Stanley verdict not to be appealed

[dialamah]

3 hours ago, PIK said:

Time for the natives to join the country. We have tried to let them keep the old ways

You mean confining them on reserves-literally requiring a pass to leave, outlawing potlatches, renaming them with European names, putting their kids in residential schools so they could be "Christianized", imposed "Band Councils", forbade them speaking their language, practice their religion or wear their traditional dress, among other things.   

Yeah, we sure bent over backwards to "let them keep the old ways".

[Centerpiece]

17 hours ago, dialamah said:

Yeah, we sure bent over backwards to "let them keep the old ways".

Stop the victimhood. If indiginous peoples went back to the "old ways", chances are pretty good that our 600 "nations" would revert to fighting among themselves - and demonstrate the "racist" attitudes that they insist are so prevalent today. Before the arrival of Europeans, Indian wars were commonplace - and Native American peoples all across North America had their own customs for dealing with captives. Depending on the cultural region, captives could be killed, kept alive and assimilated into the tribe, or enslaved.

Keep that in mind when judging history by today's moral "standards".

[PIK]

17 hours ago, dialamah said:

You mean confining them on reserves-literally requiring a pass to leave, outlawing potlatches, renaming them with European names, putting their kids in residential schools so they could be "Christianized", imposed "Band Councils", forbade them speaking their language, practice their religion or wear their traditional dress, among other things.   

Yeah, we sure bent over backwards to "let them keep the old ways".

A Lot of natives do not want to leave the traditional lands as they call it. But the big problem is, they can't do it unless whitey is there to take care of them. Ever watch ice roads, if that show has any truth to it ,it proves me right. They are screwed unless society does not send them supplies. I thought the native was a sustainable person, does not need the white man to survive. So many native people suffer  because of it.

[cannuck]

On 3/12/2018 at 10:33 PM, Rex Havoc said:

Treaties clearly say it's our land and newcomers are our tennents. What applies to you under the Charter doesn't always apply to me.

Provinces are irrelevant to us.

Land is the surface, not the mineral rights.

Charter DOES alway apply to you, but some idiots think they can give one class of Canadians "extra special rights" not available to others.  It might work in the short term with political correctness dominating Ottawa thinking but in the end it will fail.  There is simply no way that having multiple "sovereign nations" within one nation is workable or sustainable.

Treaties are irrelevant to us.

[dialamah]

29 minutes ago, Centerpiece said:

Stop the victimhood. If indiginous peoples went back to the "old ways", chances are pretty good that our 600 "nations" would revert to fighting among themselves - and demonstrate the "racist" attitudes that they insist are so prevalent today. Before the arrival of Europeans, Indian wars were commonplace - and Native American peoples all across North America had their own customs for dealing with captives. Depending on the cultural region, captives could be killed, kept alive and assimilated into the tribe, or enslaved.

Keep that in mind when judging history by today's moral "standards".

Oh, you must be one of those "take personal responsibility" conservatives ... Unless of course it means taking responsibility for admitting Canada's past shitty behavior.  "Moral stamdards" of the time may be reason not to entirely condemn those who thought residential schools were a good idea, or removing kids from their parents almost automatically.  But making their way of life essentially illegal, from religion to dress, and forcing them on to certain parcels of land and requiring a "pass" to leave that area?   That is pure oppression and racism.  The Natives were victimized, and some of those policies were in place till the 50s and 60s.  Expecting them to recover in a single generation and "join" the rest of Canada, while still fighting stereotypes and discrimination is completely stupid.

 

[dialamah]

30 minutes ago, PIK said:

A Lot of natives do not want to leave the traditional lands as they call it. But the big problem is, they can't do it unless whitey is there to take care of them. Ever watch ice roads, if that show has any truth to it ,it proves me right. They are screwed unless society does not send them supplies. I thought the native was a sustainable person, does not need the white man to survive. So many native people suffer  because of it.

Perhaps if "whitey" hadn't made their way of life easentially illegal and stuck them on the least desirable parcels of land, they would have been "sustainable".  How about I tell you and your family to never leave your property unless I give you a piece of paper saying you have permission, tell you Christianity is now illegal and no more Chriatmasses or Easters for you?  But here's some cash; c'mon now, prove to me how successful you can be, while I and my friends slap you down at every opportunity.

 

PS:  Gonna change all your names too.

 

Edited March 14, 2018 by dialamah

[Accountability Now]

25 minutes ago, dialamah said:

  That is pure oppression and racism.  The Natives were victimized, and some of those policies were in place till the 50s and 60s.  Expecting them to recover in a single generation and "join" the rest of Canada, while still fighting stereotypes and discrimination is completely stupid.

 

I agree with this but what do you suggest is the way forward? in my mind the only suggestions brought forth by the Indigenous are continued segregation and separation from the rest of Canada. I would love to see a solution that actually is progressive and solves the problem rather than perpetuates it. 

