Doug Ford - leader of Ontario PCs

[Argus]

19 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

 1) Moving the goalpost.  "Taxes damage the economy" vs. "High taxes aren't good"

And the difference is what, exactly?  Some taxes are necessary, as I made fully clear. But every tax damages the economy. The higher the taxes, the more damage to the economy, and as a consequence, the more unemployment.

19 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

 2) It's a culture thing, again. 

Political parties do have cultures, and in the face of nonsensical promises from leaders that's about all you have to go on.

[Michael Hardner]

13 minutes ago, Argus said:

1)  Some taxes are necessary, as I made fully clear. But every tax damages the economy.  

2) Political parties do have cultures, and in the face of nonsensical promises from leaders that's about all you have to go on.

1) A certain level of taxation helps the economy.  There is a sweet spot.  

2) Agree that it's a good guess to go on past history and culture.

 

[Argus]

Just now, Michael Hardner said:

1) A certain level of taxation helps the economy.  There is a sweet spot.  

Basic taxes for infrastructure certainly help the economy. Hard to have a decent economy without roads, highways, bridges, airports, trains and seaports, for example. And we clearly need schools in order to educate young people to participate in a technological job market. These are just some examples. So yes, there is a sweet spot. The problem is that parties will rarely ever campaign on reducing social programs. Instead they want to always campaign on increasing social programs. Clearly then, we have a problem. Because under that system social programs, which require taxes, can only ever grow larger and more expensive.

Just now, Michael Hardner said:

2) Agree that it's a good guess to go on past history and culture.

If we, the people, responded with a towering rage whenever politicians lied to us they would stop lying to us. But Dalton McGuinty's lies were as absolutely fundamental to his campaign as any politician in any campaign I can recall, and he still won re-election with a majority. Thus the citizens of Ontario green lighted politicians to just buy their votes. When Tim Hudak said he would lay off tens of thousands of bureaucrats the population reacted with horror and re-elected the thoroughly incompetent Liberals. Clearly the citizens want to be lied to and told rosy stories. Thus that's all they get and all they deserve.

[Michael Hardner]

4 minutes ago, Argus said:

1) So yes, there is a sweet spot. The problem is that parties will rarely ever campaign on reducing social programs.  

2)   Thus the citizens of Ontario green lighted politicians to just buy their votes. When Tim Hudak said he would lay off tens of thousands of bureaucrats the population reacted with horror and re-elected the thoroughly incompetent Liberals. Clearly the citizens want to be lied to and told rosy stories. Thus that's all they get and all they deserve.

1) I think we mostly agree.

2) I mostly agree with some caveats:  this isn't a universal truth as the Federal Liberals were pushed to balance budgets in the 2000s; and also if the public is broken we need to fix the public not work around them.  I vow to help you fix the public.

[Argus]

1 minute ago, Michael Hardner said:

1) I think we mostly agree.

2) I mostly agree with some caveats:  this isn't a universal truth as the Federal Liberals were pushed to balance budgets in the 2000s; and also if the public is broken we need to fix the public not work around them.  I vow to help you fix the public.

A lot of people give the Chretien government credit for addressing the budget deficit. As if they were brave to do so. But to my mind their actions happened with the freedom of no real political challenge due to the split between Reform and PCs. The moment those parties joined together the Liberals turned the spending taps on again.

[Michael Hardner]

14 minutes ago, Argus said:

A lot of people give the Chretien government credit for addressing the budget deficit. As if they were brave to do so. But to my mind their actions happened with the freedom of no real political challenge due to the split between Reform and PCs. The moment those parties joined together the Liberals turned the spending taps on again.

I feel you missed by wording, ie they were 'pushed' to.  By Reform.

[eyeball]

11 hours ago, Argus said:

So yes, there is a sweet spot. The problem is that parties will rarely ever campaign on reducing social programs. Instead they want to always campaign on increasing social programs. Clearly then, we have a problem. Because under that system social programs, which require taxes, can only ever grow larger and more expensive.

If there's a demonstrable reason to reduce social programs because those problems are going away lets hear it.  Some one else will have to ask Argus for this because he's incapable of  dealing with me directly. 

10 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

1) I think we mostly agree.

I'd say a far worse problem exists when parties endlessly campaign on increasing the war on crime in the face of falling crime rates - a problem that's demonstrably going away in other words. This means these parties need to find a problem to solve. This means fabricating fear and encouraging loathing, blowing isolated cases out of proportion into something that could threaten you and your community at any moment.  Purposely marginalizing different segments of society.  I can't help but wonder how many of the growing social problems we're faced are being exacerbated if not directly related to the means being employed towards such a stupid end.

When do these parties simply start dreaming up new crimes that require funding to fight?   We've seen where this can lead with the military-industrial complex. 

Edited May 30, 2018 by eyeball

[Michael Hardner]

4 hours ago, eyeball said:

When do these parties simply start dreaming up new crimes that require funding to fight?     

When we have a better, and true 'public' that can discuss real problems the parties will pay attention to those problems.  

