Michael Hardner Posted June 13, 2018 Report Share Posted June 13, 2018 15 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said: No, let's also talk about Paul Martin in Libya....because...you know...Canadian PM would never, ever shake hands and honour a "dictator" ! Great pic. And it makes me consider 'publics' once again. Are we, on here, the same as the 'general' public. If so, then we can buy the line of rhetoric that we in the west are selfless warriors for justice, liberty and 'les droits de l'homme' that came of The Enlightenment. Or... Are we a little more informed, and therefore able to understand the realities and necessities of some alliances and playing the long game ? If we are the latter, we can drop the moralizing and focus on whether these alliances serve their purposes. If we are the former we just need a picture as BC posted, or a reminder that we all deal happily with Saudi Arabia to confound our sense of smugness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted June 13, 2018 Report Share Posted June 13, 2018 5 hours ago, betsy said: Me.....I'm pointing my finger at the one whom I believe had caused this. Trudeau. Even when Trump decided to kill NAFTA and impose sanctions BEFORE Trudeau did exactly the same thing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted June 13, 2018 Report Share Posted June 13, 2018 2 minutes ago, GostHacked said: Even when Trump decided to kill NAFTA and impose sanctions BEFORE Trudeau did exactly the same thing? Exactly. The guy who campaigned on tearing up NAFTA surely can't have anything to do with all of this, right ? In fairness, it's equally amusing to observe the mirror-image of the FTA panic in this year's version of 'NAFTA is in trouble panic' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted June 13, 2018 Report Share Posted June 13, 2018 Well, my take, after listening to all the pundits, and reading the details, is that the US got a big fat nothingburger out of this, as expected. The Trumpists are trying to pretend that merely getting a meeting with the madman of North Korea is a great victory, but the North Koreans have been demanding a one on one meeting with the president for fifty years. No other president would lower himself or elevate the North Koreans by agreeing without the North Koreans first granting some concessions. This president, Mr Deal-maker, agreed to the meeting without any concessions from the NKs. The NK's get huge prestige, with their little fat man up on a stage one on one with the president of the united states, a stop to US military exercises, security guarantees, and in exchange made vague promises to de-nuclearize - eventually - in some way - but without details or timetable. Its actually the same offer they made in April to the South Koreans, and the same promise they've made a number of previous times but then broken. Mr. Deal-maker shows once again the only thing in the world he knows anything about is New York City real estate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted June 13, 2018 Report Share Posted June 13, 2018 17 hours ago, AngusThermopyle said: Here you go with your TDS again, it really is a sickness with you. I never said anything about Obama, quite frankly he's irrelevant at this point. What I did say is that this is a brilliant tactic, which it is. Everyone knows that Kim is very child like in many ways. And what did this brilliant tactic accomplish? Did North Korea promise To pull back the huge army they have on their border with South Korea? To remove the thousands of artillery pieces dug in on the border sited on Seoul? To close down its death camps which slaughter tens of thousands of men, women and children every year? To verifiably end their nuclear program? Nope. The US got nothing from them. Zip. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted June 13, 2018 Report Share Posted June 13, 2018 10 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said: Exactly. The guy who campaigned on tearing up NAFTA surely can't have anything to do with all of this, right ? In fairness, it's equally amusing to observe the mirror-image of the FTA panic in this year's version of 'NAFTA is in trouble panic' People dumber than Trump could have even figured that out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted June 13, 2018 Report Share Posted June 13, 2018 2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said: Are we a little more informed, and therefore able to understand the realities and necessities of some alliances and playing the long game ? If we are the latter, we can drop the moralizing and focus on whether these alliances serve their purposes. If we are the former we just need a picture as BC posted, or a reminder that we all deal happily with Saudi Arabia to confound our sense of smugness. It depends on if you only care about the current election term or if your thinking extends beyond that. NATO was designed to keep the Soviets from overrunning Western Europe. Why? Because the US is so nice? Hardly. The Soviets were enough of an enemy as it was. Let them control all of Europe and they're suddenly twice as powerful as the United States - and still an implacable foe. Had the US pulled back into isolation mode the Soviet Union would not only be alive today it would own all Europe, much of Africa and the Middle East. US alliances in Europe were out of self-interest, not generosity. There was a guy on one of the news