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Stanley verdict not to be appealed


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2 minutes ago, dialamah said:

I've already read about his opinion on the culture of Natives prior to the arrival of Europeans.   He sees absolutely no value in Native culture and it would be a pointless exercise to even attempt to explain the value others might see.

I understand that plenty of people see absolutely no problem with stereotyping and dismissing entire populations based on their own preconceived notions. 

I see that sometimes too.  I don't let it get to me though.

BTW, that link you provided doesn't seem to be right.

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3 hours ago, cannuck said:

I think you heart is in the right place, you just need to get your mind to catch up with reality.

Yes, the culture that ONCE defined First Nations did have a great deal to offer the world.   To survive as hunter-gathering peoples (and I can only speak for plains and subarctic tribes) there was a need and a defacto society that was not self-reliant, but co-reliant.  Families took care of any children who were around.  There was no idea of individual property, everyone simply shared what was available (which is why we have so much trouble in our property-centric society in understanding why what we determine to be theft would simply have been tolerated as "he must have needed it").  In my younger years I would spend months in the bush with aboriginal friends and customers who still clung to those ancient values.  Tolerance was one of the absolute #1 factors.  To earn respect, you had to be true to your word, respectful and helpful to your neighbour and community and most of all, be able to laugh at yourself and not take things too seriously.

Nicely said.   I also like the idea of being connected with the earth, nature, the universe, the spirit world and that connectedness required respect for both one's ancestors and those who would come after you.   

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The creation of reserves and granting of treaty rights were meant to allow this society and culture to be physically capable of surviving as such.   Segregation WAS part of the white conquerer's natural and normal racist tendencies, but it was with some good intention and reason that things were organized to allow the aboriginal faction to survive without having to integrate.

In my opinion it was one of those 'good intentions with unintended consequences', eh?  I'm not going to vilify the people who made those decisions, because no doubt they were generally well-motivated.  At the same time, those unintended consequences resulted in the near-destruction of a great many people and I don't think it's wrong to admit that.  We can't change the past, and we all have to 'get over it',  but for the people whose entire culture revolved around the connections they had with each other, nature, their ancestors and their descendants, to have that all ripped away could only have been devastating.   Some people simply don't want to see that; they seem to think that this is some kind of non-event, a bunch of whiners who are overstating what they experienced.   Yet, some of the same people have an absolute meltdown if a woman wears a scarf on her head because "they're destroying Canadian culture".   Imagine if the much feared Muslim invasion actually happened and they were forced to dress differently, believe differently, live where they were told?   How hard can it be to practice some empathy and understand their greatest fear actually happened to these people and was visited on them by ... us?

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That is NOT what current leaders are trying to accomplish.   Listen to what is being said.  They are looking for economic benefits and advantages to be able to have a genuine western capitalist pig lifestyle but without the need to go out and make the sacrifices, do the work and take the risks that the rest of the world must do.  This new and very different culture of the "1st nations" uses the kind of top down, entitled, dictatorial kind of government that is surprisingly similar in charactaristics and flaws to those in sub-Saharan Africa.

I am trying to listen.  And realistically a 'capitalist pig lifestyle' is what they'll need to have if they have any hope of being successful in this particular country.  But I am not persuaded that that is the only thing they want; I have mentioned my niece-in-law who is going to school so that she can have a decent job and (Western) lifestyle.   She also seems to place great value on her family/tribe, their traditions and beliefs and ultimately she wants to be part of her band's leadership; this does not seem like someone who wants everything handed to her on a silver platter, with no thought of anything but her own personal well being.  No doubt what you say is true of some natives, though; I'm not assuming all believe the same.  Much of my information does come from a friend who works with treaty negotiations; she has spent countless hours among them for a couple of decades and her impression of their goals is much different than what you describe.  I have also had some limited contact with reconciliation at my job, and again what you describe is not the impression I am left with.   And I'd like to emphasize again:  I'm not unaware of the problems, nor do I believe that just being Native makes you above reproach or criticism.   I prefer to keep criticisms to those who deserve it, rather than spread it among people who may or may not share the same views merely because they share an ethnicity.   

