GM packing its bags in Oshawa

[bush_cheney2004]

Unifor's Jerry Dias thinks GM might leave Canada completely.     Gee, I wonder what was his first clue ?

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/jerry-dias-trudeau-gm-ottawa-1.4922392

[taxme]

4 hours ago, Machjo said:

Canada should introduce right-to-work legislation.

What Canada needs are business politicians who know how to create new jobs, and not new and more taxes and new and more rules and regulations just to please a whiny bunch of crybaby minorities and socialists who are against everything like those crazy environmentalists and native Indians who can only offer up as to how to go about losing jobs. The constant delays in getting pipelines in Canada built has cost the Canadian economy hundreds of billions in lost revenues and thousands of jobs for Canadians. I read that because of all this nonsense going on about pipelines has and still is costing approx. 25,000 jobs direct and indirectly in the oil industry to be lost. While our socialist politicians fiddle away their time with our tax dollars and job creation we the people keep on suffering. 

Are our socialist politicians trying to turn Canada into a third world country? It sure looks like it too me. Instead of our dear leaders constantly trying to promote multiculturalism, bilingualism, foreign aid, bringing in tens of thousands of legal and illegal refugees is not creating any new private sector jobs at all. What those socialist programs and agendas mentioned above are doing is creating and costing the Canadian taxpayer's hundreds of billions of their tax dollars every year just for the pleasure of having more government bureaucracy. 

C'mon folks, you must know by now as to what the real problem here in Canada is?  Can anyone here say the word "politicians"?  

[Machjo]

1 hour ago, turningrite said:

Retraining older workers hasn't had a great track record as a solution to economic dislocation resulting from globalization and technological change. Most workers who lose a middle-income level job when they're older than 50 will never land another job with a similar income, if they're able to find employment at all. Hong Kong houses much of its working class and not merely its poor in subsidized housing and that may have to become to model in the West for those who are dispossessed by government-promoted restructuring and globalization. Creating a population and workforce that's resilient and adaptable entails ensuring that basic needs will always be met. Otherwise, people will simply try to hold onto whatever economic resources, including jobs, they're accustomed to having and will resist and rebel if their needs are ignored. But other big changes will be required as well, including massively reducing immigration. As the economist Milton Friedman noted, a comprehensive social support system is not sustainable or practical alongside a policy of open borders and large-scale immigration.

Don't get me wrong here because I'm not actually a fan of the subsidy model but corporate globalization may be setting it up as the only alternative to chaos. I shudder to think what our progressive social engineers will do if expanding the subsidy model becomes the only viable option. We're seeing some of it under JT and I can only imagine the mess we'll face if his party or any other promoting similar policies maintains power over the short to medium term.

You do bring up some valid points there. I also like the idea of public housing in a way. If a person is poor, there can be many reasons for that, including addiction. With that in mind, it might make more sense providing him with public housing rather than with money directly. Of course Hong Kong also has a social-assistance program, but obviously it will give less money if it's providing public housing too.

Hong Kong also invests heavily in education and trades and professional training for the unemployed. All of that costs money, which means that it needs a reasonable tax base. But to keep taxes low, it has to maintain a no-frills-no-gimmicks system. Also, unlike Canada, Hong Kong doesn't really help its middle class. granted the middle class pay few taxes too. Instead, it taxes the rich, helps the poor, and leaves the middle class to fend for itself. Seems to work for the most part.

[taxme]

3 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Unifor's Jerry Dias thinks GM might leave Canada completely.     Gee, I wonder what was his first clue ?

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/jerry-dias-trudeau-gm-ottawa-1.4922392

Getting the liberal kid PM involved would only make the problem worse. His NAFTA negotiator Freeland thinks that having protection rights for gays and lesbians in the agreement is what was really more important in the agreement. What gays and lesbian rights have to do with making a trade deal with another country is a bit ridiculous to say the least.

