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Far too simple and leads to the polarization of views as perpetuated by the CBC and The Star - and often evident on this board. Socialist programs championed by the Left have to be paid for with Capitalist dollars earned on the Right - both are needed but they have to work in a symbiotic relationship - not an  antagonistic one. Conservative and traditional Liberal parties have always managed to straddle the line without veering too far off center. It's why we have Blue Liberals and Red Tories - the fiscally responsible swing voters who move back and forth based on policy, leadership and their perceived needs of the province/country when they cast their vote.

The Ontario NDP don't understand - or refuse to accept that symbiotic relationship at all. The Wynne Liberals have abandoned that traditional principle in their raw lust to cling to power. 

Edited by Centerpiece
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2 minutes ago, Centerpiece said:

Far too simple and leads to the polarization of views as perpetuated by the CBC and The Star - and often evident on this board. Socialist programs championed by the Left have to be paid for with Capitalist dollars earned on the Right - both are needed but they have to work in a symbiotic relationship - not an  antagonistic one. Conservative and traditional Liberal parties have always managed to straddle the line without veering too far off center. The NDP don't understand - or refuse to accept that symbiotic relationship at all. The Wynne Liberals have abandoned that traditional principle in their raw lust to cling to power. 

Very well put. Thanks for your insight!

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People need to look at the NDP candidates, to see what the cabinet would be like. It scares the living hell out of me. To have a bunch of radicals who are anti oil, anti poppy pro nazis and some down right nutty people. At least ford has some smart people that understand waht it takes to run a province. I have had enough of activist running the country.

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1 hour ago, Centerpiece said:

Socialist programs championed by the Left have to be paid for with Capitalist dollars earned on the Right

Right-wing capitalism is why we need so many social programs in the first place.

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1 minute ago, eyeball said:

Why belabour a succinctly obvious point?

This point of this forum, allegedly, is to have a discussion. If you have nothing worth discussing, why bother chiming in? You want to challenge me on my views? Great - my eyes are open. Challenge them. Lord knows I went from being a hard right fiscal Conservative to a center right one. It's called learning different perspectives and then making up one's mind. Posts like yours offer nothing of value.

Edited by angrypenguin
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Greg Gutfeld's video offers a binary perspective that is effective for his U.S. based audience, but I agree it is too simplistic and not directly applicable to a provincial election that is largely driven by local issues ("all politics is local").

Lots of voters straddle the fence by claiming to be "fiscally conservative...socially liberal".

 

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5 hours ago, angrypenguin said:

As we are in the Ontario 2018 election, I thought this would be worth discussing. Sums me up as a Con very well.

 

 

This sums me up a

This would appear to be oh so true. Liberalism would not exist at all if it were not for conservatism. Liberals need conservatives to survive and to be able to suck them dry of their hard earned money. Liberalism is truly a disease that needs to be eradicated from society. If there is one thing I know about liberals is that they all think about themselves only. It's all about me-me-me and other people's money. Disagree with them and they want your head chopped off. They only pretend that they give a dam about everybody and everything. LOL. 

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6 hours ago, angrypenguin said:

As we are in the Ontario 2018 election, I thought this would be worth discussing. Sums me up as a Con very well.

This sums me up a

Yes, I might quibble a bit here and there  but I pretty much agree. Now if someone would only ask him why he so steadfastly supports a Republican party which is not the least bit conservative...

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6 hours ago, Centerpiece said:

Far too simple and leads to the polarization of views as perpetuated by the CBC and The Star - and often evident on this board. Socialist programs championed by the Left have to be paid for with Capitalist dollars earned on the Right - both are needed but they have to work in a symbiotic relationship - not an  antagonistic one.

They are symbiotic, but at the same time they are direct polar opposites. Capitalism makes the money. Socialism spends it. But Socialists seem to despise Capitalism. And Socialism damages the workability of Capitalism. The more Socialism you have, the less Capitalism works.

6 hours ago, Centerpiece said:

Conservative and traditional Liberal parties have always managed to straddle the line without veering too far off center. It's why we have Blue Liberals and Red Tories - the fiscally responsible swing voters who move back and forth based on policy, leadership and their perceived needs of the province/country when they cast their vote.

I think you'll find precious few blue Liberals any more. Trudeau pretty much made it clear they aren't welcome in his party.

6 hours ago, Centerpiece said:

The Ontario NDP don't understand - or refuse to accept that symbiotic relationship at all. The Wynne Liberals have abandoned that traditional principle in their raw lust to cling to power. 

They're just doing what Trudeau showed them was the way to win. By moving so strongly to the Left, they absorb NDP votes and make the NDP irrelevant. 

