U.S. imposing steel and aluminum tariffs on Canada, Mexico and Europe

[Machjo]

5 minutes ago, Wilber said:

No it wouldn't, many Canadian industries have closed. You seem to think that industries which disappear in your country can magically reappear. For starters, you would have to import everything to start your business with devalued currency because what you need to start your business is no longer available in your own.  The expertise you require to start an run it would no longer be there because had to go elsewhere to survive. A lower currency may make exports more competitive but it also makes you poorer. The lower currency can also be easily dealt with by just upping the tariff because there is no risk of retaliation.

On side being subsidized and the other not, Is not competition.

Tariffs make us just as poor. A lower currency would just reflect its real value under the circumstances. There are certain industries that tariffs can't stop easily such as travel and tourism, international education, and online software sales. Sure Trump could try to impose a tax on all currency conversions on all US credit card companies to deter imports of online foreign software, but then how far will US tariffs need to go to completely seal the US economy off?

[bush_cheney2004]

8 minutes ago, Wilber said:

The question was, will the tariffs be used as leverage to control Canadian foreign and trade policy which have nothing to do with existing trade rules. Given recent events, it is a perfectly reasonable question.

 

Oh contraire....the tariffs were used and will be used to countervail Canadian transshipments, IP theft, dumping, etc., regardless of Canadian foreign policy.   Canada already knows this because of softwood lumber conflicts....long before President Trump came along.

[Wilber]

1 minute ago, Machjo said:

Tariffs make us just as poor. A lower currency would just reflect its real value under the circumstances. There are certain industries that tariffs can't stop easily such as travel and tourism, international education, and online software sales. Sure Trump could try to impose a tax on all currency conversions on all US credit card companies to deter imports of online foreign software, but then how far will US tariffs need to go to completely seal the US economy off?

They don't have to seal their economy off to ruin ours. Their home market is so much bigger than ours, it can support industries that ours can't.  I'm not in favour of tariffs but why would you give a weapon to a competitor and not be prepared to use it yourself.

[bush_cheney2004]

6 minutes ago, Machjo said:

.... Sure Trump could try to impose a tax on all currency conversions on all US credit card companies to deter imports of online foreign software, but then how far will US tariffs need to go to completely seal the US economy off?

 

Not necessary in the case of Canada....25% tariff on autos was enough to get Trudeau/Freeland's focused attention.

[Wilber]

1 minute ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Oh contraire....the tariffs were used and will be used to countervail Canadian transshipments, IP theft, dumping, etc., regardless of Canadian foreign policy.   Canada already knows this because of softwood lumber conflicts....long before President Trump came along.

Sez you. Softwood lumber is a good example. You impose tariffs, we fight them, you lose, but meanwhile the damage is done. That's why the question is perfectly reasonable.

[bush_cheney2004]

Just now, Wilber said:

Sez you. Softwood lumber is a good example. You impose tariffs, we fight them, you lose, but meanwhile the damage is done. That's why the question is perfectly reasonable.

 

That's the point...to get damage done.   The previous softwood lumber dance still netted the Americans about $1 billion.

Canada can never truly win at this sort of game...it can never win a trade war with an economy that is not only 10x the size, but one on which it is so dependent.

[Machjo]

6 minutes ago, Wilber said:

They don't have to seal their economy off to ruin ours. Their home market is so much bigger than ours, it can support industries that ours can't.  I'm not in favour of tariffs but why would you give a weapon to a competitor and not be prepared to use it yourself.

Because tariffs hurt those who use it too. For example, a US factory would soon need to pay more to buy a specialized piece of equipment from abroad for which US builders might lack the necessary expertise. Look at how the aluminum tariffs hurt Harley Davidson for example. Also, Canada could still drop tariffs against other states to allow Canadian factories to import the best machinery money can buy to make themselves cutting edge.

[bush_cheney2004]

Just now, Machjo said:

Because tariffs hurt those who use it too. For example, a US factory would soon need to pay more to buy a specialized piece of equipment from abroad for which US builders might lack the necessary expertise. Look at how the aluminum tariffs hurt Harley Davidson for example. Also, Canada could still drop tariffs against other states to allow Canadian factories to import the best machinery money can buy to make themselves cutting edge.

