U.S. imposing steel and aluminum tariffs on Canada, Mexico and Europe

[capricorn]

13 minutes ago, Argus said:

Eight million American jobs depend on trade with Canada

What's to say those jobs would disappear without NAFTA or other trade deals? Are you saying the flow of those goods would be lost due to resulting excise and other taxes?

[bush_cheney2004]

1 hour ago, Argus said:

Eight million American jobs depend on trade with Canada. We're the top export destination for 35 states. You might consider eight million jobs useless but I doubt the people who work them, or their families do.

 

This is a false narrative....8 million American jobs would not just disappear because of Canada.  

Remember this....and remember it well:

Quote

The Canadian government is fond of repeating that Canada is the most important foreign market for 35 U.S. states, in an effort to head off rising American protectionism, and this statistic came up several times during a crucial first meeting Monday between Prime Minister Justin Trudeau and President Donald Trump in Washington. But this calculation of the benefit Canada provides to its southern neighbour glosses over the fact that the United States, with ten times the population, is far less reliant on foreign trade in general.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/how-much-trade-leverage-does-canada-really-have-with-united-states/article34014567/

 

 

 

Edited June 1, 2018 by bush_cheney2004

[Argus]

41 minutes ago, capricorn said:

What's to say those jobs would disappear without NAFTA or other trade deals? Are you saying the flow of those goods would be lost due to resulting excise and other taxes?

Most of what we send the US is raw resources. Most of what the US sends us are manufactured goods and services. We are their best customer. If they could sell those things to Americans they would, and no doubt are doing their best, but Canada represents an important market, as well. And it's hardly just us. Five millions US jobs depend on Mexico. Millions more on trade with Europe and China. And everyone is going to be putting up tariffs against US goods. That's going to cost US jobs. Oh, they'll get some of those jobs back by eliminating a lot of imports. But almost all that stuff will cost more now. People will still buy toasters that cost twice as much, but they won't by as many of them or as often. Instead of buying Chinese made shirts for $20 you can buy American made shirts for $50. Will you buy as many? No. 

This kind of thing is stupid, brainless and profits no one. The only people moronic enough to cheer for it are ignorant yokels who know nothing about trade or economics. They're the same breed who were cheering and screaming for Adolph Hitler and Benito Mussolini as 'strong men' who would "make Germany/Italy great again'. The same mentality who cheer on Putin and Erdogan and Duterte. They need to see themselves as part of something great and powerful who can destroy its enemies - even if they have to make the enemies first.

Edited June 1, 2018 by Argus

[capricorn]

24 minutes ago, Argus said:

This kind of thing is stupid, brainless and profits no one. The only people moronic enough to cheer for it are ignorant yokels who know nothing about trade or economics. They're the same breed who were cheering and screaming for Adolph Hitler and Benito Mussolini as 'strong men' who would "make Germany/Italy great again'. The same mentality who cheer on Putin and Erdogan and Duterte. They need to see themselves as part of something great and powerful who can destroy its enemies - even if they have to make the enemies first.

To be honest, I fail to see how invoking Hitler, Mussolini, Putin, Erdogan and Duterte advances your opinion on this issue.

[OftenWrong]

3 hours ago, eyeball said:

So cave in to Trump is your suggestion? This probably explains why right wingers can't do anything about lefties except cry - all show and no go, except for running away.

No, my suggestions is to stay calm and patient, and attempt to negotiate with Mr. Trump. Do not go on the attack. Trudeau should have figured out a way to get into that meeting, rather than storm off. He has no experience, thus no idea how to negotiate. And why would he... like a high school boy got to be the PM.

[bush_cheney2004]

9 minutes ago, capricorn said:

To be honest, I fail to see how invoking Hitler, Mussolini, Putin, Erdogan and Duterte advances your opinion on this issue.

 

It's the go to play...desperation comparison.    Hitler and Nazis have new life because of such nonsense.

Trudeau imposed tariffs of 240% on U.S. made gypsum board, but he was not compared to "Hitler".

[bush_cheney2004]

2 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

No, my suggestions is to stay calm and patient, and attempt to negotiate with Mr. Trump. Do not go on the attack. Trudeau should have figured out a way to get into that meeting, rather than storm off. He has no experience, thus no idea how to negotiate. And why would he... like a high school boy got to be the PM.

 

Trudeau was "playing to his base" for domestic political reasons.

Trump has already proposed unilateral trade deals with Canada and Mexico instead of NAFTA.

Of course, Canada wants to keep its protections on dairy imports...."because".

Edited June 2, 2018 by bush_cheney2004

[OftenWrong]

5 hours ago, WIP said:

The Canadian economy used to be run for the benefit of Canada/not begging for better terms from the US! Once again, conservatives show they are the real traitors of this country!

The trade model of the free world is built upon these international agreements, supported by consecutive governments, so making it into a conservative issue is nonsensical. 

