GM packing its bags in Oshawa

[taxme]

16 hours ago, Machjo said:

Again, the problem is not with immigration but with the welfare programs. More immigrants means more consumers. do you really want to deprive the Canadian economy of a larger consumer base?

More immigration means more infrastructure needed, more health and social services required, and more attacks on the environment which the environmentalists are always whining and crying about. Canadians now have the control and mess your life up politically correct politicians that want to implement carbon taxes because there are more people now living in Canada. And you want to tell me that immigration is not the problem? More immigration is the problem. 

Why do you think that Canada needs a larger consumer base anyway? Just so we can all see more people walking and driving around and cutting more trees down and digging up the ground for more new homes and businesses? Do you want to see my traffic gridlock? Canada was doing just fine fifty years ago before our politicians went mad and decided that they wanted to flood Canada with hundreds of thousands of new immigrants every year. Now Canada has to have more infrastructure and more services because of more new immigrants.

So just what are you not getting here?  

[cannuck]

14 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

The stakes are too high for workers and whole economies to let unnecessary collapses happen.  GM is too integrated with government and the wider Canadian and US economies to be permitted to slash thousands of workers while corporate is making massive profits.  No.  We need policies that impact auto makers' sales when they attempt to slash workforces in a period of rising profits.  To do any less is irresponsible.  Don't give a shit about GM CEO's automation, globally competitive, EV plan.  There are more important plans needed to protect decent living standards.  

Just to put it into perspective, at the time of NAFTA being ratified, 72% of all trade between the largest trading partners on the planet was cars and car parts.   We may have other value added industries, but they are dwarfed by the automobile business.  We are so short of diversification, it leaves us extremely vulnerable to the vagueries of markets.  What we NEED is far more distance between government and business.  The ineptitude of ANY political entity and the massive army of totally useless tits in the bureaucracy trying to meddle in business results in people who can (and ARE) bought for a sack of beans picking winners and losers.

If you want to "protect decent living standards" invest your money directly in Canadian business.   If you just hand it over to a bank, you are feeding the very mechanism that results in companies in the hands of finance that will do what is best for their ability to manipulate stock values to cash in on business activity that creates no wealth at all.   The idea that the world of business owes the world of labour anything after the day of the last paycheque is total nonsense.  Yes, a GOOD employer will have great sensitivity and feel obliged to his employees, but large companies owned and controlled by large financial entities could care less.   Look in the mirror when you want to find someone to blame.  We have to INVEST and be actively involved in creating wealth, and realize that you will seldom if ever see more than a 5% dividend - i.e. be a capitalist.   What we/you DO, though is give money to banks/finance with the hope of the speculative value of stock increasing far more than that (casino capitalism) resulting no wealth being created, but definitely inflationary forces.

As I think someone already mentioned in this thread:  government is NEVER the solution, only the problem.

Edited December 1, 2018 by cannuck

[Zeitgeist]

4 hours ago, cannuck said:

Just to put it into perspective, at the time of NAFTA being ratified, 72% of all trade between the largest trading partners on the planet was cars and car parts.   We may have other value added industries, but they are dwarfed by the automobile business.  We are so short of diversification, it leaves us extremely vulnerable to the vagueries of markets.  What we NEED is far more distance between government and business.  The ineptitude of ANY political entity and the massive army of totally useless tits in the bureaucracy trying to meddle in business results in people who can (and ARE) bought for a sack of beans picking winners and losers.

If you want to "protect decent living standards" invest your money directly in Canadian business.   If you just hand it over to a bank, you are feeding the very mechanism that results in companies in the hands of finance that will do what is best for their ability to manipulate stock values to cash in on business activity that creates no wealth at all.   The idea that the world of business owes the world of labour anything after the day of the last paycheque is total nonsense.  Yes, a GOOD employer will have great sensitivity and feel obliged to his employees, but large companies owned and controlled by large financial entities could care less.   Look in the mirror when you want to find someone to blame.  We have to INVEST and be actively involved in creating wealth, and realize that you will seldom if ever see more than a 5% dividend - i.e. be a capitalist.   What we/you DO, though is give money to banks/finance with the hope of the speculative value of stock increasing far more than that (casino capitalism) resulting no wealth being created, but definitely inflationary forces.

