Crime in Canada seems to align with natives

[Rue]

5 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. Go ahead.   I never deny your centrist position, and your authority on many issues - even when you go off on me.

2. Agreed.  He shouldn't, though, portray himself as having any high ground on this unless he can lead the public into a substantive and deep dialogue.  Those two adjectives do not describe anything about younger Trudeau though.  

 

Appreciated.. In fact I commend your civility in all seriousness on these boards.

 

Edited December 9, 2018 by Rue

[turningrite]

3 minutes ago, eyeball said:

No that's not true at all, many would just as soon see sovereignty and the British eff off back wherever they came from.

Yes it is ultimately counter-productive but then isn't that just as ultimately true of sovereignty? And what is there other than forced assimilation by the strongest sovereign?  I doubt a reserve system for non-indigenous peoples would work but why not?  

In any case some of us, just a tiny few at the moment, are laying claim to the pale blue dot we all live on and there will come a day when all you nations will have to adjust accordingly.  It was us Earthlings after all, who were here first.

Huh?

[Rue]

1 hour ago, eyeball said:

 

I suppose Rue will soon be back vomiting up references to Marx, Trudeau and...I'm surprised Carl Sagan hasn't been added to the list of monsters he invokes in the name of justifying the existence of funny little tribes and their nations. 

 

Good one.

Edited December 9, 2018 by Rue

[turningrite]

1 hour ago, eyeball said:

I suppose Rue will soon be back vomiting up references to Marx, Trudeau and...I'm surprised Carl Sagan hasn't been added to the list of monsters he invokes in the name of justifying the existence of funny little tribes and their nations. 

Marx remains an intellectual giant of the modern era. Even if social and economic experiments attributed to his inspiration have ended in failure, his analytical framework remains both influential and crucial. Some of its more recent variations, like neo-Marxian identitarianism, are in my opinion intellectually superfluous. But we shouldn't dismiss Marx just because some have opportunistically corrupted his ideas. As for your reference to Trudeau, which one are you talking about? Surely not Justin? I don't associate him with any intellectually important thinkers or leaders.

Edited December 9, 2018 by turningrite

[eyeball]

13 minutes ago, turningrite said:

Huh?

Said the guy who suggests we think outside the box. 

[turningrite]

1 minute ago, eyeball said:

Said the guy who suggests we think outside the box. 

When you write about blue dots and earthlings perhaps you should consider that others won't necessarily take you seriously. If you have a coherent point to make, please do so.

[eyeball]

6 minutes ago, turningrite said:

When you write about blue dots and earthlings perhaps you should consider that others won't necessarily take you seriously. If you have a coherent point to make, please do so.

Yes its a strange new world outside the box and sometimes you just have to locate and discern the points yourself.  I'm not here to hold your hand and I have no illusions whatsoever about what you're saying.

Is it really that hard to grok what I'm talking about?  Put a little more effort into it.

Edited December 9, 2018 by eyeball

[cannuck]

1 hour ago, turningrite said:

Marx remains an intellectual giant of the modern era. Even if social and economic experiments attributed to his inspiration have ended in failure, his analytical framework remains both influential and crucial. Some of its more recent variations, like neo-Marxian identitarianism, are in my opinion intellectually superfluous. But we shouldn't dismiss Marx just because some have opportunistically corrupted his ideas. As for your reference to Trudeau, which one are you talking about? Surely not Justin? I don't associate him with any intellectually important thinkers or leaders.

Yes, Marx was a gifted economist, but had very poor grasp of human nature.   Not unusual in an idealist - who expects other idealists to share at least some of his ideals - such as integrity.   There simply hasn't been a Marxist system that actually worked as he envisioned since people are so greedy and corrupt they do what greedy, corrupt people with extreme amounts of power from the privilege of office will do.

Yes, Trudeau Sr. was fairly bright, but extremely communist (i.e. screwed up mentally).  Yes, you can be smart but in the wrong direction.  Trudeau Jr. I don't think has the intellectual gift to even be a good WalMart greeter - but I wish he would pursue that opportunity.