 

Great plan, except that Canada lacks sufficient domestic capital to pursue such a strategy, and lacks market size even if it could (absent the United States).

[Wilber]

Just now, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

That's the point...to get damage done.   The previous softwood lumber dance still netted the Americans about $1 billion.

Canada can never truly win at this sort of game...it can never win a trade war with an economy that is not only 10x the size, but one on which it is so dependent.

So you admit the metal tariffs will be used against us in any manner Trump choses. That was the question. Thanks for finally answering it.

[Machjo]

6 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Not necessary in the case of Canada....25% tariff on autos was enough to get Trudeau/Freeland's focused attention.

That's Trudeau and Freeland. Had Trudeau stood firm and Trump raised the tariffs, US consumers would be paying much more for cars. Sure Canadian manufacturers would need to drop prices first and later start to downsize quickly. But the drop in wages would attract new businesses to Canada. After all, it would take a while for car factories to move the machinery from Canada to the US but they would do it. As for the buildings, they'd probably remain and be sold at a good price to an entrepreneur who sees another opportunity for it probably in a more tariff-resistant industry.

[Machjo]

1 minute ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Great plan, except that Canada lacks sufficient domestic capital to pursue such a strategy, and lacks market size even if it could (absent the United States).

With unilateral free trade, Canada's market size would extend far beyond Canada's borders to include other states, though I grant it might be a more disparate market imposing higher transportation costs. But still, it would still be something. Canada could also open itself up to foreign investment. Hong Kong and Singapore investors would love to invest in Canada.

[bush_cheney2004]

1 minute ago, Wilber said:

So you admit the metal tariffs will be used against us in any manner Trump choses. That was the question. Thanks for finally answering it.

 

Of course....why was that ever in doubt ?   Tariffs are the club that Trump will use to hammer Canada or any other nation...regardless of foreign policy.

[Wilber]

3 minutes ago, Machjo said:

Because tariffs hurt those who use it too. For example, a US factory would soon need to pay more to buy a specialized piece of equipment from abroad for which US builders might lack the necessary expertise. Look at how the aluminum tariffs hurt Harley Davidson for example. Also, Canada could still drop tariffs against other states to allow Canadian factories to import the best machinery money can buy to make themselves cutting edge.

Tariffs hurt consumers but it depends on where the consumers are. Although the metal tariffs helped, HD moved production more because of new European tariffs on their bikes. Europe is a growing market as the North American market is shrinking.

Why would we charge tariffs on something we no longer make. Canada would just be buying machinery with a devalued dollar.

[bush_cheney2004]

3 minutes ago, Machjo said:

That's Trudeau and Freeland. Had Trudeau stood firm and Trump raised the tariffs, US consumers would be paying much more for cars. Sure Canadian manufacturers would need to drop prices first and later start to downsize quickly. But the drop in wages would attract new businesses to Canada. After all, it would take a while for car factories to move the machinery from Canada to the US but they would do it. As for the buildings, they'd probably remain and be sold at a good price to an entrepreneur who sees another opportunity for it probably in a more tariff-resistant industry.

 

Nope...there would be pushback from Canadian labour unions and political special interest groups....would be so neat and clean.

Canadians already pay a lot more for cars..."Made in Canada".

 

[Machjo]

1 minute ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Of course....why was that ever in doubt ?   Tariffs are the club that Trump will use to hammer Canada or any other nation...regardless of foreign policy.

And there is absolutely nothing Canada can do with that fool. Instead of negotiating with that buffoon, Canada should have showed him the proverbial finger and adopted unilateral free trade with the world. There would undoubtedly have been major growing pains, but our economy would have adapted within a generation as long as the state invested generously in universal compulsory public education and trades and professional education for the unemployed and underemployed.

[bush_cheney2004]

1 minute ago, Machjo said:

And there is absolutely nothing Canada can do with that fool. Instead of negotiating with that buffoon, Canada should have showed him the proverbial finger and adopted unilateral free trade with the world. There would undoubtedly have been major growing pains, but our economy would have adapted within a generation as long as the state invested generously in universal compulsory public education and trades and professional education for the unemployed and underemployed.

 

Agreed...but Canada did the easiest thing instead....stay dependent on the American market and foreign direct investment.

