Argus Posted May 9, 2018 Report Share Posted May 9, 2018 A few items and articles have provoked thought of late about the deliberate division of people into separate identity groups that politicians and social activists are busily engaged in. For politicians it's a way to win votes by tailoring legislation and policies to specific identity groups and sub-identity group members. For the social justice activists, who are inspired by Marxist anti-Capitalist ideology its the division of the world into oppressor and oppressed so they can harangue the former while exploiting the latter. If we're all divided into separate 'tribes' now, then tribal behaviour will follow. We are, as a species, hard wired into tribalism after all. If the politicians and media and academics keep separating us into our separate groups, then those groups become tribes. The white tribe, the black tribe, the native tribe, the muslim tribe and the christian tribe, the asian tribe and the the gay tribe among others. The problem is that these tribes are not treated equally. In fact, one is constantly singled out for abuse and attack. That being the white one. And that produces an obvious sense of resentment we can see rising in the form of populism and far right political parties, particularly in Europe where such tribalist separation is more advanced than here (though Trudeau is fighting desperately to catch up). Political tribalism and identity group tribalism are dividing America in the same way. At its core, the problem is simple but fundamental. While black Americans, Asian Americans, Hispanic Americans, Jewish Americans, and many others are allowed – indeed, encouraged – to feel solidarity and take pride in their racial or ethnic identity, white Americans have for the last several decades been told they must never, ever do so. People want to see their own tribe as exceptional, as something to be deeply proud of; that’s what the tribal instinct is all about. For decades now, nonwhites in the United States have been encouraged to indulge their tribal instincts in just this way, but, at least publicly, American whites have not. On the contrary, if anything, they have been told that their white identity is something no one should take pride in. “I get it,” says Christian Lander, creator of the popular satirical blog Stuff White People Like, “as a straight white male, I’m the worst thing on Earth.” ... Or consider this blog post in the American Conservative, worth quoting at length because of the light it sheds: I’m a white guy. I’m a well-educated intellectual who enjoys small arthouse movies, coffeehouses and classic blues. If you didn’t know any better, you’d probably mistake me for a lefty urban hipster. And yet. I find some of the alt-right stuff exerts a pull even on me. Even though I’m smart and informed enough to see through it. It’s seductive because I am not a person with any power or privilege, and yet I am constantly bombarded with messages telling me that I’m a cancer, I’m a problem, everything is my fault. I am very lower middle class. I’ve never owned a new car, and do my own home repairs as much as I can to save money. I cut my own grass, wash my own dishes, buy my clothes from Walmart. I have no clue how I will ever be able to retire. But oh, brother, to hear the media tell it, I am just drowning in unearned power and privilege, and America will be a much brighter, more loving, more peaceful nation when I finally just keel over and die. Trust me: After all that, some of the alt-right stuff feels like a warm, soothing bath. A “safe space,” if you will. I recoil from the uglier stuff, but some of it— the “hey, white guys are actually okay, you know! Be proud of yourself, white man!” stuff is really VERY seductive, and it is only with some intellectual effort that I can resist the pull … If it’s a struggle for someone like me to resist the pull, I imagine it’s probably impossible for someone with less education or cultural exposure. https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/mar/01/how-americas-identity-politics-went-from-inclusion-to-division 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted May 10, 2018 Report Share Posted May 10, 2018 Should have called this thread Right Pride. Quote I am very lower middle class. I’ve never owned a new car, and do my own home repairs as much as I can to save money. I cut my own grass, wash my own dishes, buy my clothes from Walmart. I have no clue how I will ever be able to retire. But oh, brother, to hear the media tell it, I am just drowning in unearned power and privilege, Its not the media that caused conservatives to identify with and insinuate themselves into the tiny number of wealthy powerful influential people that people in power always gather around themselves - conservatives chose to be the useful obsequious idiots they've become. Quote and America will be a much brighter, more loving, more peaceful nation when I finally just keel over and die. One would hope. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BubberMiley Posted May 10, 2018 Report Share Posted May 10, 2018 Quote I am constantly bombarded with messages telling me that I’m a cancer, I’m a problem, everything is my fault. As a white guy, I don't get this. If something were constantly bombarding us, you'd think I could think of an example. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonam Posted May 11, 2018 Report Share Posted May 11, 2018 12 hours ago, BubberMiley said: As a white guy, I don't get this. If something were constantly bombarding us, you'd think I could think of an example. Pretty sure the only way you could insulate yourself from the messaging referred to in the OP would be to live in the deep south of the US and watch nothing but fox news. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted May 11, 2018 Report Share Posted May 11, 2018 (edited) The messaging in the OP is a gross generalization, as "tribes" in the United States are delineated far more ways than just "race". Many "white" tribes are routinely celebrated at the local and state level, if only for the added economic activity (e.g. festivals, parades, state/county fairs, fraternal organizations, etc.). Even "non-white" tribes are not a monolithic group within the same "race". Edited May 11, 2018 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted May 11, 2018 Report Share Posted May 11, 2018 9 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said: The messaging in the OP is a gross generalization, as "tribes" in the United States are delineated far more ways than just "race". Many "white" tribes are routinely celebrated at the local and state level, if only for the added economic activity (e.g. festivals, parades, state/county fairs, fraternal organizations, etc.). Even "non-white" tribes are not a monolithic group within the same "race". Very astute. My tribe on the web are the thoughtful posters, left and right, who make me consider my perspective. And your tribes intersect along the lines of your background, your economic activities, your geography and even your interests. Hunters, Bikers, Pride Day revellers, Birders and Musicians all have a strong bond that crosses 'racial' lines and is more related to identity and human spirit than anything else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dialamah Posted May 11, 2018 Report Share Posted May 11, 2018 1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said: Very astute. My tribe on the web are the thoughtful posters, left and right, who make me consider my perspective. And your tribes intersect along the lines of your background, your economic activities, your geography and even your interests. Hunters, Bikers, Pride Day revellers, Birders and Musicians all have a strong bond that crosses 'racial' lines and is more related to identity and human spirit than anything else. If so, then people can also belong to more than one tribe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted May 11, 2018 Report Share Posted May 11, 2018 (edited) 24 minutes ago, dialamah said: If so, then people can also belong to more than one tribe. That is what I meant by intersect. Edited May 11, 2018 by Michael Hardner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BubberMiley Posted May 11, 2018 Report Share Posted May 11, 2018 18 hours ago, Bonam said: Pretty sure the only way you could insulate yourself from the messaging referred to in the OP would be to live in the deep south of the US and watch nothing but fox news. Do you have an example? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted May 12, 2018 Author Report Share Posted May 12, 2018 On 5/11/2018 at 7:20 AM, Michael Hardner said: Very astute. My tribe on the web are the thoughtful posters, left and right, who make me consider my perspective. And your tribes intersect along the lines of your background, your economic activities, your geography and even your interests. Hunters, Bikers, Pride Day revellers, Birders and Musicians all have a strong bond that crosses 'racial' lines and is more related to identity and human spirit than anything else. But we're talking about political tribes, tribes the government and agencies divide people into for the purpose of advancing the interest of one over another in job hiring, promotions, laws, government grants, preferential treatment at schools and universities, etc. We're not talking about bloody birders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted May 12, 2018 Report Share Posted May 12, 2018 1 hour ago, Argus said: But we're talking about political tribes, tribes the government and agencies divide people into for the purpose of advancing the interest of one over another in job hiring, promotions, laws, government grants, preferential treatment at schools and universities, etc. We're not talking about bloody birders. I guess you don't know Birders, Bikers, Burners or Bums ? Those are pretty strong bonds there. But YES, the government and advertising tends to tag you and identify you to advance their purposes. I would like us to re-identify a group of people who can discuss ideas, bring wisdom to those discussions and negotiate trade-offs and ways forward. I am starting to think that the current brand of shit intellectuals like Peterson is the first wave of this attack, destined to be mowed down by metaphorical musket fire like any charging force. Yes, that's a good thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted May 12, 2018 Report Share Posted May 12, 2018 1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said: I guess you don't know Birders, Bikers, Burners or Bums ? Those are pretty strong bonds there. But YES, the government and advertising tends to tag you and identify you to advance their purposes. I would like us to re-identify a group of people who can discuss ideas, bring wisdom to those discussions and negotiate trade-offs and ways forward. I am starting to think that the current brand of shit intellectuals like Peterson is the first wave of this attack, destined to be mowed down by metaphorical musket fire like any charging force. Yes, that's a good thing. Peterson is a shit intellectual? Only stupid ignorant people say that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted May 12, 2018 Report Share Posted May 12, 2018 3 hours ago, GostHacked said: Peterson is a shit intellectual? Only stupid ignorant people say that. I criticize his ideas. But feel free to insult me... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted May 12, 2018 Author Report Share Posted May 12, 2018 (edited) 20 hours ago, Michael Hardner said: I criticize his ideas. But feel free to insult me... Well, you called him a 'shit intellectual'. I don't think that's criticizing ideas. And when you criticize someone in such a fashion you are by inference sneering at/ dismissing those who have read/watched/listened to him and agree with him on a number of issues. That's unlikely to get you much favorable intellectual discussion in return. Edited May 13, 2018 by Argus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted May 12, 2018 Report Share Posted May 12, 2018 46 minutes ago, Argus said: I don't think that's criticizing ideas. Sorry you are right. I have discussed them elsewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted May 14, 2018 Report Share Posted May 14, 2018 On 5/12/2018 at 5:07 PM, Argus said: Well, you called him a 'shit intellectual'. I don't think that's criticizing ideas. And when you criticize someone in such a fashion you are by inference sneering at/ dismissing those who have read/watched/listened to him and agree with him on a number of issues. That's unlikely to get you much favorable intellectual discussion in return. Yeah I could not have said that better myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted May 14, 2018 Report Share Posted May 14, 2018 49 minutes ago, GostHacked said: Yeah I could not have said that better myself. His ideas are facile, and often just casual observations that are not new, nor are they informed. People who are attracted to these ideas seem to be attracted to the novelty of hearing an erudite academic mouth them, rather than the usual type of reprobate. As such, he's not an academic worthy of much consideration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted May 14, 2018 Report Share Posted May 14, 2018 57 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said: His ideas are facile, and often just casual observations that are not new, nor are they informed. People who are attracted to these ideas seem to be attracted to the novelty of hearing an erudite academic mouth them, rather than the usual type of reprobate. As such, he's not an academic worthy of much consideration. I get it, you dislike Peterson because he is speaking some truths that no one wants to hear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted May 14, 2018 Author Report Share Posted May 14, 2018 1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said: His ideas are facile, and often just casual observations that are not new, nor are they informed. People who are attracted to these ideas seem to be attracted to the novelty of hearing an erudite academic mouth them, rather than the usual type of reprobate. As such, he's not an academic worthy of much consideration. So which of his ideas do you dismiss as wrongheaded? You sneer your contempt at him every time his name arises, but I have yet to see you show that anything he's postulated is wrong. Yet here again you sneer out of the side of your mouth that the things he's saying are usually only mouthed by 'reprobates'. Such as what? I have yet to see anything about him from from you that was anything more substantive then personal insults. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted May 14, 2018 Report Share Posted May 14, 2018 46 minutes ago, GostHacked said: I get it, you dislike Peterson because he is speaking some truths that no one wants to hear. No. You seem to keep missing the part where I say I supported him earlier on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted May 14, 2018 Report Share Posted May 14, 2018 9 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said: No. You seem to keep missing the part where I say I supported him earlier on. I did miss it, but each post after seems to indicate otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted May 14, 2018 Report Share Posted May 14, 2018 16 minutes ago, Argus said: 1) So which of his ideas do you dismiss as wrongheaded? 1) Which of Oprah's ideas would you say are 'wrong-headed' ? It's not that they're incorrect, it's that it's just a long plaint. I wouldn't even expect a cite for his claims, it's all emotional stuff... "Women want - deeply - men who are competent and powerful..." What exactly are we supposed to do with this ? It is just an emotional salve for a certain type of person, not provable or disprovable... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted May 14, 2018 Report Share Posted May 14, 2018 2 minutes ago, GostHacked said: I did miss it, but each post after seems to indicate otherwise. I stopped supporting him after he aligned himself with the fake news industry... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted May 14, 2018 Report Share Posted May 14, 2018 Just now, Michael Hardner said: I stopped supporting him after he aligned himself with the fake news industry... But ...... 14 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said: No. You seem to keep missing the part where I say I supported him earlier on. So which is it? Pick a stance and run with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted May 14, 2018 Report Share Posted May 14, 2018 14 minutes ago, GostHacked said: So which is it? Pick a stance and run with it. "I stopped supporting him after he aligned himself with the fake news industry..." I supported him earlier on, then I stopped. What is unclear in that ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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