 

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2 hours ago, angrypenguin said:

Lord knows I went from being a hard right fiscal Conservative to a center right one. It's called learning different perspectives and then making up one's mind. Posts like yours offer nothing of value.

Capitalism is inherently sociopathic and even more unpleasant if not toxic when right-wing morality is added.  How will the moral imperative to produce and carry one's own weight apply when automation and robots wipe out most labour as we know it?

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14 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Capitalism is inherently sociopathic and even more unpleasant if not toxic when right-wing morality is added.  How will the moral imperative to produce and carry one's own weight apply when automation and robots wipe out most labour as we know it?

 

It is generally important to view anything in life moderately. There will never be a position when robots and such wipe out most labour as we know at, and even if that may happen, it won't happen in our timeframe. But let's humour your example a bit. This did "basically" happen in the industrial revolution when farming wiped out most manual labour with the advent of heavy machinery, but that ultimately spawned a whole new type of work - namely educated mechanical work. Robots won't be able to fix themselves (again, at least in our time on this planet). So best if we take a more moderate approach here. Pure capitalism is extreme, as is pure socialism. The happy balance lies somewhere in the middle.

As Conservative as I am, I have not met anyone in my friend space, who is a publicly outed Con or a closet Con who is truly right wing. We all believe in progressive taxation, and we all believe the rich should pay more in taxes. I'm fairly certain that would surprise you and others (we all make over 200K). The general consensus is if the marginal tax rate for our group is at 50%, we'd be fine with that. Does that surprise you given we're all pretty much "capitalist" people? It sure did for me

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34 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Capitalism is inherently sociopathic and even more unpleasant if not toxic when right-wing morality is added.  How will the moral imperative to produce and carry one's own weight apply when automation and robots wipe out most labour as we know it?

Since we're talking Canadian politics, what are you actually trying to say about the real world of Canadian Conservatives and Liberals? For example, are you calling all business owners crooks and criminals? Is Ronald McDonald House a front for the mafia? You're missing the main point of democracy which for our purposes, is usually entrusted by the people to groups of people that we refer to as political parties. It seems to go unsaid that a major responsibility is to minimize the potential rough edges of otherwise unrestrained Capitalism. But lets not forget that even the old-fashioned "barter system" was a form of capitalism - you were a crook at your own peril.  Let's put some definitions to your little diatribe - but I regret that I can't find a definition for "Right-wing morality" - or Left-wing for that matter.

Capitalism: an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state.

Sociopath: a person with a psychopathic personality whose behavior is antisocial, often criminal, and who lacks a sense of moral responsibility or social conscience.

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11 hours ago, angrypenguin said:

 

It is generally important to view anything in life moderately. There will never be a position when robots and such wipe out most labour as we know at, and even if that may happen, it won't happen in our timeframe. But let's humour your example a bit. This did "basically" happen in the industrial revolution when farming wiped out most manual labour with the advent of heavy machinery, but that ultimately spawned a whole new type of work - namely educated mechanical work. Robots won't be able to fix themselves (again, at least in our time on this planet). So best if we take a more moderate approach here. Pure capitalism is extreme, as is pure socialism. The happy balance lies somewhere in the middle.

 

Your view is interesting, what you're saying is humankind is moving from using the machine to serving it?

I'm noticing a trend and it doesn't matter what political color is running the country. Our goal is to evolve into beings that never leave our climate controlled cubical. Globalization wants to put everyone into truck cabs and offices processing paperwork, technology wants to make the rest of us mechanics and IT professionals. 

The human being is a fascinating creature. We put the washer and dryer on the main level so we don't have to use the stairs then put a stair master in the next room, we buy a car so we don't have to walk then buy a treadmill or drive to the gym and use theirs. We mine, process and ship raw materials around the world (sometimes several times) to be made into finished products to be shipped back to us. We want to eliminate climate change but are doing everything we can to cause more. And again it doesn't matter what political stripe you are. 

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29 minutes ago, Thinkinoutsidethebox said:

Your view is interesting, what you're saying is humankind is moving from using the machine to serving it?

I'm noticing a trend and it doesn't matter what political color is running the country. Our goal is to evolve into beings that never leave our climate controlled cubical. Globalization wants to put everyone into truck cabs and offices processing paperwork, technology wants to make the rest of us mechanics and IT professionals. 

The human being is a fascinating creature. We put the washer and dryer on the main level so we don't have to use the stairs then put a stair master in the next room, we buy a car so we don't have to walk then buy a treadmill or drive to the gym and use theirs. We mine, process and ship raw materials around the world (sometimes several times) to be made into finished products to be shipped back to us. We want to eliminate climate change but are doing everything we can to cause more. And again it doesn't matter what political stripe you are. 