Anyway, there is nothing any union leader or politician in Canada can do if GM pulls out of Canada completely. There can be no doubt about it that our politicians in Canada are responsible for the many thousands of lost jobs and the creation of big projects in Canada. The oil industry is in turmoil thanks again to our dear liberal socialist leaders and a tiny minority of whiny liberal socialist crybabies who think that socialism will cure all of our oil and car manufacturing woes among many others.

Jerry Dias will be looking for a new job here pretty soon. Maybe Dias and his union members maybe should have been taking a lot more interest as to what their Canadian politicians have been doing to our Canadian economy over the several decades here in Canada. Dias is no doubt out of a job thanks to those bozos. That is his problem now. 

As the old saying goes? "Government "IS" the problem and never the solution. 

[taxme]

8 minutes ago, Machjo said:

You do bring up some valid points there. I also like the idea of public housing in a way. If a person is poor, there can be many reasons for that, including addiction. With that in mind, it might make more sense providing him with public housing rather than with money directly. Of course Hong Kong also has a social-assistance program, but obviously it will give less money if it's providing public housing too.

Hong Kong also invests heavily in education and trades and professional training for the unemployed. All of that costs money, which means that it needs a reasonable tax base. But to keep taxes low, it has to maintain a no-frills-no-gimmicks system. Also, unlike Canada, Hong Kong doesn't really help its middle class. granted the middle class pay few taxes too. Instead, it taxes the rich, helps the poor, and leaves the middle class to fend for itself. Seems to work for the most part.

As the old saying goes? "It's immigration, silly". A country like Canada that keeps bringing in hundreds of thousands of new immigrants plus legal and illegal refugees every year and with approx. two million Canadians unemployed how the hell can we ever getting Canada straightened out? As we can see the hundreds of thousands of new immigrants being brought into Canada every year will only add to the problem. And now we are going to have another approx. 2500 Canadian GM workers out of work but yet our dear socialist crazy ass liberal leaders want to raise the bar and bring in more new immigrants next year. Immigration has to be our number one issue and topic in Canada. Canadians need to demand that there be a moratorium put on immigration for at least five to seven years or longer if need be until we can get our house in order. It is GM today. Who will it be tomorrow. Canada is going to become a third world hell hole if Canadians continue to ignore and not pay attention to this immigration fiasco and get on their politicians butt. Wake up people for gawds sake. 

[bush_cheney2004]

13 minutes ago, taxme said:

....Anyway, there is nothing any union leader or politician in Canada can do if GM pulls out of Canada completely. There can be no doubt about it that our politicians in Canada are responsible for the many thousands of lost jobs and the creation of big projects in Canada. The oil industry is in turmoil thanks again to our dear liberal socialist leaders and a tiny minority of whiny liberal socialist crybabies who think that socialism will cure all of our oil and car manufacturing woes among many others.

 

 

Trudeau and the Sunshine Band didn't worry so much about Alberta, because they don't lean Liberal.   But the loss of the "iconic" GM Oshawa plant that continues the long automotive employment slide in Ontario is a big risk for Liberal votes, more so than cars/trucks.   So now the scramble is on to limit the political damage going into the 2019 election.

 

[Machjo]

4 minutes ago, taxme said:

As the old saying goes? "It's immigration, silly". A country like Canada that keeps bringing in hundreds of thousands of new immigrants plus legal and illegal refugees every year and with approx. two million Canadians unemployed how the hell can we ever getting Canada straightened out? As we can see the hundreds of thousands of new immigrants being brought into Canada every year will only add to the problem. And now we are going to have another approx. 2500 Canadian GM workers out of work but yet our dear socialist crazy ass liberal leaders want to raise the bar and bring in more new immigrants next year. Immigration has to be our number one issue and topic in Canada. Canadians need to demand that there be a moratorium put on immigration for at least five to seven years or longer if need be until we can get our house in order. It is GM today. Who will it be tomorrow. Canada is going to become a third world hell hole if Canadians continue to ignore and not pay attention to this immigration fiasco and get on their politicians butt. Wake up people for gawds sake. 