[Argus]

10 hours ago, Centerpiece said:

Argus - you're entirely right of course. If you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you've always gotten. The reserve system - no matter how it was created - has become a system of self-apartheid. Only the brain-dead could refuse to acknowledge that living on a remote reserve with no aspirations. no jobs and no hope is nothing more than enprisoning a community.

Unfortunately, you're wrong. A lot of the Chiefs would argue that, because their power and privilege and wealth derives from being the leader of that community. And a lot of the Left would argue that moving a community or combining a community, or bringing a community in closer to urban centres full of non-natives would threaten their culture. The problem is their culture, such as it is, is not a substitute for a thriving economy. And without jobs people have no purpose in their lives. What good does your culture do then? Gonna wear a cultural headdress and costume while you shoot up?

Trying the kind of major reform of the band system would be as much of a shitstorm as reforming health care or the justice system. Which is why politicians won't do it. They operate in four year increments. They have no interest in starting a project which won't bear rewards and accolades within that four year period. They most especially have no interest in starting a program which will be expensive, lead to turmoil, upheaval and much bad publicity and which won't bear fruit until AFTER the next election.

 

PS. by the way, Rue, we don't send people to federal prison for minor crimes. Sure most of what natives do is minor, just like for everyone else. But the number of natives in federal prison indicates much of that crime is considerably more severe.

 

 

Edited December 10, 2018 by Argus

[eyeball]

17 hours ago, Argus said:

Trying the kind of major reform of the band system would be as much of a shitstorm as reforming health care or the justice system. Which is why politicians won't do it. They operate in four year increments. They have no interest in starting a project which won't bear rewards and accolades within that four year period. They most especially have no interest in starting a program which will be expensive, lead to turmoil, upheaval and much bad publicity and which won't bear fruit until AFTER the next election.

This is why the justice system is the route native people follow.  I have little doubt Argus' reformation of our justice system would cut that route off.

[Hates politicians]

On 3/10/2018 at 10:35 PM, ?Impact said:

Native Canadians do pay taxes, including those who live in first Nation communities.  It is only status Indians who live and work on reserve that have tax exemptions, that is a small percentage of native Canadians.

Bottom line no more tax free. Pay taxes the same as whitey has to do. No more welfare or all the free housing etc. Get a job. If there is no work where your living you move the same as the next person has to do. S for the courts same justice as whitey. Equal crime equals equal time behind bars.as for gangs they know who they are round them up and send them to the gas chamber. That means every color.

[turningrite]

21 hours ago, cannuck said:

Yes, Marx was a gifted economist, but had very poor grasp of human nature.   Not unusual in an idealist - who expects other idealists to share at least some of his ideals - such as integrity.   There simply hasn't been a Marxist system that actually worked as he envisioned since people are so greedy and corrupt they do what greedy, corrupt people with extreme amounts of power from the privilege of office will do.

Yes, Trudeau Sr. was fairly bright, but extremely communist (i.e. screwed up mentally).  Yes, you can be smart but in the wrong direction.  Trudeau Jr. I don't think has the intellectual gift to even be a good WalMart greeter - but I wish he would pursue that opportunity.

I think one has to separate Marx's analytical framework, which has been highly influential for several generations and remains so today, from his speculative solutions to the problems generated by what he viewed as monopoly capitalism. You are correct that he underestimated the inherent greed of human beings. More importantly, he didn't appear to comprehend that all forms of economic monopoly, whether under private or state control, can be and usually are inherently problematic.

I'm not at all sure Trudeau Sr. was a communist. Although a statist or interventionist where public policy was concerned, I think he was a bit of an intellectual dilettante on economic policy and wasn't overtly ideological. I've read that he admitted that he didn't really comprehend economics, which if true was a pretty objective assessment of his own limitations. It's helpful to remember that federal inheritance, death and gift taxes were abolished under his regime, in 1971, moves certainly inconsistent with a socialist or communist perspective. 