[cannuck]

2 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Perhaps if "whitey" hadn't made their way of life easentially illegal and stuck them on the least desirable parcels of land, they would have been "sustainable".  How about I tell you and your family to never leave your property unless I give you a piece of paper saying you have permission, tell you Christianity is now illegal and no more Chriatmasses or Easters for you?  But here's some cash; c'mon now, prove to me how successful you can be.

You are living in the past.  There is nothing, nor has been for  generations forcing anyone to stay on reserve.   One thing I can tell you:  give me the amount of unaccountable money it takes to sustain someone living hundreds or thousands of kms away from the bulk of the population and transportation links, and I would not be a success, I would be nothing but a welfare case - just like any other ward of the state or any government employee or institution.  Business in general and entrepreneurs in particular simply don't work that way.

Since you raise the point though, let me share some experiences.

About 40 years ago I was enroute from my home in the Thompson to Winnipeg.  When I landed for fuel in Norway House, the power was off so I couldn't get gas.  While waiting, the Manitoba Hydro guys had chartered the Aztek based there to go to another community that also had no power.   I was asked to ride right seat, so climbed aboard for the trip.  On the way the Hydro guys told me the story:  they pay a staff of people to monitor the diesel genset that powers that community but none of those paid to do so ever bother to actually do ANYTHING such as read the fuel or oil levels or top them off.  They just radio out to tell Hydro when the power goes out.  When we landed I was told to stay and guard the airplane - otherwise the avgas would be drained from every tank before we got back, and it would not be safe for me to be there, as they only needed the Hydro guys to get power on, not me for any reason.

Almost 20 years ago we (JV) built a portable (skid) sub station and supplied a power transformer for one of the Ontario reserves North of Red Lake (up in Treaty 5 country).  The purpose was to tap into the nearby transmission lines so this community and two nearby could have much cheaper and more reliable line power instead of off grid diesel gensets.  When we arrived with the transformer, it had to be placed off reserve.  When I asked why I was told that if it was on one reserve, they would turn the power off to the next one down the line when tribal disputes or just a lost hockey game could get them wound up.  We placed, assembled, filled and tested the transformer and left it until the substation skid was delivered.  For nearly a year we did not get paid for the sub.  When we investigated, the excuse was that the power was not coming down the line.  When we investigated further, we found that the transformer and substation had been vandalized to the point where they were both beyond salvageable.  Five hours up an ice road, do you think "whitey" drove up there to do that?   Yeah, he drove up there and spent millions to give the aboriginal reserve grid power, but the respect shown for that effort was to dodge paying the bill....all the while you can believe the Chief and Council were quite contentedly driving around their shiny new Cadillac (actually Expeditions then), living in their free home, and taking air taxi out to collect their per diems for endless meetings about nothing.  Almost two decades later, that reserve still is not on the grid.

Welcome to one small slice of reality.

[Centerpiece]

58 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Oh, you must be one of those "take personal responsibility" conservatives ... Unless of course it means taking responsibility for admitting Canada's past shitty behavior.  "Moral stamdards" of the time may be reason not to entirely condemn those who thought residential schools were a good idea, or removing kids from their parents almost automatically.  But making their way of life essentially illegal, from religion to dress, and forcing them on to certain parcels of land and requiring a "pass" to leave that area?   That is pure oppression and racism.  The Natives were victimized, and some of those policies were in place till the 50s and 60s.  Expecting them to recover in a single generation and "join" the rest of Canada, while still fighting stereotypes and discrimination is completely stupid.

 

Just sayin........assimilation (or killing and slavery) was good enough for pre-European Native Americans as they fought among themselves. The dominant tribes were only too happy to side with the French or British to continue their battles. The argument that if we just left them alone they'd all be happy little troopers is ludicrous. The term Warrior didn't evolve from planting corn. As I said - don't judge history through today's moral "standards". Although there are still residential survivors (SOME who actually benefitted from that time) , we're not talking about a single generation. The vast majority of First Nations people have been born after 1970, comprising more than almost three generations who had no knowledge of the Residential School System. Stop the victimhood and find your own path to joining the rest of us - we're not all white. Pick a colour - you'll find it. If people escaping war-torn countries and discrimination can find their way - often starting from nothing.......why can't our own indiginous brothers and sisters so the same? The path is there - it needs people willing to take the necessary steps - and leadership that wants to finally start to make things better.

Edited March 14, 2018 by Centerpiece

[PIK]

3 hours ago, Accountability Now said:

I agree with this but what do you suggest is the way forward? in my mind the only suggestions brought forth by the Indigenous are continued segregation and separation from the rest of Canada. I would love to see a solution that actually is progressive and solves the problem rather than perpetuates it. 