 

What a fantastic post, especially the last paragraph, but I do want to address your first paragraph/question. No, at least not quite. I am putting forward the suggestion that humankind is moving from a position of using machines to servicing it, maintaining it, developing it, controlling it. We see this today, at an albeit primitive level with things like Alexa/Cortana. I can take a random guess in that a few years receptionists will be relegated to a job that once existed, and in another 15-20 years, maybe even higher order administrative assistant type jobs such as Exec Admins. Post industrial revolution, we've been turning to science for some time to improve food yields, and to drive down the cost of food (think GMOs - whether or not anyone is for/against GMOs isn't the point here). We are now seeing cars that are using natural language interface, machine learning, artificial intelligence and this is beyond the fact that we're now approaching Level 4 semi-autonomous driving cars, and maybe in another 10 years we'll hit Level 5.

In the early 2000s, the dawn of the internet was born. In in 2010s, we've seriously given cloud computing a boot up the ass and have made some tremendous gains. Brick and mortar stores have been replaced with e-Stores, and I think that as we develop rotors, machines, cloud type stuff, that humankind and the jobs that are associated with it will move further and further into the realm of controlling robots/machines/computers. Back in the 1990s, we humans controlled a bunch of things through Graphical UI, say with Windows 95 and the revelent Apple OS at the time. Now computers have gotten smarter, but we're still in a position of using/leveraging computers. We are still their masters, and in our lifetime I suspect this will still remain.

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The true masters of technology are the owners.  You can start a company to create a stronger paper clip, and good luck with that.  Do you think your revenues will ever match those of World of Warcraft online ?  

Technology will continue to change us, and displace workers.  Truck drivers, manufacturing assemblers, fork lift drivers... you are on notice.

As technology displaces those people, we need to also displace the Protestant work ethic and soon.


 

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7 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

The true masters of technology are the owners.  You can start a company to create a stronger paper clip, and good luck with that.  Do you think your revenues will ever match those of World of Warcraft online ?  

Technology will continue to change us, and displace workers.  Truck drivers, manufacturing assemblers, fork lift drivers... you are on notice.

As technology displaces those people, we need to also displace the Protestant work ethic and soon.


 

Change us? Yes, agreed. Displace workers? Yes - but that doesn't mean those workers will end up unemployed. Take the fork lift drivers. Prior to the advent of light/med machinery, the only way to move heavy stuff around was by manual labor and pulleys and ropes, then a bunch of those people ended up having to find new jobs - say by using fork lifts. Now, we see fork lift drivers being displaced by those robots in factories that can move things around - well great, then someone has to learn how to program those robots and how to continually improve them. Also, those robots need servicing, and I will make a hypothesis that that is where fork lift drivers will end up working on.

In your example, you are comparing a high margin business with very high up front costs to a low-med margin business with much lower up front costs, so you're not comparing apples to apples. Anyways, my whole point on this topic is that it's not black/white and it's not a zero sum game nor do I feel we should take everything to such an extreme. Will we end up with mass unemployment due to technology? No. Will people end up having to retool and to do something else to make a living? Yes, and it's been this way since...oh, well, forever.

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5 minutes ago, angrypenguin said:

1) ...but that doesn't mean those workers will end up unemployed.

2) Also, those robots need servicing, and I will make a hypothesis that that is where fork lift drivers will end up working on.

3) In your example, you are comparing a high margin business with very high up front costs to a low-med margin business with much lower up front costs, so you're not comparing apples to apples.  

4) Will we end up with mass unemployment due to technology? No. Will people end up having to retool and to do something else to make a living? Yes, and it's been this way since...oh, well, forever.

1) In the short term they likely will, but most will find new employment yes.  If their new situation is worse for them, there will be a political price to pay.

2) Yes, but there isn't a 1:1 ratio between robots and robot maintenance people.

3) I didn't mean to pay attention to the details of the business other than to say online businesses are far more lucrative and promising on many levels.

4) Economists tend to agree with you however the short-term political costs are still there.

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On 5/31/2018 at 7:47 AM, angrypenguin said:

 

What a fantastic post, especially the last paragraph, but I do want to address your first paragraph/question. No, at least not quite. I am putting forward the suggestion that humankind is moving from a position of using machines to servicing it, maintaining it, developing it, controlling it. We see this today, at an albeit primitive level with things like Alexa/Cortana. I can take a random guess in that a few years receptionists will be relegated to a job that once existed, and in another 15-20 years, maybe even higher order administrative assistant type jobs such as Exec Admins. Post industrial revolution, we've been turning to science for some time to improve food yields, and to drive down the cost of food (think GMOs - whether or not anyone is for/against GMOs isn't the point here). We are now seeing cars that are using natural language interface, machine learning, artificial intelligence and this is beyond the fact that we're now approaching Level 4 semi-autonomous driving cars, and maybe in another 10 years we'll hit Level 5.