Some of the most successful states have more open borders than Canada does. I don't know if you've ever visited Hong Kong, but you'll find that they stamp your passport and off you go. Just don't have narcotics on you, that's all. Singapore too has a high immigrant population, and again it's wealthier than Canada per capita. So if it's all about immigration, then how do explain that? I think the real problem has to do with an excessively generous welfare system. If the system were more strict, we'd attract a different kind of immigrant. So the problem has nothing to do with immigration, everything to do with welfare policy.

[taxme]

7 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Trudeau and the Sunshine Band didn't worry so much about Alberta, because they don't lean Liberal.   But the loss of the "iconic" GM Oshawa plant that continues the long automotive employment slide in Ontario is a big risk for Liberal votes, more so than cars/trucks.   So now the scramble is on to limit the political damage going into the 2019 election.

 

Anyone with some intelligence can plainly see that a vote for liberal/socialists and even conservatives is a vote for more job losses like this. They all have not been doing a pretty good job of trying to make Canada great again for Canada or Canadians at all. If it were not for big daddy government Canada would be just as big and powerful and respected and recognized as a world leader and a great country just like America is. Living next door to America one has to wonder what the hell happened to Canada. The world has respect for America. The world can only laugh and treat Canada like some third world country going nowhere fast. The prospects for Canada do not look all that great in 2019. One can only hope that at least the liberals will find themselves in last place in the next election. Personally, I think that the chit will still be hitting the fan with no end in site. I hate attacking and mocking my home country but thanks to our politicians they have turned me out to be this way. I love my country but I do not love our politicians. They have been letting down Canadians for so long it has gone beyond pathetic.   

[taxme]

19 minutes ago, Machjo said:

Some of the most successful states have more open borders than Canada does. I don't know if you've ever visited Hong Kong, but you'll find that they stamp your passport and off you go. Just don't have narcotics on you, that's all. Singapore too has a high immigrant population, and again it's wealthier than Canada per capita. So if it's all about immigration, then how do explain that? I think the real problem has to do with an excessively generous welfare system. If the system were more strict, we'd attract a different kind of immigrant. So the problem has nothing to do with immigration, everything to do with welfare policy.

Ya, like California, where that state is virtually bankrupt thanks in part to the politically correct liberal and socialist politicians and massive immigration from Mexico and from further on down. Nevada and Texas and Arizona will end up like California next if legal and illegal immigration is allowed to continue. Finally Trump is going to try and do something about it. 

Every country including Canada have and are all still dancing to the immigration dance song. Singapore maybe be wealthy for now with a high immigration rate but how long will that go on? Something will give. Canada has become a destination for all of the third worlds poor. Canada has allowed hundreds of millions into Canada for several decades now and I do not see anywhere as to how this has done wonders for Canada or host Canadians. With approx. two million Canadians unemployed how can anyone say that Canada is a wealthy country by any means. Maybe it would be if there were not so many Canadians unemployed. And all of this massive immigration that has been going on for several decades now has done not a dam thing to try and solve our unemployment problem. As a matter of fact it has made the unemployment situation worse.

If Canada did not have all the wonderful social welfare and medical system benefits around would these same immigrants want to still come to Canada?  I wonder. Some new immigrants maybe want to become a real Canadian citizen and join in our culture but there no doubt are many who only just want to get here for economic reasons and dam the Canadian culture. Many want to hang on to their own culture and the sad part about is that they are now encouraged by our governments at all levels to do so at taxpayer's tax dollars expense. 

Everything in Canada today is starting to have an effect on it thanks to massive immigration and our generous welfare policy. Many come here just to have their baby's born here. Believe it or not. 

[Machjo]

17 minutes ago, taxme said:

Ya, like California, where that state is virtually bankrupt thanks in part to the politically correct liberal and socialist politicians and massive immigration from Mexico and from further on down. Nevada and Texas and Arizona will end up like California next if legal and illegal immigration is allowed to continue. Finally Trump is going to try and do something about it. 