As I think someone already mentioned in this thread:  government is NEVER the solution, only the problem.

What GM is doing is about casino capitalism.  You will have high financiers and corporate executives making massive salaries and slightly higher dividends/stock performance for shareholders, with an almost fully automated workforce and cheap foreign labor.  This is the emerging economy.  The industrial workforce is becoming the low paid service economy with a handful af capable programmers st the top of the automation pyramid.  Of course eventually there will be no market for these big ticket products.  At this point there are a few options:

1. Leave the process alone such that there are far fewer decent paid workers and eventually a shrunken market for goods  

2.  Ensure that when companies profit in a marketplace, some of the profits are reinvested in that marketplace (through employment or investment in the economy).  No slashing of job numbers in a position of rising sales/profits without government either setting a cap on those sales or requiring additional reinvestment in the sector until employment numbers are restored.  No such penalty required for job cuts during a fall in sales/profits.

3.  Require that a portion of the profits provide some form of income to citizens   The problem with such a scheme is it would likely require higher corporate taxes and result in paying people to do nothing.  The cost of doing business might be too high unless, internationally all governments, countries and businesses s decide to use automation to pay people to live with no work requirements.  I don’t see that happening and it might result in some unintended negative social consequences People need to be occupied.

To my mind the second option is the only reasonable choice.  It’s not a stretch from what we have.  It doesn’t involve raising taxes on existing profits or prevent innovation or firing people for poor performance.  It does protect overall jobs numbers in a company with steady or rising profits.  At least it disincentivizes cutting workforce numbers, except when sales/profits  fall.

We need something like this in North America or prepare for lower living standards for the majority.  

 

 

Edited December 1, 2018 by Zeitgeist

[bush_cheney2004]

1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said:

....To my mind the second option is the only reasonable choice.  It’s not a stretch from what we have.  It doesn’t involve raising taxes on existing profits or prevent innovation or firing people for poor performance.  It does protect overall jobs numbers in a company with steady or rising profits.  At least it disincentivizes cutting workforce numbers, except when sales/profits  fall.

 

No it doesn't...it just prolongs the inevitable.   Corporations can still choose to leave such jurisdictions completely, often with only a requisite 90 days notice.

...then it is just...Buh-Bye !

[Rue]

19 hours ago, taxme said:

 

Why do you think that Canada needs a larger consumer base anyway? 

So just what are you not getting here?  

It's what you don't get, ever.

The  Conference Board of Canada has found that immigration levels should increase to 413,000 per year by 2030 to strengthen Canada’s economic growth. The report stated there is a need for increased immigration in order to respond to challenges posed by Canada’s aging population.

If the population does not grow to replace those dying which will require people to replace those dying, the costs required to support retirees will undermine the strength of Canada’s economy as the years go on.

We need to replace those citizens not paying into the tax pool that runs the world you take for granted and that is why there is immigration.

The need for immigration is not the issue-the manner in which we select immigrants is.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 1, 2018 by Rue

[cannuck]

1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said:

What GM is doing is about casino capitalism.  You will have high financiers and corporate executives making massive salaries and slightly higher dividends/stock performance for shareholders, with an almost fully automated workforce and cheap foreign labor.  This is the emerging economy.  The industrial workforce is becoming the low paid service economy with a handful af capable programmers st the top of the automation pyramid.  Of course eventually there will be no market for these big ticket products.  At this point there are a few options:

1. 2. 3. 4....

We need something like this in North America or prepare for lower living standards for the majority.  

 

 

What you propose is trying to have government tell business how to run business.   100% GUARANTEE of total failure.

You are quite right, that what is going on at GM (and throughout most of the world) is casino capitalism.   You can't change that by trying to use rules so restrictive, arbitrary, ridiculous, etc.   The correct method of government doing anything at all is actually to GOVERN, not try to manage things that they have zero ability to understand.  The secret is in setting rules that make sense.  By far the most effective is taxation.   What is needed (but few people can understand and far, far fewer in government would ever have the brains and balls to pursue) is to tax the living shit out of speculative gain and keep you hands the hell off of operating profit.  THAT would drive investment back to Main Street where it creates wealth.