[capricorn]

Looking for a Ford "gotcha" issue in the final campaign days.

Quote

Doug Ford won’t say whether he’ll march in Toronto’s annual Pride parade if he’s elected Ontario premier, prompting his rivals to question the Tory leader’s support of the LGBTQ community.

https://globalnews.ca/news/4247906/doug-ford-torontos-annual-pride-parade/

[Argus]

59 minutes ago, capricorn said:

Looking for a Ford "gotcha" issue in the final campaign days.

https://globalnews.ca/news/4247906/doug-ford-torontos-annual-pride-parade/

I would guess that the PC share of the gay vote is probably hovering near zero anyway.

[capricorn]

Quote

A PC candidate in Scarborough who is being investigated by Toronto police for allegedly making a written threat against a community member says the email containing the threat is fabricated.  

Toronto police launched a professional standards investigation Monday into an email allegedly sent by Roshan Nallaratnam, a Toronto police officer who is running as a PC candidate in the riding of Scarborough-Guildwood.

The investigation comes after the NDP released a partially redacted email from May 30, allegedly written by Nallaratnam, in which he uses an expletive to refer to a community member and threatens that he will “teach the lesson” after the election.

...

But in a statement released Monday afternoon, the candidate denied writing the message.

“I did not send the email in question. The email is a fabrication from an account that does not belong to me,” Nallaratnam said in the statement.

He said he has not been contacted by Toronto police about the matter so far.

Responding to questions from reporters Monday, PC Leader Doug Ford said he is standing by Nallaratnam.

“I talked to Roshan. He says it’s a fabricated email,” Ford said. “Again, this is the NDP getting desperate and we support our police officers, unlike the NDP that say disparaging things about our police officers.”

https://www.cp24.com/news/officer-running-for-pcs-in-scarborough-denies-he-sent-threatening-email-1.3958378

There is no time for a probe to be completed before the vote. At this stage of the game, the voters in that riding will decide who is more credible.

[angrypenguin]

48 minutes ago, capricorn said:

https://www.cp24.com/news/officer-running-for-pcs-in-scarborough-denies-he-sent-threatening-email-1.3958378

There is no time for a probe to be completed before the vote. At this stage of the game, the voters in that riding will decide who is more credible.

Plus at this point no one cares. PC faithfuls will continue to vote PCs. The ONLY people from the Liberals/NDP that will vote PC have decided the economy is more important to them than petty politics.

[H10]

So, Doug ford, follows in PC style after Patrick Brown and steps on his own d*ck with just 3 days to go!

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/pc-leader-doug-ford-faces-233138029.html

[betsy]

6 hours ago, H10 said:

So, Doug ford, follows in PC style after Patrick Brown and steps on his own d*ck with just 3 days to go!

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/pc-leader-doug-ford-faces-233138029.html

How can it be Doug's fault if someone files a lawsuit 3 days before the election?    

 

It's that kind of mentality that encourages extortionists! Anyone can extort a politician by simply making threats!  An allegation can kill a career - we know that!  Look at MeToo!  A politician is likely to pay up whether he's innocent or not, to save his career. 

 

Now, why would Doug Ford not simply pay up if the allegations are true?  That he refuses to, could also mean that.........

...........he's a man of principles. 

 

Of course, we don't know the details.

 

 

 

Quote

The allegations, none of which have been proven in court, come just three days before the Ontario provincial election, which sees Doug Ford's Progressive Conservatives in a neck-and-neck race against the New Democrats.

"Renata's lawyers have been clear to us throughout this campaign, that either we hand over money, or they would go public with these false claims, and that is exactly what they have done, with three days to go until the election," a statement issued by Doug Ford said. 

 

A statement sent by a PC Party spokesperson on behalf of Diane Ford, mother of the Ford brothers, says "it is heartbreaking that Renata has chosen to bring forward these false and baseless allegations against our family, right in the middle of a provincial election campaign."

"Renata has serious struggles with addiction, and our hope is that she will accept help for the sake of herself and my grandchildren."

 

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/pc-leader-doug-ford-faces-233138029.html

 

 

But it makes me question why file a lawsuit now........3 days before the election?   Why wait until now? 

 

I read the edition of Global News.  It edited the statement of Doug's mother.  It didn't mention the part about the widow's struggle with drug addiction.  That information is crucial.  I suspect Global News to be biased.

https://globalnews.ca/news/4252483/renata-ford-estate-lawsuit-doug-ford-randy-ford/

 

 

 

Here is a piece from the Ottawa Citizen.

 

Quote

 

Renata Ford has a substance-abuse problem and is making up stories to harm Doug Ford’s campaign, say statements the Progressive Conservatives issued in the names of the leader and his mother, Diane Ford.

“These claims relating to Deco are completely false and we will strongly refute them in court,” Doug Ford’s statement said. “Renata’s lawyers have been clear to us throughout this campaign, that either we hand over money, or they would go public with these false claims, and that is exactly what they have done, with three days to go until the election.”