Every country including Canada have and are all still dancing to the immigration dance song. Singapore maybe be wealthy for now with a high immigration rate but how long will that go on? Something will give. Canada has become a destination for all of the third worlds poor. Canada has allowed hundreds of millions into Canada for several decades now and I do not see anywhere as to how this has done wonders for Canada or host Canadians. With approx. two million Canadians unemployed how can anyone say that Canada is a wealthy country by any means. Maybe it would be if there were not so many Canadians unemployed. And all of this massive immigration that has been going on for several decades now has done not a dam thing to try and solve our unemployment problem. As a matter of fact it has made the unemployment situation worse.

If Canada did not have all the wonderful social welfare and medical system benefits around would these same immigrants want to still come to Canada?  I wonder. Some new immigrants maybe want to become a real Canadian citizen and join in our culture but there no doubt are many who only just want to get here for economic reasons and dam the Canadian culture. Many want to hang on to their own culture and the sad part about is that they are now encouraged by our governments at all levels to do so at taxpayer's tax dollars expense. 

Everything in Canada today is starting to have an effect on it thanks to massive immigration and our generous welfare policy. Many come here just to have their baby's born here. Believe it or not. 

Again, nothing you said contradicts anything I said. Like I said, the problem has nothing to do with immigration but with the welfare system.

[taxme]

1 minute ago, Machjo said:

Again, nothing you said contradicts anything I said. Like I said, the problem has nothing to do with immigration but with the welfare system.

C'mon, give me a break. Just about everything going wrong in Canada these days has to do with immigration. Thanks to massive immigration legal and illegal we now have a welfare system that is in crises and is bankrupt. There are more new legal and illegal immigrants on welfare and more than you could ever count. Billions of tax dollars are being blown away to try and keep new immigrants fed, clothed and housed with some added dollars to buy something with. C'mon, give me a break.  

[Machjo]

14 minutes ago, taxme said:

C'mon, give me a break. Just about everything going wrong in Canada these days has to do with immigration. Thanks to massive immigration legal and illegal we now have a welfare system that is in crises and is bankrupt. There are more new legal and illegal immigrants on welfare and more than you could ever count. Billions of tax dollars are being blown away to try and keep new immigrants fed, clothed and housed with some added dollars to buy something with. C'mon, give me a break.  

Cut welfare and many would stop coming, right? Again, the problem is not with immigration.

[Centerpiece]

Never a peep about the fact that Toyota and Honda workers are not unionized in spite of Unifor trying for years. They just go about their business.

[Machjo]

9 minutes ago, Centerpiece said:

Never a peep about the fact that Toyota and Honda workers are not unionized in spite of Unifor trying for years. They just go about their business.

And have kept their jobs.

Hmmmm... could unionization hurt jobs?

[Centerpiece]

7 minutes ago, Machjo said:

And have kept their jobs.

Hmmmm... could unionization hurt jobs?

I don't think there can be any doubt that Unionized Labour creates a barrier between management and the shop floor - an impediment to true workplace collaboration that can generate incremental productivity improvements that may/could forestall some automation. Best to be part of the solution than viewed as part of the problem.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Centerpiece said:

I don't think there can be any doubt that Unionized Labour creates a barrier between management and the shop floor - an impediment to true workplace collaboration that can generate incremental productivity improvements that may/could forestall some automation. Best to be part of the solution than viewed as part of the problem.

The problem is one never knows when a union is needed.  I have been in a job where a major union dithered between being completely useless and being a barrier as you describe, and I'm currently in a job where I believe a union would be a big mistake, but I've also been in jobs where the union was indispensable,  and others where I was taken advantage of even unto being put in deadly situations, where a union would have helped avoid such.

[Wilber]

17 minutes ago, Centerpiece said:

I don't think there can be any doubt that Unionized Labour creates a barrier between management and the shop floor - an impediment to true workplace collaboration that can generate incremental productivity improvements that may/could forestall some automation. Best to be part of the solution than viewed as part of the problem.

Depends on the union and management. They can work together if there is a will to.