The other thing, IMHO, would be some HUGE increase in minority shareholders' rights that would short circuit the business of execs (who are nothing more than employees) robbing shareholders blind with compensation packages wildly over rich with stock options (really just diluting real shareholders)

Edited December 1, 2018 by cannuck

[Rue]

GM is dead. The entire model based on auto manufacturing is a dinosaur. Its over. Its time to move on. Denying the inevitable won't change it. Large motor vehicles such as pick up trucks, luxury vehicles, SUV's are part of a dying empire. You can cling to it and resist the inevitable or you change.

It is unrealistic to think you can revive GM.

A psychiatrist. Elizabeth Kuebler-Ross years ago identified phenomena people go through when they find out they have a terminal illness.

The first one is disbelief.." oh know there must be a mistake".

The second is shock.

The third is bargaining with God to try live longer.

The fourth is depression and resignation.

The fifth is acceptance.

When something like GM being dead is announced people go through the same collective death process. In fact right now the collective reaction is probably a mix of 1, 2 and 3, although Doug Ford made it to stage 4  and 5 in one day.

There is no cure for GM in Canada. Imagining there is won't change a thing. Ontario will go through major economic downturn as the auto industry dies out, no different than what is happening in Alberta with its addictive dependence on tar sands oil.

You have the two major economic bases of Canada dying.

So the question is, does the federal government have the where-with-all to deal with dying industries and identify what it can replace them with? Certainly not this government.

Its run my an elitist who lived in a bubble his whole life and has never worked. He assumes he will always have a trust fund and government pensions to look after him. He doesn't understand the stress of wondering, how does he feed his family. His brain grasps things like lecturing people to be feminist not getting women jobs. He lives in a world of privilege theory where he lectures others to be like him.

Rich boys don't usher in changes or revolutions, they cause them.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Zeitgeist]

9 minutes ago, cannuck said:

What you propose is trying to have government tell business how to run business.   100% GUARANTEE

Read existing NAFTA and the new USMCA.  They are full of quotas, domestic content rules, etc.  Trump’s tariffs also are a check on businesses.  His steel and aluminum tariffs (and Canada’s counter tariffs) are costing the auto sector more than my proposal would.  There will always be some regulation required to prevent the kind of survival of the fittest Social Darwinism that destroys the social fabric.  We need better rules than what we already have.  They aren’t working.  

[cannuck]

5 minutes ago, Rue said:

GM is dead. The entire model based on auto manufacturing is a dinosaur. Its over. Its time to move on. Denying the inevitable won't change it. Large motor vehicles such as pick up trucks, luxury vehicles, SUV's are part of a dying empire. You can cling to it and resist the inevitable or you change.

It is unrealistic to think you can revive GM.

The "end of the auto industry" is some kind of myth based on the idiotic Euroweenie religion of the anti-hydrocarbon cult.

At least for the foreseeable future, private transportation will actually carry on pretty much as it is today.  GM knows that, and is responding to the real market demand that is here, now.   I can guarantee you, they are also very busy planning the near term and long term product development that the people who work in a very large and quite international car company know they will need going forward.

"We" or "you" can't save GM.  Only GM can.   And that is THEIR business to do as they need to make that happen.  They have no responsibility to anyone or anything else other than to do so within the law.

[bush_cheney2004]

2 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Read existing NAFTA and the new USMCA.  They are full of quotas, domestic content rules, etc.  Trump’s tariffs also are a check on businesses.  His steel and aluminum tariffs (and Canada’s counter tariffs) are costing the auto sector more than my proposal would.  There will always be some regulation required to prevent the kind of survival of the fittest Social Darwinism that destroys the social fabric.  We need better rules than what we already have.  They aren’t working.  

 

Quite to the contrary, they are working just fine.   Old plants close...new plants open somewhere else.   Markets and products change.

Where can I buy a new Ford Model T  ?