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If you want another Nigeria/Somalia/Uganda/Zimbabwe/etc. within our borders, just continue following the mindless path of pacification and pandering that the politically correct bozos from BOTH of the leading national parties, and that is exactly what we will get.

Pacification and pandering?  Those sounds like buzzwords found on right-wing radio talk shows.   I hesitate to make assumptions about what you may mean by that, so perhaps you could offer specific examples so any response I may make will be sure to address what you are talking about.  :)

Edited by dialamah
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Just reading the book "The White and the Gold" by Thomas B. Costain.  It is the history of the establishment of the French regime in Canada mainly in the 1600s.  It is quite a story of the great founders, settlers, governors, explorers and fur traders who first settled in New France (Quebec).  I will say right off the top their struggles and wars with the Iroquois were ongoing and brutal at times.  The Iroquois were a very large warrior tribe, sometimes called the Five Nations because they fought also with the other tribes and absorbed them into the Iroquois.  You were either on their side or you had to be eliminated.  There was no middle ground.  They wiped out the Huron so they no longer existed as an Indian nation.  The Iroquois tried to destroy the French but were not successful in that endeavour.  The French built fortresses in a number of places such as Quebec (city), Montreal, and other places.  Other neighbouring tribes either joined the Iroquois and became warriors or they were wiped out.  The Jesuit missionaries went out to various other tribes to convert them to Roman Catholicism and did manage to convert quite a number.  Many of them were killed by natives.  Some were tied to the stake and tortured many hours before they finally died.  This was the fate of many natives and Frenchmen that the Iroquois captured.  At times the brutality was returned by the French to the Iroquois and wars were fought.  There were a number of great heroes and explorers among the French who came to New France.  King Louis XIV was heavily involved with his minister in France to fund and oversee the settlement of New France.  They sent out a number of soldiers to help defend the settlements from the Iroquois as well as sending out the King's girls in groups of 50 or 100 at a time to provide wives for the settlers.  There were a lot of rules and regulations on how everything was to be done.  It was a grueling existence for many.

Edited by blackbird
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4 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Sometimes I learn stuff, believe it or not.

Yeah, and sometimes the music thread is pretty good, but other than that, it's just the fun of arguing without risking a punch.

Maybe that's a point, who knows.

I don't ever want to know how many books I could have read though.

I am curious about what you found wrong with my genuine attempt to help you out with a dodgy link.

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32 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

Yeah, and sometimes the music thread is pretty good, but other than that, it's just the fun of arguing without risking a punch.

Maybe that's a point, who knows.

I don't ever want to know how many books I could have read though.

I am curious about what you found wrong with my genuine attempt to help you out with a dodgy link.

What is dodgy about it?  You do have to do some reading, which I know you prefer not, but the info is there.  I could make 4 separate links, but didn't feel like it.  

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Just now, dialamah said:

Yeah, and sometimes the music thread is pretty good, but other than that, it's just the fun of arguing without risking a punch.

I don't really like arguing, prefer finding places to agree even with disagreement.   But I do have opinions and am not very good at letting things lay.

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4 minutes ago, dialamah said:

What is dodgy about it?  You do have to do some reading, which I know you prefer not, but the info is there.  I could make 4 separate links, but didn't feel like it.  

Ah, I see.  I was under the impression one could link directly to the post one wanted to highlight.

I'll take your word for it that it is worthwhile, as you are right about me and reading such things.

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1 minute ago, dialamah said:

I don't really like arguing, prefer finding places to agree even with disagreement.   But I do have opinions and am not very good at letting things lay.

I honestly could not see any reason to come on here or the other place to agree with people.  It can come as a nice surprise when it happens out of the blue, granted, but the fun is in arguing.