In the early 2000s, the dawn of the internet was born. In in 2010s, we've seriously given cloud computing a boot up the ass and have made some tremendous gains. Brick and mortar stores have been replaced with e-Stores, and I think that as we develop rotors, machines, cloud type stuff, that humankind and the jobs that are associated with it will move further and further into the realm of controlling robots/machines/computers. Back in the 1990s, we humans controlled a bunch of things through Graphical UI, say with Windows 95 and the revelent Apple OS at the time. Now computers have gotten smarter, but we're still in a position of using/leveraging computers. We are still their masters, and in our lifetime I suspect this will still remain.

I may be a bit out of the loop but I don't use virtual assistants myself and I've never seen anybody use them. I don't dictate to my computer, phone or tablets, I still type everything. I try it at times but it just doesn't fit and I find I lose more time trying to use it than if I go back to doing things manually.  Maybe I'm wrong but I get the feeling the only users of these products are the developers and diehard geeks, is your world different? I'm not sure that humankind is willing to accept the invasiveness of AI and wonder if the actual use of these technologies is soon to plateau, at least for awhile.  I have kids and several nieces and nephews and they were pretty exited when they first got into high tech but have all backed off considerably and use them mainly for some entertainment and communication. 

I don't understand what cloud computing is supposed to accomplish, if robots are supposed to replace human labour but the humans displaced are supposed to control the robots why not just have humans do the job? What are we actually accomplishing if we are taking the pride and enjoyment of a job well done ad putting ourselves into a cubical to babysit and maintain machines? We are not the masters if we spend our lives chasing, troubleshooting and maintaining machines. 

My opinion :) 

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19 minutes ago, Thinkinoutsidethebox said:

I may be a bit out of the loop but I don't use virtual assistants myself and I've never seen anybody use them. I don't dictate to my computer, phone or tablets, I still type everything. I try it at times but it just doesn't fit and I find I lose more time trying to use it than if I go back to doing things manually.  Maybe I'm wrong but I get the feeling the only users of these products are the developers and diehard geeks, is your world different? I'm not sure that humankind is willing to accept the invasiveness of AI and wonder if the actual use of these technologies is soon to plateau, at least for awhile. 

Virtual assistants and voice input are both still in the early adopter phase. Some people like it or just like to play with the latest tech for the cool factor. Those people are essentially beta testers, and companies will continue to improve on these products and services based on the feedback and experiences of the early adopters. Eventually, these technologies will work well enough to be practically useful to normal people doing everyday tasks, and then they will quickly proliferate. 

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20 minutes ago, Thinkinoutsidethebox said:

I may be a bit out of the loop but I don't use virtual assistants myself and I've never seen anybody use them. I don't dictate to my computer, phone or tablets, I still type everything. I try it at times but it just doesn't fit and I find I lose more time trying to use it than if I go back to doing things manually.  Maybe I'm wrong but I get the feeling the only users of these products are the developers and diehard geeks, is your world different? I'm not sure that humankind is willing to accept the invasiveness of AI and wonder if the actual use of these technologies is soon to plateau, at least for awhile.  I have kids and several nieces and nephews and they were pretty exited when they first got into high tech but have all backed off considerably and use them mainly for some entertainment and communication. 

I don't understand what cloud computing is supposed to accomplish, if robots are supposed to replace human labour but the humans displaced are supposed to control the robots why not just have humans do the job? What are we actually accomplishing if we are taking the pride and enjoyment of a job well done ad putting ourselves into a cubical to babysit and maintain machines? We are not the masters if we spend our lives chasing, troubleshooting and maintaining machines. 

My opinion :) 

I actually don't disagree with much of what you have posted, but please keep in mind my statements were forward looking over the next 70-80 years. They weren't really referencing what today's world is with respect to technology disrupting our lives. Voice assistants still are close to useless, although the real only disruptor that has had a significant affect on all of our lives, whether or not people know, is cloud computing. Any organization that has IT in it is affected, and cloud computing runs most of what we use on a day to day basis, whether or not that'd be Netflix, Xbox Live/Playstation cloud or whatever it's called, online banking etc. But yet still, this is in the infancy of affecting our lives.

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