[taxme]

On 3/10/2018 at 8:01 PM, ?Impact said:

ergo, Donald Trump

Is that all Canadians like you can think about is Trump-Trump-Trump? Trump is worth billions. What are you worth? You probably cannot even rub two toonies together. No doubt because Trudeau-Trudeau-Trudeau took your two toonies away from you and blew them on himself. Ha-ha-ha. 

[taxme]

On 12/9/2018 at 6:29 AM, Michael Hardner said:

Rue you seems to have an understanding of the issue.  To my mind, the answer is both simple and impossible:

1. Canadians need to wake up and prioritize what is happening with our first peoples

2. We need to give them power over their own decisions and assistance to improve.

Politics makes these things very difficult.  

1. So just what is happening with our first nations people that Canadians need to wake up about?  

2. We have given them power and what has it got us? More whining and crying about how hard they are still being done by. They have been collecting billions in tax dollars from the taxpayer's of Canada for so bloody long now and they are still broke. Every Indian should be a millionaire by now. I know that I would probably be a millionaire by now also if the government gave me the same amount of money that these ungrateful Indians have been receiving for all these bloody years. The first thing to do here is to stop giving them any more money. They do not deserve any more tax dollars. Let them stay stay seated or get off the pot or the other pot.  

It's politics alright. Politics called political correctness and screwing old whitey as usual. 

[taxme]

24 minutes ago, taxme said:

Is that all Canadians like you can think about is Trump-Trump-Trump? Trump is worth billions. What are you worth? You probably cannot even rub two toonies together. No doubt because Trudeau-Trudeau-Trudeau took your two toonies away from you and blew them on himself. Ha-ha-ha. 

Hey BC, it's bloody sad to see that all these Canadians can do in their life is try to blame everything on Trump when they are the ones who should be blaming themselves for their weaknesses in life. If all they have left to do in their life is to Trump bash than it's no wonder that Canada is in bad shape as it is and in big trouble. 

[PIK]

Lets not forget the 1st nations back then, was many nations hell bent on killing the other ones. And really they are not the 1st and it is time to change. This cannot continue on, some hard choices will have to be made to get rid of the chiefs and councils that have ruined it. Whitey is bad but the natives treatment of women is sad. And this inquiry they keep screaming about, enough and end it. Because they will not be happy until a study comes out blaming whitey for all those poor women that have been killed . ( by their own)

[Rue]

22 hours ago, cannuck said:

Yes, Marx was a gifted economist, 

 

No he wasn't. He was an elitist. He never worked a day I  his life. Unless you know what it is like to worry about how you make ends meet, economics is an abstraction that Won't be understood. Sometimes you really do have to get hemmeroids to understand how painful it can be sitting on your pampered ass.

Edited December 10, 2018 by Rue

[cannuck]

3 hours ago, turningrite said:

I'm not at all sure Trudeau Sr. was a communist. Although a statist or interventionist where public policy was concerned, I think he was a bit of an intellectual dilettante on economic policy and wasn't overtly ideological. I've read that he admitted that he didn't really comprehend economics, which if true was a pretty objective assessment of his own limitations. It's helpful to remember that federal inheritance, death and gift taxes were abolished under his regime, in 1971, moves certainly inconsistent with a socialist or communist perspective. 

He carried a Communist Party card while he studied at the Sorbonne.   Let's just leave it at security background checks while he was an elected politician note "walking trips in Eastern Europe" at that time as well.

Trudeau suffered from the same disease as Marx - silver spoon syndrome.  Since he was raised within and largely by the Catholic cult, he was no doubt pretty screwed up and accustomed to living the lie.  I don't doubt he did a lot of things to Canadians and Canada with the best of intentions (in his screwed up mind) but always with the safety net of never having to wonder where HIS next meal (or Mercedes) was coming from.

[cannuck]

2 hours ago, Rue said:

No he wasn't. He was an elitist. He never worked a day I  his life. Unless you know what it is like to worry about how you make ends meet, economics is an abstraction that Won't be understood. Sometimes you really do have to get hemmeroids to understand how painful it can be sitting on your pampered ass.