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On 13/03/2018 at 11:36 AM, Argus said:

What do you think a 'territorial MP" is anyway? There is no such thing, nor will there ever be. The biggest reserve I'm aware of is the Six Nations, and that's less than 13,000 people. Most are far, far smaller. There are only 10 with populations that are more than 5,000 people.  That's a moderate small town in this country. The average population of a federal riding is about 70,000 people. 

What's you point? Parliament is for everybody but?

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On 13/03/2018 at 11:07 AM, PIK said:

That thinking is why the natives suffer so much, The greed of the chiefs and the bands, we want the country and you pay us to live here is a major problem? Shake your head, because it is not yours.

Who wants money? Is that what you think this is about? You are a very shallow person.

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11 minutes ago, Rex Havoc said:

Read into what a Treaty is.

Already have...many times. Here...I'll quote you from the Treaty 4 text as you claim that is what you fall under:

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The Cree and Saulteaux Tribes of Indians, and all other the Indians inhabiting the district hereinafter described and defined, do hereby cede, release, surrender and yield up to the Government of the Dominion of Canada, for Her Majesty the Queen, and Her successors forever, all their rights, titles and privileges whatsoever, to the lands included within the following limits, that is to say:-

https://www.aadnc-aandc.gc.ca/eng/1100100028689/1100100028690

 

Any more questions?

 

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1 hour ago, Rex Havoc said:

What's you point? Parliament is for everybody but?

My point is there will never be a 'territorial' MP. Not unless you all get together in one big mass and set up a giant reserve, one ten times bigger than any existing today. Natives, be they on reserves or in cities, vote as CANADIANS and are simply one part of the population of any given riding.

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13 hours ago, dialamah said:

I've already read about his opinion on the culture of Natives prior to the arrival of Europeans.   He sees absolutely no value in Native culture and it would be a pointless exercise to even attempt to explain the value others might see.

Oh I see the value paternalistic old white people see in 'native culture'. They watch them in their 'quaint' costumes dancing around and clap their hands and think "Oh, how precious!" and then want them to stay like that forever, living artifacts dedicated to amusing white tourists. And that's all people like you know or care about native culture.

Edited by Argus
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5 hours ago, Rex Havoc said:

Who wants money? Is that what you think this is about? You are a very shallow person.

If all the money given to natives and groups was put into infrastructure yrs ago, thing could be alot better today.But it seems very little of the many billions given disappeared and never made it to the regular people that need it. Do these chiefs think everyone is stupid , that we don't know of the corruption of these so called leaders.

Edited by PIK
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14 minutes ago, PIK said:

If all the money given to natives and groups was put into infrastructure yrs ago, thing could be alot better today.But it seems very little of the many billions given disappeared and never made it to the regular people that need it. Do these chiefs think everyone is stupid , that we don't know of the corruption of these so called leaders.

How do crooked Chiefs impact Indians who have never set foot on a Rez.

Why does everybody think we all live on the Rez?

Stereotypes?

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4 hours ago, Argus said:

My point is there will never be a 'territorial' MP. Not unless you all get together in one big mass and set up a giant reserve, one ten times bigger than any existing today. Natives, be they on reserves or in cities, vote as CANADIANS and are simply one part of the population of any given riding.

Canada is a giant Rez. You don't have property rights.

 

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7 hours ago, Argus said:

Oh I see the value paternalistic old white people see in 'native culture'. They watch them in their 'quaint' costumes dancing around and clap their hands and think "Oh, how precious!" and then want them to stay like that forever, living artifacts dedicated to amusing white tourists. And that's all people like you know or care about native culture.

That isn't how I see them.  However you go right on with your assumptions about everyone, especially those you know SFA about.  Its just too damn scary for you to look at people as individuals; what if they didn't actually fall into your little stereotyped boxes?  Your tiny little mind would blow apart, I suppose.

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3 hours ago, Rex Havoc said:

Canada is a giant Rez. You don't have property rights.

You started out sounding reasonable and now you just sound like an obstinate, pig headed idiot who isn't interested in discussing anything.

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