“It is heartbreaking that Renata has chosen to bring forward these false and baseless allegations against our family, right in the middle of the provincial election campaign,” said the statement from Diane Ford. “As a family, our one goal is to ensure Rob’s children are cared for and their financial futures are secure. Renata has serious struggles with addiction, and our hope is that she will accept help for the sake of herself and my grandchildren.”

 

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/national/reevely-doug-ford-sued-by-brothers-widow-accused-of-siphoning-inheritance

 

 

 

Edited June 5, 2018 by betsy

[capricorn]

How come Renata Ford was not named trustee of Rob Ford's estate? Don't couples who have faith in each other normally name each other trustee in the event of the death of the other?

[PIK]

My understanding is Doug looks after robs family very generously and robs wife has known addictions,that she would probably blow all the money in a very quick time. He is protecting her from herself.That has already been out in the media.

Edited June 5, 2018 by PIK

[Michael Hardner]

3 minutes ago, PIK said:

My understanding is Doug looks after robs family very generously and robs wife has known addictions,that she would probably blow all the money in a very quick time. He is protecting her from herself.That has already been out in the media.

Ah.  Your understanding is different from hers then ?  I don't actually think the lawsuit is material, in that there's no new information.  The circus will, however, continue.  

Here's some background on Deco:

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/toronto/doug-ford-at-deco/article21067584/

http://nationalpost.com/posted-toronto/ford-family-business-a-nightmare-since-doug-handed-managerial-control-to-randy-ex-employees-say
 

Quote

Deco Labels and Tags, the firm that made the Fords their considerable fortune, was thrust into the spotlight again Wednesday after reports emerged that Mayor Rob Ford and Councillor Doug Ford had used their influence at city hall to arrange meetings for a key Deco business partner....
For all the focus on the Fords over the past four years, the inner workings of the company that made them rich have remained relatively obscure.

On Wednesday, four former Deco employees filled in some of that gap. 
...
Deco, they said, was well run under Doug Ford. But after the 2010 election, when he stepped away from day-to-day management, it descended into something between managerial gridlock and absolute chaos under the leadership of Randy Ford, Doug and Rob’s brother.

The basic inability to prioritize, organize and set up a plan is something that should raise alarm bells here.  But it doesn't matter as Doug is a done deal for premier.  Enjoy your one term, Doug.

[betsy]

2 hours ago, capricorn said:

How come Renata Ford was not named trustee of Rob Ford's estate?

Good question.

[betsy]

21 minutes ago, PIK said:

My understanding is Doug looks after robs family very generously and robs wife has known addictions,that she would probably blow all the money in a very quick time. He is protecting her from herself.That has already been out in the media.

Let me just say again....

 

Doug Ford had stood by his brother even during the crack scandal  (even to the detriment of his own reputation) - I can't believe he'll be screwing up Rob's children.    More like he's trying to protect their interest (if their mother indeed has drug addiction issues).

Edited June 5, 2018 by betsy

[capricorn]

12 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Here's some background on Deco:

The basic inability to prioritize, organize and set up a plan is something that should raise alarm bells here.

I doubt the average voter will research information on Deco. In any case, the financial state of Deco as reported in the MSM and the pending lawsuit won't make a difference in the final outcome of the vote.

[betsy]

 

Quote

 

Mainstreet poll: Ontario PC Party on pace to win majority government

The poll comes less than one day after news broke that Renata Ford, the widow of Doug Ford’s brother, former Toronto mayor Rob Ford, launched a lawsuit against the Ontario PC leader. The suit alleges that Doug Ford and his brother Randy Ford mismanaged family assets and Rob Ford’s estate, a claim the PC leader denies.

 

 

https://www.cp24.com/news/mainstreet-poll-ontario-pc-party-on-pace-to-win-majority-government-1.3959626

 

 

People are so tired of dirty politics - and the timing of this lawsuit is an eye-roller!  I don't think anything will stick at this point.

 

.....but, we won't be complacent.    get active in social media, and counter.

Edited June 5, 2018 by betsy

[angrypenguin]

A lot of you clearly have not gone through any legal action and/or a divorce which is the closest form of legal action that many of us have gone through.

An allegation is just that - words that have not been proven in a court of law. I can say a bunch of crap about you but it doesn't mean anything until a court has agreed to it. Relax.

[angrypenguin]

16 minutes ago, betsy said:

 

 

https://www.cp24.com/news/mainstreet-poll-ontario-pc-party-on-pace-to-win-majority-government-1.3959626

 

 

People are so tired of dirty politics - and the timing of this lawsuit is an eye-roller!  I don't think anything will stick at this point.

2 days to go. Let's not count our eggs hatching yet.

[Michael Hardner]

20 minutes ago, angrypenguin said:

An allegation is just that - words that have not been proven in a court of law. I can say a bunch of crap about you but it doesn't mean anything until a court has agreed to it. Relax.

It means that the plaintiff asserts that it's true.  It is unproven but not meaningless.

[angrypenguin]

7 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

It means that the plaintiff asserts that it's true.  It is unproven but not meaningless.

And if you've gone through enough court documents you will find that a plaintiff's beliefs often is not in line with how the case plays out.