[Rue]

Sorry Boges has it right. GM was not making products in Oshawa any consumer was buying. Way back when none of you were born Canada had a choice. We could have chosen to go witho our own car industry and compete toe to toe with the US. Instead we entered in a deal with them to prevent competition between us.

In return they agreed to put car plants in Canada and we chose to get car plants that made the BIGGEST vehicles, i.e., trucks, luxury vehicles, thinking it would make us more money. We did not forecast that eventually these cars and trucks with increasing fuel prices would become unpopuiar. We also did not properly forecast the market and impending competitors who would catch up to us and surpass as in quality, technology and pricing based on arrogance.

Did the unions cost competition with high wages. To an extent but the real lack of competition came from refusing to advance technology as was done in Japan, South Korea, because of our arrogance.

Now the market place changed and we like dinosaurs would not change our diet.

GM has produced inferior vehicles for over 20 years. Most consumers know this. If nothing else transmissions crack after 200 thou k's and service of vehicles is a nightmare while Japanse and South Korean products outperform, last and have far better service.

We chose to be dependent on the US and GM.  Now we suffer and Ford and Chrysler are having the same issues. Being able to put together such vehicles with cheaper labour in Mexico and buy out a Japanese brand name like Mazda as Ford did only stalls the inevitable.

GM is a  dying dinosaur. It has uninspired leadership and spews out crap.

I think its unrealistic to think you can change GM anymore than you can turn Richard Simmons straight or turn Paris Hilton into a virgin. It aint happening.

 

[turningrite]

16 hours ago, Machjo said:

Some of the most successful states have more open borders than Canada does. I don't know if you've ever visited Hong Kong, but you'll find that they stamp your passport and off you go. Just don't have narcotics on you, that's all. Singapore too has a high immigrant population, and again it's wealthier than Canada per capita. So if it's all about immigration, then how do explain that? I think the real problem has to do with an excessively generous welfare system. If the system were more strict, we'd attract a different kind of immigrant. So the problem has nothing to do with immigration, everything to do with welfare policy.

My guess is that neither Hong Kong nor Singapore offers generous social benefits to new immigrants, who no doubt are expected to work and pay their own way. As noted previously, an open immigration policy cannot co-exist with a broadly available and comprehensive welfare program. If we are to maintain a large-scale immigration program I think we'll have to move to the American model where eligibility for most social programs (i.e. Social Security) is tied to residency and contributions, similar in some aspects to Canada's current pension (OAS) system. The American Social Security disability system is actually more generous than is our equivalent CPP-D system. Interestingly, unlike in Canada, the most recent generation of immigrants in the U.S. are net contributors to the tax system. Despite our nonsensically vaunted immigration selection system, if we're looking for a successful economic integration model we need look no further than south of our own border. Handouts to newcomers neither encourage integration nor do they help to counteract a growing sense among many that immigration is anything more than a redistributive game where taxpayers pay to provide benefits to too many who don't contribute. Our current system serves up a recipe for backlash.

Edited November 28, 2018 by turningrite

[turningrite]

1 hour ago, Rue said:

Sorry Boges has it right. GM was not making products in Oshawa any consumer was buying. Way back when none of you were born Canada had a choice. We could have chosen to go witho our own car industry and compete toe to toe with the US. Instead we entered in a deal with them to prevent competition between us.

In return they agreed to put car plants in Canada and we chose to get car plants that made the BIGGEST vehicles, i.e., trucks, luxury vehicles, thinking it would make us more money. We did not forecast that eventually these cars and trucks with increasing fuel prices would become unpopuiar. We also did not properly forecast the market and impending competitors who would catch up to us and surpass as in quality, technology and pricing based on arrogance.

Did the unions cost competition with high wages. To an extent but the real lack of competition came from refusing to advance technology as was done in Japan, South Korea, because of our arrogance.