[OftenWrong]

4 hours ago, capricorn said:

Looks like the Liberals were not paying attention when Trumps was elected POTUS. One of his main platform planks was "making America great again". He railed against the decline of US manufacturing and how other nations were taking advantage of trade deals that weaken that sector. His message was loud and clear. A country like Canada cannot possibly expect to bring the US to its knees on trade just with tough words or retaliation. I'm not a diplomat or a negotiator and I don't know what would work. Obviously the Liberals don't know either.

 

[angrypenguin]

Some interesting videos here.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBgGjoGof6A

 

[cannuck]

12 hours ago, eyeball said:

Effing right-wingers have been peddling this socialists are traitors shit for years, its like talking about the weather but never doing anything about it.  Either put up or shut-up, borrow a page from Pinochet's handbook or something.

Great idea.  Let's start a Kill a Commie for Christ movement.

Edited June 2, 2018 by cannuck

[cannuck]

7 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

This is a false narrative....8 million American jobs would not just disappear because of Canada.  

Remember this....and remember it well:

 

 

 

I would love to see comparisson numbers from the new Can/US FTA days, when about 70% of all Can/US trade was under the Auto Pact, and almost all of that was between ON and MI (for obvious reasons).   For NB: I suppose 50% of SFA is pretty much SFA.  I imagine the big numbers for MB (electricity) SK (ag & petro) and AB (petro and mfg petro equip) are bigger under NAFTA than they were back then.

Edited June 2, 2018 by cannuck

[bush_cheney2004]

7 minutes ago, cannuck said:

I would love to see comparisson numbers from the new Can/US FTA days, when about 70% of all Can/US trade was under the Auto Pact, and almost all of that was between ON and MI (for obvious reasons).   For NB: I suppose 50% of SFA is pretty much SFA.  I imagine the big numbers for MB (electricity) SK (ag) and AB (petro and mfg petro equip) are bigger under NAFTA than they were back then.

 

Thanks for clarifying...at first glance I couldn't explain/understand why tiny NB would be at 50% of GDP, but given its small population and total GDP, basic math drives that large number and relative imbalance.  For AB, and Canada's total U.S. trade, it was easy to see the impact of natural resources when plummeting oil prices put a big dent in the number.

BC has been living with forced and voluntary softwood lumber export caps for decades, as this battle was enjoined long ago...decoupled from NAFTA.   Steel and aluminum are just getting to this phase of trade conflict, but there has been a global struggle and consolidation for steel dumping because of China regardless of Trump.

 

[cannuck]

9 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

BC has been living with forced and voluntary softwood lumber export caps for decades, as this battle was enjoined long ago...decoupled from NAFTA.   Steel and aluminum are just getting to this phase of trade conflict, but there has been a global struggle and consolidation for steel dumping because of China regardless of Trump.

BC actually does HUGE numbers of trade with US, almost all export but 100% undeclared (grass).  The softwood stuff doesn't bother BC too much any more since nobody there works at much of anything except growing weed and selling houses to Chinese expats.

AB is a little harder to understand.  The Athabasca sands represent over $100Bn of investment, mostly US, but without a pipeline to Cushing, not a lot of production yet.  It WAS once a major ag producer, but maybe 30 years ago, manufacturing (much of it for the North American oil patch) surpassed ag.   The petro activity is down dramatically since the commies got elected and oil prices tanked, but will make a comeback after next election (price is helping now, but some of the biggies, such as Husky, refuse to invest in Nutjob's AB.

 

 

[Argus]

21 hours ago, capricorn said:

To be honest, I fail to see how invoking Hitler, Mussolini, Putin, Erdogan and Duterte advances your opinion on this issue.

Because it points to Trump's motivations. He sees himself as a 'strongman' and is continually frustrated at the limitations on his power. All the political leaders he's expressed admiration for are autocratic dictators. He wants to be one. Throwing his weight around on trade is one of the few areas he isn't constrained by the US constitution and courts.

Trump's motivation on trade, in other words, has pretty much zero to do with trade or with what's good for America or American commerce, and pretty much everything to do with the personal satisfaction he gets in throwing his weight around and acting like a tough guy.

Edited June 2, 2018 by Argus

[bush_cheney2004]

Canada made itself far more dependent on the U.S. economy and trade policies of U.S. presidents/Congress long before Trump came along.

Nixon did the same thing.....and went on to win the 1972 election.

 

[capricorn]

1 hour ago, Argus said:

Because it points to Trump's motivations. He sees himself as a 'strongman' and is continually frustrated at the limitations on his power. All the political leaders he's expressed admiration for are autocratic dictators. He wants to be one. Throwing his weight around on trade is one of the few areas he isn't constrained by the US constitution and courts.

Trump's motivation on trade, in other words, has pretty much zero to do with trade or with what's good for America or American commerce, and pretty much everything to do with the personal satisfaction he gets in throwing his weight around and acting like a tough guy.

Trump came in as POTUS with no experience as a politician and is trying to find his footing in politics. IMO he's still in the "trial and error" phase. I'm well aware that a grave miscalculation on his part could have disastrous consequences. As I said elsewhere there are safeguards in the US Constitution to protect against such actions. I concede he is puffing his chest out to convey a sign of strength. Yet, I think he believes that doing so will send out a signal that he will act in the best interest of the US come hell or high water. But to put him in the same category as the villains you did is over the top and I flatly disagree with that.

