing supports in Afghanistan and northern Iraq, on top of combat contributions, are significant.  Factor in our massive public spending on Syrian refugees, basically the cleanup costs of failed US foreign intervention, and the size of the contributions is perhaps excessive. 

 

Canada can do whatever the hell it wants to do, but don't keep whining about Trump while begging him to protect the "post WW2 order" and Canadian interests.

 

Quote

I hope the next government of Canada says fuck you to China on human rights and imports and rips up USMCA.  I’d also like to see more ice breakers, fighter jets, naval capacity, and trade agreements with Africa, South America, and Asia minus China.  

 

That's the funny part....the Liberals said just that about FTA/NAFTA, but now they love it and Canada is now even more dependent on U.S. trade and direct investment.

Edited May 7, 2019 by bush_cheney2004

[Zeitgeist]

50 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Canada can do whatever the hell it wants to do, but don't keep whining about Trump while begging him to protect the "post WW2 order" and Canadian interests.

 

 

That's the funny part....the Liberals said just that about FTA/NAFTA, but now they love it and Canada is now even more dependent on U.S. trade and direct investment.

Who loves it?  It was all a big compromising scam.  As for the WW2 order: I think it’s in the US’s interests to protect it as much as or more than Canada’s.  The US was attacked at Pearl Harbour in WW2 and the World Trade Centre on 9/11.  The US has many enemies.  You may want to respect your allies.  You may need them. 

Edited May 7, 2019 by Zeitgeist

[bush_cheney2004]

15 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Who loves it?  It was all a big compromising scam.  As for the WW2 order: I think it’s in the US’s interests to protect it as much as or more than Canada’s.  The US was attacked at Pearl Harbour in WW2 and the World Trade Centre on 9/11.  The US has many enemies.  You may want to respect your allies.  You may need them. 

 

Who loves it ?    The Canadian economy, as it has no other equivalent options at the moment.

Of course you think it's in the USA's interest to protect NATO deadbeat Canada...much cheaper that way !!!

Strength is respected...not weakness.   Just ask China.

 

Edited May 7, 2019 by bush_cheney2004

[Zeitgeist]

6 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Who loves it ?    The Canadian economy, as it has no other equivalent options at the moment.

Of course you think it's in the USA's interest to protect NATO deadbeat Canada...much cheaper that way !!!

Strength is respected...not weakness.   Just ask China.

 

I think if you look at Canada’s contributions to peace internationally for the country’s population and the size of its economy, the record is impressive.  You can make people do as you like through force as long as you’re willing to pay for the arms and the police/surveillance to maintain fear.  Winning hearts and minds through policies that ensure freedom, self-determination and economic opportunity is far more effective in the long run and requires little oversight.  In fact some deterrent force is necessary, but are you suggesting that smaller countries should simply be taken and occupied by force?  Good luck with that.  It’s been tried many times and doesn’t work.  Better to work with countries for positive common values and share military expenditures.  The US military is twice as large as it needs to be and goes on trouble making adventures to justify itself that we all have to pay for.  

[bush_cheney2004]

1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said:

I think if you look at Canada’s contributions to peace internationally for the country’s population and the size of its economy, the record is impressive.  You can make people do as you like through force as long as you’re willing to pay for the arms and the police/surveillance to maintain fear.  Winning hearts and minds through policies that ensure freedom, self-determination and economic opportunity is far more effective in the long run and requires little oversight. 

 

Not any more...Canada has the 10th or so largest economy in the world but no longer even wields significant "soft power".   Peacekeeping has withered away as well.   And sending garbage to third world nations (and refusing to take it back) does not win hearts and minds.    Canada has poorer relations with many nations now.

 

Quote

In fact some deterrent force is necessary, but are you suggesting that smaller countries should simply be taken and occupied by force?  Good luck with that.  It’s been tried many times and doesn’t work.  Better to work with countries for positive common values and share military expenditures.  The US military is twice as large as it needs to be and goes on trouble making adventures to justify itself that we all have to pay for.  

 

Fine....the U.S. can reduce all defence spending to below Canada's level and let the deadbeats worry about the aftermath.   Don't come whining to Trump (or Obama or Bush or etc.) to protect Canadian interests or the post WW2 order.  Just wait for WW3 instead.