Hell, even the "highly educated" Canadians seek better opportunities and compensation in the USA.

[Machjo]

2 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Nope...there would be pushback from Canadian labour unions and political special interest groups....would be so neat and clean.

Canadians already pay a lot more for cars..."Made in Canada".

 

So maybe Canada needs right-to-work laws.

Perhaps Canada would adopt a policy to gradually eliminate tariffs over a seventy-year period to give businesses time to adapt.

[bush_cheney2004]

Just now, Machjo said:

So maybe Canada needs right-to-work laws.

Perhaps Canada would adopt a policy to gradually eliminate tariffs over a seventy-year period to give businesses time to adapt.

 

Sure...Canada could do a lot of things...but we know what the current ruling government decided to do instead.

A better idea would be to become far more diversified for export trade....like the...United States.

[Machjo]

19 minutes ago, Wilber said:

So you admit the metal tariffs will be used against us in any manner Trump choses. That was the question. Thanks for finally answering it.

Trump is a thug. What do you expect from him? You seriously think Canada could negotiate with someone like that?

[bush_cheney2004]

1 minute ago, Machjo said:

Trump is a thug. What do you expect from him? You seriously think Canada could negotiate with someone like that?

 

But it's not just Trump....it is Obama...it is Bush #43...it is Clinton....it is any American president.

Again...big fish eat little fish.

[Wilber]

4 minutes ago, Machjo said:

So maybe Canada needs right-to-work laws.

Perhaps Canada would adopt a policy to gradually eliminate tariffs over a seventy-year period to give businesses time to adapt.

Adapt to what, you don't know what other countries are going to do. Under CETA, auto tariffs between Canada and the EU are being phased out in parallel over 5 to 7 years.  

[Zeitgeist]

52 minutes ago, Wilber said:

The question was, will the tariffs be used as leverage to control Canadian foreign and trade policy which have nothing to do with existing trade rules. Given recent events, it is a perfectly reasonable question.

I think Parliament should make removal of the steel and aluminum tariffs a condition of ratification.  Don't care which U.S. department is in charge of which aspect of trade policy.  They need to go.  For me, that was the biggest stone left unturned.  We're fools if we wait for the U.S. to remove these tariffs out of the goodness of their hearts.  No goodness; no hearts.  I don't see how our counter-tariffs can't be taking a toll, given that the U.S. sends more steel our way than the reverse and U.S. Steel is one of our steel producers!  Did someone miss the memo?

[Machjo]

8 minutes ago, Wilber said:

Adapt to what, you don't know what other countries are going to do. Under CETA, auto tariffs between Canada and the EU are being phased out in parallel over 5 to 7 years.  

Unilateral free trade would amount to a tax reduction on businesses that may need to import parts and machinery from abroad. That actually would put them at a competitive advantage in world trade. Furthermore, with consumers paying less in tafiffs too, workers would be less interested in pushing for higher wages when the price of goods and services would be dropping. This too could help to reduce or at least maintain business costs.

[Zeitgeist]

21 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Sure...Canada could do a lot of things...but we know what the current ruling government decided to do instead.

A better idea would be to become far more diversified for export trade....like the...United States.

But the U.S. isn't a big exporter in general as compared to what it imports.  There are astonishingly few U.S. auto exports to Asia.  The U.S. might drive down imports, but it would seem much more needs to be done to increase exports, and I don't think the world is bullish on buying U.S. right now.

[Machjo]

2 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

I think Parliament should make removal of the steel and aluminum tariffs a condition of ratification.  Don't care which U.S. department is in charge of which aspect of trade policy.  They need to go.  For me, that was the biggest stone left unturned.  We're fools if we wait for the U.S. to remove these tariffs out of the goodness of their hearts.  No goodness; no hearts.  I don't see how our counter-tariffs can't be taking a toll, given that the U.S. sends more steel our way than the reverse and U.S. Steel is one of our steel producers!  Did someone miss the memo?

That's it? What about the clause restricting Canada's freedom to negotiate trade agreements with other states? What about the increased North-American content rules which again will make it more difficult for Canada to trade with other states? You think we should have agreed to that? Honestly, Us steel tariffs are a minor concern compared to these.