Natives can live wherever they want and a lot do. And the ones that got away and lived the canadian life, I will bet are a lot happier then the ones that stayed. And how about native women. And how they are treated as 2nd class citizens by their own people. Like I said Natives better get with the program and forget this living the traditional way, because they can't live that way anymore. You can no longer blame whitey for anything now. Whitey has forked over billions and the native still live in poverty while the chiesf drives around in a caddey. And can the regular native vote for these chiefs and councils, because my understanding is they cant.

Edited March 14, 2018 by PIK

[Accountability Now]

25 minutes ago, PIK said:

Natives can live wherever they want and a lot do. And the ones that got away and lived the canadian life, I will bet are a lot happier then the ones that stayed. 

I know a number of natives who have left the reserves and became really successful. There is no doubt the vast majority would have the same capabilities if they did too however the reserves seem to be like quicksand that keep sucking people back in even when there is little to no hope.  The issue again seems to be the system of segregation that continues to draw them into staying on reserve. Ironically it was the white man's segregation that put them there and its their own segregation that keeps them there. 

 Its very much an 'us versus them' mentality with the whole time hearing about how Canada is screwing them over. But here is the kicker....they are CANADA. They have the ability to join the rest of us and have the same so called benefits that we have but choose to stay on reserve for their treaty rights and so called benefits to be had there. I don't get it but I am not in that situation so its maybe not fair to judge. I just get tired of hearing the same rhetoric with no way forward.

[dialamah]

5 hours ago, Accountability Now said:

I agree with this but what do you suggest is the way forward? in my mind the only suggestions brought forth by the Indigenous are continued segregation and separation from the rest of Canada. I would love to see a solution that actually is progressive and solves the problem rather than perpetuates it. 

I agree that continued segregation is not an answer and I don't know that its widely supported by Natives either.   I support paying for schooling for Native youth as a first step towards autonomy from government support, but I am no expert on the challenges of allowing Natives to choose their own path while supporting that fairly and reasonably.  I do agree, in general terms, that being self sufficient and engaging fully with the larger Canadian society is important for any minority group, even while retaining important cultural themes.  First Nations culture has much to offer all Canadians, if we were open to learning about it.

[Argus]

16 minutes ago, dialamah said:

  First Nations culture has much to offer all Canadians, if we were open to learning about it.

Like what?

[Accountability Now]

2 minutes ago, dialamah said:

I support paying for schooling for Native youth as a first step towards autonomy from government support, 

Don't they already get that? The few natives I know that went to school not only had it fully paid for but also got grants to start businesses afterward. 

5 minutes ago, dialamah said:

 I do agree, in general terms, that being self sufficient and engaging fully with the larger Canadian society is important for any minority group, even while retaining important cultural themes.  

I truly feel that the solution(s) to these issues needs to be driven by the aboriginal community but not in the way that they have been going. This constant 'us versus them' thing keeps the proverbial wheels spinning in the mud.  They need to think outside the box and get away from the divisive strategies. 

15 minutes ago, dialamah said:

 First Nations culture has much to offer all Canadians, if we were open to learning about it.

I agree but in current times the roadblock happens when the 'us versus them' situation happens. I feel the same way about Quebec....I love Montreal and the French Canadian culture in general but I immediately get turned off when the divisive nature comes out

[dialamah]

9 minutes ago, Argus said:

Like what?

My mistake, I ought to have excepted those who only see value in white skin and Western capitilism.   

[GostHacked]

24 minutes ago, dialamah said:

My mistake, I ought to have excepted those who only see value in white skin and Western capitilism.   

Interesting that a question was asked, but you went in this direction.

[Hal 9000]

45 minutes ago, Argus said:

Like what?

I think you stumped her with that doozy.

[dialamah]

19 minutes ago, Accountability Now said:

Don't they already get that? The few natives I know that went to school not only had it fully paid for but also got grants to start businesses afterward. 

 

Perhaps though I thought the money came from the band council. 

I think we more or less agree with what you have said.  Certainly the drive for change has to come from within First Nations, but I think we are seeing that already.  The "us vs them" attitude isn't entirely one-sided; look at the poster who sneers at the very idea that FN culture has anything of value to offer or the repeated sentiment - so what if we oppressed them, that's been kind of over now for 60 years, they should be all caught up now.

[dialamah]

16 minutes ago, GostHacked said:

Interesting that a question was asked, but you went in this direction.

Yes, it is interesting.  Why might that be, do you suppose?  Do you think Argus really cares what FN folk might believe or have to offer?   

If someone who wasn't constantly sh*tting on non-whites were to ask, I would have answers.  