I agree with your assessment, but not that he wasn't very bright.  He understood some things about economics that manage to evade many today, even with the advantage of hindsight.

[turningrite]

4 hours ago, cannuck said:

He carried a Communist Party card while he studied at the Sorbonne.   Let's just leave it at security background checks while he was an elected politician note "walking trips in Eastern Europe" at that time as well.

Trudeau suffered from the same disease as Marx - silver spoon syndrome.  Since he was raised within and largely by the Catholic cult, he was no doubt pretty screwed up and accustomed to living the lie.  I don't doubt he did a lot of things to Canadians and Canada with the best of intentions (in his screwed up mind) but always with the safety net of never having to wonder where HIS next meal (or Mercedes) was coming from.

What people believe politically when they're young is often not indicative of their later political attitudes and affiliations. A few decades ago I considered myself to be what would now be called a "progressive" but my views changed over time. My siblings and I have discussed the fact that we've all become more conservative as we've aged.

[cannuck]

7 hours ago, turningrite said:

What people believe politically when they're young is often not indicative of their later political attitudes and affiliations. A few decades ago I considered myself to be what would now be called a "progressive" but my views changed over time. My siblings and I have discussed the fact that we've all become more conservative as we've aged.

I couldn't agree more.  EVERYONE starts life as a socialist, because they are totally dependent and ignorant.  However, some (and I include PET among this lot) stayed true to his extremely left leanings to the bitter end.  Noting his love of cuddling up to Castro and other youth heroes but more to the point delivering the soft underbelly of the USA to Russia in the form of a border where the military was turned from a military ally to the US to a social service experiment, the anti-nuke protest groups had a welcome home (the focus of the cold war) and who knows how many other efforts to undermine the US were launched.  He maintained some of those personal and military friendships from "walking trips in Eastern Europe" well into his years as PM.

Edited December 11, 2018 by cannuck

[turningrite]

7 hours ago, cannuck said:

 However, some (and I include PET among this lot) stayed true to his extremely left leanings to the bitter end.  Noting his love of cuddling up to Castro and other youth heroes but more to the point delivering the soft underbelly of the USA to Russia in the form of a border where the military was turned from a military ally to the US to a social service experiment, the anti-nuke protest groups had a welcome home (the focus of the cold war) and who knows how many other efforts to undermine the US were launched.  He maintained some of those personal and military friendships from "walking trips in Eastern Europe" well into his years as PM.

I'm not convinced of your interpretation of P.E. Trudeau. As I said earlier, I think he was more a dilettante than an ideologue where economic policy was concerned. And he did make sure to end federal inheritance, estate and gift taxes, which was surely a gift to his own offspring as well as to others in his socio-economic class (i.e. the wealthy). His rhetoric and antics often appeared to be leftist but his regimes were at times quite amenable to accommodating the interests of the wealthy. It might well be said that the Lib tactic of campaigning from the left (i.e buying votes with taxpayers' money) and governing from the right started under P.E.T., although the tactic didn't achieve full bloom until the Chretien-Martin crew was installed and has continued under Trudeau the Lesser.

[cannuck]

1 hour ago, turningrite said:

I'm not convinced of your interpretation of P.E. Trudeau. As I said earlier, I think he was more a dilettante than an ideologue where economic policy was concerned. And he did make sure to end federal inheritance, estate and gift taxes, which was surely a gift to his own offspring as well as to others in his socio-economic class (i.e. the wealthy). His rhetoric and antics often appeared to be leftist but his regimes were at times quite amenable to accommodating the interests of the wealthy. It might well be said that the Lib tactic of campaigning from the left (i.e buying votes with taxpayers' money) and governing from the right started under P.E.T., although the tactic didn't achieve full bloom until the Chretien-Martin crew was installed and has continued under Trudeau the Lesser.