[cannuck]

4 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Read existing NAFTA and the new USMCA.  They are full of quotas, domestic content rules, etc.  Trump’s tariffs also are a check on businesses.  His steel and aluminum tariffs (and Canada’s counter tariffs) are costing the auto sector more than my proposal would.  There will always be some regulation required to prevent the kind of survival of the fittest Social Darwinism that destroys the social fabric.  We need better rules than what we already have.  They aren’t working.  

You just admitted that government "rules" regarding business of production and sales don't work, then went on to say the having more of what clearly does not work is the solution.   I must repeat:  government is NEVER the solution, and almost always IS the problem.   This is a perfect example.

[cannuck]

2 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Quite to the contrary, they are working just fine.   Old plants close...new plants open somewhere else.   Markets and products change.

Where can I buy a new Ford Model T  ?

The aftermarket feeding the auto hobby is so large, you CAN actualy assemble and entire new Model T from available components.

[Zeitgeist]

10 minutes ago, cannuck said:

You just admitted that government "rules" regarding business of production and sales don't work, then went on to say the having more of what clearly does not work is the solution.   I must repeat:  government is NEVER the solution, and almost always IS the problem.   This is a perfect example.

No, we’ll always need some rules.  Many of the rules in these trade agreements are necessary and important.  I’m recommending certain rules that allow change to meet market demand, but that ensure that when companies meet such demand with good and improved sales,  workers within the market where the company is experiencing success won’t be sacrificed so that the company can fluff up profits to benefit executives and investors but hurt the workers that build the products and the country that buys the products.  Simple. 

GM’s products are selling well in Canada.  Sales have improved.  Thousands of GM workers are losing their jobs and GM’s biggest Canadian plant is closing.  

Edited December 1, 2018 by Zeitgeist

[bush_cheney2004]

23 minutes ago, cannuck said:

The aftermarket feeding the auto hobby is so large, you CAN actualy assemble and entire new Model T from available components.

 

You can buy a used Model T as well, but not a new one from Ford Motor Company.

The GM Oshawa plant closing hysterics are emotional....not rational.

[bush_cheney2004]

17 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

 GM’s products are selling well in Canada.  Sales have improved.  Thousands of GM workers are losing their jobs and GM’s biggest Canadian plant is closing.  

 

Just as many have done before...simple.     Nothing special about the Oshawa plant.

[Zeitgeist]

5 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Just as many have done before...simple.     Nothing special about the Oshawa plant.

The point is, thousands of auto jobs are being slashed in Canada and the US by an auto company making increased sales and profits in those two countries.   I’m just stating facts.  

Edited December 1, 2018 by Zeitgeist

[bush_cheney2004]

5 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

The point is, thousands of auto jobs are being slashed in Canada and the US by an auto company making increased sales and profits in those two countries.   I’m just stating facts.  

 

You might also want to check the facts for past and present employee pension funding and liabilities.

Profit sharing is negotiated within collective bargaining agreements.

Edited December 1, 2018 by bush_cheney2004

[Zeitgeist]

9 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

You might also want to check the facts for past and present employee pension funding and liabilities.

Profit sharing is negotiated within collective bargaining agreements.

Profit sharing is a great way to align worker, management and shareholder interests for the betterment of the company.  Companies with profit sharing tend to be more responsive to market demand and have less adversarial employee relations. 

With regard to pension and benefits, newer workers have less of each.  More generous compensation, including pay rates, were grandfathered years ago.  It helped make the old Big 3 more competitive with non-unionized companies.  It’s always a fine line though between unfair and fair compensation and bloated salaries and benefits. 

Edited December 1, 2018 by Zeitgeist

[bush_cheney2004]

8 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

With regard to pension and benefits, newer workers have less of each.  More generous compensation, including pay rates, were grandfathered years ago.  It helped make the old Big 3 more competitive with non-unionized companies.  It’s always a fine line though between unfair and fair compensation and bloated salaries and benefits. 

 

Union leaders negotiated and members voted to accept multi-tier compensation levels that preserved seniority benefits/pay at the expense of newer hires.   Nobody is holier than anybody else in these matters.   

[Zeitgeist]

3 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Union leaders negotiated and members voted to accept multi-tier compensation levels that preserved seniority benefits/pay at the expense of newer hires.   Nobody is holier than anybody else in these matters.   