[bush_cheney2004]

1 hour ago, capricorn said:

Trump came in as POTUS with no experience as a politician and is trying to find his footing in politics. IMO he's still in the "trial and error" phase. I'm well aware that a grave miscalculation on his part could have disastrous consequences. As I said elsewhere there are safeguards in the US Constitution to protect against such actions. I concede he is puffing his chest out to convey a sign of strength....

 

Yes, and that was Trump's appeal to many U.S. voters.    He outrageously destroyed his very conventional rivals during the primaries,  was nominated over the strong protests of the Republican party power brokers, and defeated Hillary Clinton by breaking every "rule" in the book.    Trump was elected to be a change agent, not what has come before.

Still, Trump is not the first president to impose tariffs on Canada or any other nation.   All of this drama just plays into Trump's intention(s) and purpose.

[Argus]

2 hours ago, capricorn said:

 I concede he is puffing his chest out to convey a sign of strength. Yet, I think he believes that doing so will send out a signal that he will act in the best interest of the US come hell or high water. But to put him in the same category as the villains you did is over the top and I flatly disagree with that.

You flatly disagree with that while hoping the safeguards in the constitution will stop him from going that route. He CLEARLY would go that route if he was able to do so.  Do you honestly think the New York Times or Washington Post would still be in business if Trump was able to shut them down? Not to mention CNN. Trump admires dictators. He has expressed enormous respect for Putin, and after one or two meetings, declared he and China's dictator for life Xi Jinping best pals. He befriends Duterte and says not one thing about his habit of murdering people. He says good things about Turkey's Erdogen and Saudi King Al Saud. What democratic state leader has he expressed such devotion for as he has this collection of dictators? He's made nasty sounds towards pretty much every leader of every democracy he's met that isn't immediately obsequious towards him.

I don't think Trump cares about America or anything else. He cares about Trump, and that's it. He does what he thinks his base will like so he can parade up and down in front of them like Benito Mussolini and get applause. he neither knows nor understands nor is interested in learning anything about trade, because his decisions are only based on what he think his base will reward him for.

[bush_cheney2004]

If the only kind of wars that Trump starts are trade wars, he will still be doing far better than many previous U.S. presidents and Canadian prime ministers who have started real wars with a much higher body count...and love for proxy dictators.

[capricorn]

25 minutes ago, Argus said:

I don't think Trump cares about America or anything else. He cares about Trump, and that's it. He does what he thinks his base will like so he can parade up and down in front of them like Benito Mussolini and get applause. he neither knows nor understands nor is interested in learning anything about trade, because his decisions are only based on what he think his base will reward him for.

You contradict yourself. On one hand you say that Trump only cares for Trump. Then, you say his decisions are based in order to play to his base. How can he act strictly for himself while at the same time acting to please his base?

[betsy]

On 6/1/2018 at 5:46 PM, OftenWrong said:

No, my suggestions is to stay calm and patient, and attempt to negotiate with Mr. Trump. Do not go on the attack. Trudeau should have figured out a way to get into that meeting, rather than storm off. He has no experience, thus no idea how to negotiate. And why would he... like a high school boy got to be the PM.

The only strategy they knew was this so-called "charm offensive!"   They blew that too, by blabbing to the media that that's what they're going to do.

    Who blabs about things like that?  On TV!   I know, they were showing their confidence and saying that to Canadians......but, of course,  Trump people in the White House would get wind of  that!

Right off the bath, you're putting yourself in a losing position!  This "charm offensive" actually makes your opponent resist you harder.....because you warned them about it!    If they allow themselves to be "charmed" - it means they're dough-heads who can easily fall for something like that!  In other words, if they concede (even if charm had nothing to do with it), it will still look like they did get charmed. 

Now, who wants to look like a softie?

 

 

Edited June 3, 2018 by betsy

[cannuck]

Do I need to remind you that we HAD a "charming" POTUS for 8 years prior to Trump.  The end result is that the world got ISIS and a nuclear North Korea, banks "too big to fail" were rewarded for their treachery while the US paid more to have him than the cost of all other Presidents and wars combined.

[Argus]

16 hours ago, capricorn said:

You contradict yourself. On one hand you say that Trump only cares for Trump. Then, you say his decisions are based in order to play to his base. How can he act strictly for himself while at the same time acting to please his base?

Because he's the ultimate narcissist. He wallows in the applause more than any politician I've ever seen. That's why he keeps going to campaign style speeches in front of loyal supporters, so he can strut before the applause of the unwashed. For Trump, everything is about ego gratification.

Edited June 3, 2018 by Argus

[Argus]

4 hours ago, cannuck said:

Do I need to remind you that we HAD a "charming" POTUS for 8 years prior to Trump.  The end result is that the world got ISIS and a nuclear North Korea, banks "too big to fail" were rewarded for their treachery while the US paid more to have him than the cost of all other Presidents and wars combined.

I'm not fan of Obama, but let's be fair here. Much of the additional costs came from the financial crisis which was brought about by his predecessor's policies.