 

The main problem with your analysis is that North Americans remain stubbornly addicted to big gas-guzzling cars and trucks. The Oshawa GM factory could easily be retooled to produce other models, something that's done all the time in the auto industry. As Thomas Walkom points out in his column in today's Toronto Star ('Trump fights GM closure as Trudeau, Ford roll over'), "...consumers are buying gas-guzzling SUVs and pickup trucks - including the Silverado and Sierra models assembled in Oshawa." GM won't stop producing such vehicles, as Walkom notes, but "...its preference is to produce them in low-wage countries like Mexico." In other words, the closure of plants in Oshawa and in the U.S. is purely and simply a matter of wage arbitrage. Nothing the workers could have offered would have prevented this. Workers in Canada simply can't survive on Mexican-level or Chinese-level wages. They couldn't afford housing, clothing, or food (i.e. the basic necessities of life) were they to try to do so. Our leaders have encouraged a high-cost economy in conjunction with low-wage corporate globalism. At some point the illogical rationale underlying this system was bound to be exposed. Our naive PM is fascinated by dreams of an economy of the future. Unfortunately, most of us have to live in the present. Trudeau and his globalist pals seem to have no plan to bridge the gap.

[Centerpiece]

Under the guise of "moving to electric cars", GM is actually doing what Ford did - getting out of the sedan business. Remember all the rage with the Chevy VOLT? Well, they are discontinuing it completely in 2019 and shuttering the plant that builds it. How's that for electrification. It's all about profit and building what people want to buy - SUVs, crossovers and trucks. Fill 'er up!

Quote

 

GM announced today a major restructuring that will involve “doubling” the company’s investment in electric and self-driving cars, but they will pay for it by shutting down factories and laying off thousands of workers.

The company has also confirmed that the Chevy Volt will be discontinued.

Similar to what Ford did earlier this year, GM says that it is moving away from sedans and it is instead focusing on “trucks, crossovers and SUVs.”

They now say that they will prioritize “investments in its next-generation battery-electric architectures”:

 

Link: https://electrek.co/2018/11/26/gm-chevy-volt-factory-shutdown-electric-investmet/

[Zeitgeist]

18 minutes ago, Centerpiece said:

Under the guise of "moving to electric cars", GM is actually doing what Ford did - getting out of the sedan business. Remember all the rage with the Chevy VOLT? Well, they are discontinuing it completely in 2019 and shuttering the plant that builds it. How's that for electrification. It's all about profit and building what people want to buy - SUVs, crossovers and trucks. Fill 'er up!

Link: https://electrek.co/2018/11/26/gm-chevy-volt-factory-shutdown-electric-investmet/

Canadian workers can build any kinds of vehicles, high or low tech.  I think it's time for our parts producers to scale up to building autos.  Canada has world's third largest auto parts maker, Magna.  They have produced prototypes of SUV's.  Perhaps they can take over those facilities.  May have to leave our Unifor...

[Wilber]

No doubt they will be investing in electrics but they will be doing it in Europe and Asia where the markets are. They will also continue building cars like the Cruze in those countries just as Ford is continuing to build small cars in those markets. FCA has also stopped building cars in the US with its 300 based platforms only used in Canada and Europe. As the European and Asian markets are both bigger than the North American market, US manufacturing will eventually become an automotive dinosaur, building cars that have no export markets. The  largest exporters of US assembled vehicles are BMW and Honda. Largely because of Trump's nonsense, BMW is moving much of its X3 production from the US to China and South Africa.

US Car Exports to China down 56% in 2018

BMW

Edited November 28, 2018 by Wilber

[bush_cheney2004]

17 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Canadian workers can build any kinds of vehicles, high or low tech.  I think it's time for our parts producers to scale up to building autos.  Canada has world's third largest auto parts maker, Magna.  They have produced prototypes of SUV's.  Perhaps they can take over those facilities.  May have to leave our Unifor...

 

Magna has also closed down several plants in Canada...and opened/purchased new ones outside of Canada....consistent with the dwindling automotive sector over the past 20 years in Ontario.   The cost fundamentals are no longer favourable, even with a lower value CAD. 

[Wilber]

With the concentration on light trucks does that mean the cost fundamentals are no longer favourable in the US without the 25% chicken tariff?

Edited November 28, 2018 by Wilber