Very true 

[bush_cheney2004]

2 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Very true 

 

One of the most ruthless things I've seen when working with union shops is the way the workers would bump each other out the door based on seniority.   Workers were known more by their seniority date than their names.   No mercy !

[Zeitgeist]

4 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

One of the most ruthless things I've seen when working with union shops is the way the workers would bump each other out the door based on seniority.   Workers were known more by their seniority date than their names.   No mercy !

It happens when seniority becomes more important to job security than performance in a collective agreement, creating a moral hazard. 

[taxme]

2 hours ago, Rue said:

It's what you don't get, ever.

The  Conference Board of Canada has found that immigration levels should increase to 413,000 per year by 2030 to strengthen Canada’s economic growth. The report stated there is a need for increased immigration in order to respond to challenges posed by Canada’s aging population.

If the population does not grow to replace those dying which will require people to replace those dying, the costs required to support retirees will undermine the strength of Canada’s economy as the years go on.

We need to replace those citizens not paying into the tax pool that runs the world you take for granted and that is why there is immigration.

The need for immigration is not the issue-the manner in which we select immigrants is.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Rue said:

GM is dead. The entire model based on auto manufacturing is a dinosaur. Its over. Its time to move on. Denying the inevitable won't change it. Large motor vehicles such as pick up trucks, luxury vehicles, SUV's are part of a dying empire. You can cling to it and resist the inevitable or you change.

It is unrealistic to think you can revive GM.

A psychiatrist. Elizabeth Kuebler-Ross years ago identified phenomena people go through when they find out they have a terminal illness.

The first one is disbelief.." oh know there must be a mistake".

The second is shock.

The third is bargaining with God to try live longer.

The fourth is depression and resignation.

The fifth is acceptance.

When something like GM being dead is announced people go through the same collective death process. In fact right now the collective reaction is probably a mix of 1, 2 and 3, although Doug Ford made it to stage 4  and 5 in one day.

There is no cure for GM in Canada. Imagining there is won't change a thing. Ontario will go through major economic downturn as the auto industry dies out, no different than what is happening in Alberta with its addictive dependence on tar sands oil.

You have the two major economic bases of Canada dying.

So the question is, does the federal government have the where-with-all to deal with dying industries and identify what it can replace them with? Certainly not this government.

Its run my an elitist who lived in a bubble his whole life and has never worked. He assumes he will always have a trust fund and government pensions to look after him. He doesn't understand the stress of wondering, how does he feed his family. His brain grasps things like lecturing people to be feminist not getting women jobs. He lives in a world of privilege theory where he lectures others to be like him.

Rich boys don't usher in changes or revolutions, they cause them.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Let GM go by the way of the dinosaurs. There are plenty of other car manufacturers out there to buy a new car from and who no doubt will pick up the slack and maybe get to hire those GM workers that were laid off a job. I assume that it should turn out that way. It's sad to see people lose their jobs but that is life. Sometime, somewhere, somehow we all get screwed by some event or someone. When a company like GM needs bailouts from the government(the taxpayer's)then that company should be allowed to fold up. Why the taxpayer's have to help bailout a company that cannot run a company without continually going into debt is not a company to be investing our tax dollars into. GM is one of the many adventures that the government(the taxpayer's)is being forced to pay to help keep a dying company alive. Enough already. It's my dam money too. 

[taxme]

On 11/28/2018 at 9:56 PM, bush_cheney2004 said:

Another GM Oshawa sob story from one of the organized labour faithful...Denmark has the answer !

 

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-general-motors-decision-isnt-just-business-to-oshawa-its/

Geez, even Trump is pissed off also. Anyone here have anything nasty to say about Trump here now over this closure? I am surprised that Trump is not being blamed for the closure of the GM plant? Trump has to be involved somehow in this?   

[taxme]

1 hour ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

One of the most ruthless things I've seen when working with union shops is the way the workers would bump each other out the door based on seniority.   Workers were known more by their seniority date than their names.   No mercy !

Seniority must count. Why should someone who has been working for a company for twenty five years be allwoed to get bumped by someone who has only worked for that company for five years? No mercy alright but that is life.