[Accountability Now]

1 minute ago, dialamah said:

look at the poster who sneers at the very idea that FN culture has anything of value to offer or the repeated sentiment

Yes...lots of frustration on both sides. That's why it would be great to actually have some solutions that would give both sides some encouragement. Yet the majority of the solutions from the First Nations is the 'Us versus Them' and the majority from the ROC is to turn a blind eye. Neither one of these works. 

[Argus]

1 hour ago, GostHacked said:

Interesting that a question was asked, but you went in this direction.

I knew that she was only making lefty mouth noises and actually knew nothing whatever about native culture and what it might have to offer. Lefties all admire native culture, even though they don't have a clue what it is. LOL

Edited March 14, 2018 by Argus

[Argus]

51 minutes ago, dialamah said:

  The "us vs them" attitude isn't entirely one-sided; look at the poster who sneers at the very idea that FN culture has anything of value to offer

I didn't sneer. I asked you what. You revealed that you had no clue and were just engaged in moral posturing by trotting out trite progressive phrases.

Edited March 14, 2018 by Argus

[GostHacked]

34 minutes ago, Argus said:

I knew that she was only making lefty mouth noises and actually knew nothing whatever about native culture and what it might have to offer. Lefties all admire native culture, even though they don't have a clue what it is. LOL

I like some aspects of aboriginal culture. However overall I think that the culture is preserved by less and less as time goes on. I like the ceremonies, the lore, and in some cases, the music. However much of what we've been taught about aboriginals in school (well when I was in school) could be wrong for the most part. It's a shame what the government has done in terms of the residential schools and the breaking up of families, ect ect and it's also a shame on how the government treated that whole bit with some measly compensation for those affected.

Also how the government is treating this missing and murdered indigenous people bit is quite lame in my view.

1 hour ago, dialamah said:

Yes, it is interesting.  Why might that be, do you suppose?  Do you think Argus really cares what FN folk might believe or have to offer?   

If someone who wasn't constantly sh*tting on non-whites were to ask, I would have answers.  

I believe your stance is unfounded when it comes to Argus. That is coming from someone who's views are mainly on the other side of what Argus puts out. However I don't really see the shitting on non-whites that you are talking about.

[cannuck]

2 hours ago, dialamah said:

I agree that continued segregation is not an answer and I don't know that its widely supported by Natives either.   I support paying for schooling for Native youth as a first step towards autonomy from government support, but I am no expert on the challenges of allowing Natives to choose their own path while supporting that fairly and reasonably.  I do agree, in general terms, that being self sufficient and engaging fully with the larger Canadian society is important for any minority group, even while retaining important cultural themes.  First Nations culture has much to offer all Canadians, if we were open to learning about it.

I think you heart is in the right place, you just need to get your mind to catch up with reality.

Yes, the culture that ONCE defined First Nations did have a great deal to offer the world.   To survive as hunter-gathering peoples (and I can only speak for plains and subarctic tribes) there was a need and a defacto society that was not self-reliant, but co-reliant.  Families took care of any children who were around.  There was no idea of individual property, everyone simply shared what was available (which is why we have so much trouble in our property-centric society in understanding why what we determine to be theft would simply have been tolerated as "he must have needed it").  In my younger years I would spend months in the bush with aboriginal friends and customers who still clung to those ancient values.  Tolerance was one of the absolute #1 factors.  To earn respect, you had to be true to your word, respectful and helpful to your neighbour and community and most of all, be able to laugh at yourself and not take things too seriously.

The creation of reserves and granting of treaty rights were meant to allow this society and culture to be physically capable of surviving as such.   Segregation WAS part of the white conquerer's natural and normal racist tendencies, but it was with some good intention and reason that things were organized to allow the aboriginal faction to survive without having to integrate.

That is NOT what current leaders are trying to accomplish.   Listen to what is being said.  They are looking for economic benefits and advantages to be able to have a genuine western capitalist pig lifestyle but without the need to go out and make the sacrifices, do the work and take the risks that the rest of the world must do.  This new and very different culture of the "1st nations" uses the kind of top down, entitled, dictatorial kind of government that is surprisingly similar in charactaristics and flaws to those in sub-Saharan Africa.

If you want another Nigeria/Somalia/Uganda/Zimbabwe/etc. within our borders, just continue following the mindless path of pacification and pandering that the politically correct bozos from BOTH of the leading national parties, and that is exactly what we will get.

[dialamah]

3 hours ago, GostHacked said:

I believe your stance is unfounded when it comes to Argus. That is coming from someone who's views are mainly on the other side of what Argus puts out.

I've already read about his opinion on the culture of Natives prior to the arrival of Europeans.   He sees absolutely no value in Native culture and it would be a pointless exercise to even attempt to explain the value others might see.

Quote

However I don't really see the shitting on non-whites that you are talking about.

I understand that plenty of people see absolutely no problem with stereotyping and dismissing entire populations based on their own preconceived notions. 

Edited March 15, 2018 by dialamah