Trudeau definitely gave handouts to the silver spoon crowd willy nilly (such as R&D tax credit scheme that paid out far more in credits than the supposed - and pretty much unaudited - project capital costs), but his left side was meant for the plebians to suffer.  For instance: going half way there with the CDC (Canadian Development Corp) but right off the deep end embracing all that Karl Marx stood for with Petro Canada - genuine nationalization of private industry that would make even Tommy the Commy (Douglas, of course) blush.

[Rue]

17 hours ago, turningrite said:

What people believe politically when they're young is often not indicative of their later political attitudes and affiliations. A few decades ago I considered myself to be what would now be called a "progressive" but my views changed over time. My siblings and I have discussed the fact that we've all become more conservative as we've aged.

We of course have a mellowing of reactions to perceptions with age. . what the phack do I know,  for what it is worth I would describe you as a moderate or centre kind of person if  I must label you which I would not. I find your pros balanced. 

That said I just don't see our federal government as the solution to what ails aboriginals. Then again I am not aboriginal and ultimately I believe only they can alleviate what ails them.

 

 

Edited December 11, 2018 by Rue

[Hates politicians]

On 3/10/2018 at 10:49 AM, Argus said:

Where are the highest crime areas of Canada? You might think Toronto, Vancouver, Montreal? Nope. The highest crime area in Canada is North Battleford, Saskatchewan, followed by Thompson Manitoba. After that it's Prince Albert, Sask, and then Williams Lake, BC. If you switch to just violent crime the areas change around but it's the same areas, followed by Portage la Prairie, Manitoba, and Yorkton, Saskatchewan. Why, you might ask, do these places have the highest crime rates in Canada? Well, the four western provinces have  the highest proportion of 'first nations' in Canada. Except for Ontario, that is... So why aren't Ontario towns and cities the highest? Perhaps because Ontario has a lower percentage of natives living on reserves. Still, you'll notice most of the higher crime areas for Ontario are in the north. It seems difficult to get crime statistics based on race, though Canada does keep them for aborigines. But it prefers to talk about victimization rates or incarceration rates rather than out and out saying, well, natives commit a lot of crime. For example, you can find statements like In Saskatchewan, the adult Aboriginal incarceration rate is over 1,600 per 100,000, compared to 48 per 100,000 for adult non-Aboriginals fairly readily in stats Canada sites, but no crime stats. You can find headlines that say Aboriginal people make up 5 percent of Canada's population but nearly a quarter of its murder victims easily enough, and other stories lamenting the number of female natives murdered (along with a glorious commission). The only time the press will talk about native crime is to lament how many natives are being incarcerated. These are from stats Canada. Again, it's on incarceration, not crime rates.

While Aboriginal people make up about 4% of the Canadian population, as of February 2013, 23.2% of the federal inmate population is Aboriginal (First Nation, Métis or Inuit).  There are approximately 3,400 Aboriginal offenders in federal penitentiaries, approximately 71% are First Nation, 24% Métis and 5% Inuit.

In 2010-11, Canada’s overall incarceration rate was 140 per 100,000 adults.  The incarceration rate for Aboriginal adults in Canada is estimated to be 10 times higher than the incarceration rate of non-Aboriginal adults.

The over-representation of Aboriginal people in Canada’s correctional system continued to grow in the last decade.  Since 2000-01, the federal Aboriginal inmate population has increased by 56.2%.  Their overall representation rate in the inmate population has increased from 17.0% in 2000-01 to 23.2% today. 

Since 2005-06, there has been a 43.5% increase in the federal Aboriginal inmate population, compared to a 9.6% increase in non-Aboriginal inmates. 

So the questions are why is there so much native crime, why is it rising, and what can be done about it? Clearly what's BEEN done is not working. That includes all the special judicial changes to incorporate healing lodges and restorative justice. The problem is societal. And it relates to the hopelessness and the lack of any purpose in their lives for people on reserves.

 

http://www.oci-bec.gc.ca/cnt/rpt/oth-aut/oth-aut20121022info-eng.aspx

http://www.macleans.ca/canadas-most-dangerous-places/

So if you delete color from the story your saying that prisons are over represented by criminals in comparison to innocents.