shows last night who put it succinctly. They were talking about Trump's disdain for the State Department, his failure to appoint senior advisers in the State Department or even appoint ambassadors in many countries, including South Korea, and to cut the State Department budget to the bone. He made the point that every time there is some kind of international meeting in Asia the US sends a diplomat or two. The Chinese send twenty. They're busy shaking hands, smiling, cajoling, making offers, extending their influence. As the US pulls back under its sullen, isolationist leaders, China moves into the vacuum, just as Russia is doing in Europe. The US might find one day that it has no alliances and is backed into a corner all alone by richer, more powerful enemies who do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted June 13, 2018 Report Share Posted June 13, 2018 2 minutes ago, Argus said: 1) It depends on if you only care about the current election term or if your thinking extends beyond that. 2) As the US pulls back under its sullen, isolationist leaders, China moves into the vacuum, just as Russia is doing in Europe. The US might find one day that it has no alliances and is backed into a corner all alone by richer, more powerful enemies who do. 1) I agree with what you wrote about the necessity for union, but I don't think how we see ourselves, or discuss things depends on anything. We are either pragmatic and open, or we use narratives, imagery and moral symbols to guide us. Those are roughly the two approaches I was weighing. 2) Excellent point also. But you seem to already be in the arena of pragmatic and open discussion, which I also prefer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted June 13, 2018 Report Share Posted June 13, 2018 7 minutes ago, GostHacked said: People dumber than Trump could have even figured that out. Well, any system is designed for a certain profile of its user. So it is with democracy. The mushrooming of the distraction-entertainment complex has reduced our collective capacity for serious discussion and analysis so a redesign is needed. I don't like to call the public or even the masses 'dumb' as I am one of them, and the tendency I have seen is for people to simultaneously use a magnanimous version of the same thing (eg. "the people have spoken") when things happen to go their way. No - it's a system designed for use. People are dumb sometimes and wise sometimes IMO. One week in America Farenheit 911 was the #1 film. Next week it was Kangaroo Jack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimwd Posted June 13, 2018 Report Share Posted June 13, 2018 There is no agreement. No dates..no definitions..nothing.. Trump tore up Iran deal that was working with no replacement. Now he has nothing. Utter and total failure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted June 13, 2018 Report Share Posted June 13, 2018 57 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said: Well, any system is designed for a certain profile of its user. So it is with democracy. The mushrooming of the distraction-entertainment complex has reduced our collective capacity for serious discussion and analysis so a redesign is needed. I don't like to call the public or even the masses 'dumb' as I am one of them, and the tendency I have seen is for people to simultaneously use a magnanimous version of the same thing (eg. "the people have spoken") when things happen to go their way. No - it's a system designed for use. People are dumb sometimes and wise sometimes IMO. One week in America Farenheit 911 was the #1 film. Next week it was Kangaroo Jack. I will call someone dumb when they do not comprehend the real chronological order of events. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted June 13, 2018 Report Share Posted June 13, 2018 2 minutes ago, GostHacked said: I will call someone dumb when they do not comprehend the real chronological order of events. Ok, so you call them smart when they get it ? Is there any time when the people are dumb, or the masses are smart, but they happen to disagree with you ? When the polls come out on this peace agreement will you change your mind about it ? Or about the people ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted June 13, 2018 Report Share Posted June 13, 2018 57 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said: Ok, so you call them smart when they get it ? Is there any time when the people are dumb, or the masses are smart, but they happen to disagree with you ? When the polls come out on this peace agreement will you change your mind about it ? Or about the people ? Well, I wont call them DUMB. The chronological order of the events is important when putting forth a valid argument. So complaining about Trudeau AFTER Trump did exactly the same thing, is very dumb. We call that hypocrisy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted June 13, 2018 Report Share Posted June 13, 2018 2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said: 1) I agree with what you wrote about the necessity for union, but I don't think how we see ourselves, or discuss things depends on anything. We are either pragmatic and open, or we use narratives, imagery and moral symbols to guide us. Those are roughly the two approaches I was weighing. I think we use both....using such narratives provides a thin veneer to hide amoral objectives and actions. Trump can be no more mistaken than prior presidents and administrations when it comes to the DPRK, having inherited the latest and most dangerous version (nuclear weapons + long range ballistic missiles) yielded (pun intended) from previous, ineffective carrot/stick frameworks. Depending on the U.S. to "protect post WW2 order" means depending on U.S. presidential policy decisions, and right now the president is Donald Trump. President Obama got a Nobel for far less. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimwd Posted June 14, 2018 Report Share Posted June 14, 2018 8 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said: I think we use both....using such narratives provides a thin veneer to hide amoral objectives and actions. Trump can be no more mistaken than prior presidents and administrations when it comes to the DPRK, having inherited the latest and most dangerous version (nuclear weapons + long range ballistic missiles) yielded (pun intended) from previous, ineffective carrot/stick frameworks. Depending on the U.S. to "protect post WW2 order" means depending on U.S. presidential policy decisions, and right now the president is Donald Trump. President Obama got a Nobel for far less. There is no deal. Trump threatened a pre emptive strike. Kim Jong did what he had to to stop it without giving up a thing. Trump on the other hand praised a dictator that kills his own people and promise to stop military exercises. Trump tore up a deal with Iran that was working according to his own chairman of the joint chiefs. He tore up the deal with no replacement . So now not only did Kim Jong not to commit to anything except talk... he got to be praised on the world stage and legitimacy he's always wanted . Now there are no deals......Kim 3 Trump -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted June 14, 2018 Report Share Posted June 14, 2018 4 minutes ago, Jimwd said: There is no deal. Trump threatened a pre emptive strike. Trump can still strike the DPRK at any time...he made the right decision to de-escalate from last year. Trump has certainly done no worse than previous administrations and DPRK games that led to nuclear weapons and missiles anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimwd Posted June 14, 2018 Report Share Posted June 14, 2018 Just now, bush_cheney2004 said: Trump can still strike the DPRK at any time...he made the right decision to de-escalate from last year. Trump has certainly done no worse than previous administrations and DPRK games that led to nuclear weapons and missiles anyway. There is nothing Trump can do. China wont let him. The fact is N korea is not a threat to anyone except their own people. Kim Jong is not stupid enough to believe he can win a nuclear war with America. His goal is simply to prevent american attacks for regime change. For good reason I might add. This is where americas WMD lies have come back to haunt them. Would you give up your nukes to a pathological liar? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted June 14, 2018 Report Share Posted June 14, 2018 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Jimwd said: There is nothing Trump can do. China wont let him. The fact is N korea is not a threat to anyone except their own people. Kim Jong is not stupid enough to believe he can win a nuclear war with America. His goal is simply to prevent american attacks for regime change. For good reason I might add. This is where americas WMD lies have come back to haunt them. Would you give up your nukes to a pathological liar? I don't think you understand....nothing Trump has done prevents or precludes Trump from attacking the DPRK in response to an existential threat. Kim does not control the ultimate outcome of such a conflagration...Trump does. Edited June 14, 2018 by bush_cheney2004 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimwd Posted June 14, 2018 Report Share Posted June 14, 2018 3 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said: I don't think you understand....nothing Trump has done prevents or precludes Trump from attacking the DPRK in response to an existential threat. Kim does not control the ultimate outcome of such a conflagration...Trump does. No Trump does not control anything because he is too easily played by anyone who gives him a compliment. He's making a fool of himself sucking up to Kim Jong and humiliating america. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted June 14, 2018 Report Share Posted June 14, 2018 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Jimwd said: No Trump does not control anything because he is too easily played by anyone who gives him a compliment. He's making a fool of himself sucking up to Kim Jong and humiliating america. Okay fine...you just want to play "I hate Trump" games. America doesn't need canada to worry for them....they worry for canada. Trump still matters a lot more than Trudeau when it comes to the Koreas...and a lot of other "files". Edited June 14, 2018 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dialamah Posted June 14, 2018 Report Share Posted June 14, 2018 7 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said: Trump still matters a lot more than Trudeau I wonder why you keep saying this. It seems to mean a great deal to you that Trump "matters more" on the world stahe and you seem to think we should care. But. of course Trump "matters more" and that is kinda the point; having a simple-minded, ego-driven nepotist as the head of government of what is still, arguably, one of the most powerful countries in the world "matters". He's what .. A year and a half in and he has essentially alienated democratic allies around the world and is currying favor with despots. And don't try on that bullshit about "your PM met with bad guys too" because the key difference here is that our PMs have not turned on and backstabbed allies the way that Trump has. Also, your dumb, but *very important* president has clearly made one of the worst deals ever; outwitted by "rocket man". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paxamericana Posted June 14, 2018 Report Share Posted June 14, 2018 SO much misinformation here..., look as far as North Korea is concern, they got what they want out of the meeting with the president. We got our citizen back and some gesture at destroying their nuclear tunnels. It takes time to work out the details. Call it a propaganda victory for them but wait a minute this propaganda victory only serves their local audiences, no body in the world really take North Korea seriously either way so no big loss on our part. Remember the real prize for the north koreans is that we pull out our troops from the peninsula, they didn't get it. Did trump hint at it sure but again I would just put that as part of trump negotiating tactics from his book art of the deal "tell them what they want to hear". If our state department find the North Koreans have a breech of faith then the sanctions will go back into place and our troops would jump from japan to north korea in a matter of days. Now on the the Iranian part, no doubt about it ladies and gentleman, Iran (fundamentalist regime) ,can not be allowed to have a more prosperous economy as they will use this money to challenge US dominance in other theaters as they have done in Yemen, Syria , Palestine etc... Giving the Iranians back their funds and removing sanctions was a huge mistake in the first place, an error on the the side of the Obama administration. It is in our best interest to isolate Iran until they become dirt poor like north korea and renegotiate, not just for nukes but to stop causing havoc in the middle east with their funding of extremist groups and proxy wars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted June 14, 2018 Report Share Posted June 14, 2018 (edited) 27 minutes ago, dialamah said: I wonder why you keep saying this. It seems to mean a great deal to you that Trump "matters more" on the world stahe and you seem to think we should care. But. of course Trump "matters more" and that is kinda the point; having a simple-minded, ego-driven nepotist as the head of government of what is still, arguably, one of the most powerful countries in the world "matters". That's why I keep repeating it...thank you for agreeing with me. Trump matters more than Trudeau...and Macron...and Merkel...and Abe....and.....you get the idea. Canada is a NATO/NORAD deadbeat...doesn't get to eat at the adults table when it comes to North Korea. Quote He's what .. A year and a half in and he has essentially alienated democratic allies around the world and is currying favor with despots. And don't try on that bullshit about "your PM met with bad guys too" because the key difference here is that our PMs have not turned on and backstabbed allies the way that Trump has. Also, your dumb, but *very important* president has clearly made one of the worst deals ever; outwitted by "rocket man". You have only reinforced my point...because whatever deals your PMs have made with murderous dictators, they are trivial compared to the responsibility Trump has as U.S. president. American presidents make deals all the time....Canada gets to watch on TV. Edited June 14, 2018 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted June 14, 2018 Report Share Posted June 14, 2018 (edited) 18 hours ago, Jimwd said: There is no agreement. No dates..no definitions..nothing.. Trump tore up Iran deal that was working with no replacement. Now he has nothing. Utter and total failure. How can there be a replacement.....if Iran doesn't want a replacement? Iran is fighting it. And why would Iran want a replacement..........if Iran had such a win-win deal with Obama? If I'm Iran, I won't want any changes too. Edited June 14, 2018 by betsy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted June 14, 2018 Report Share Posted June 14, 2018 (edited) 6 hours ago, dialamah said: I wonder why you keep saying this. It seems to mean a great deal to you that Trump "matters more" on the world stahe and you seem to think we should care. Because it's true. And the world cares. Even our media! Since Trump came into office......he overshadowed news about Trudeau! He's more covered by our news channel than our own PM! Heck, the White House daily briefing suddenly is so important! I've never seen the WH daily briefing covered as such at any time. People - and other leaders - may not want to acknowledge it, but Trump is re-shaping the world. Look at the Korean peninsula. The Mid-east! Israel! NAFTA! Given time, he'll have a hand in re-shaping even our own system - like, the supply management! Like, do you think Italy would be so stubborn to refuse refugees if they don't have this new populist government? Where do you think the inspiration came from? Edited June 14, 2018 by betsy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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