The second amendment is failing the USA : Another school shooting!

[bush_cheney2004]

4 minutes ago, ?Impact said:

Not true, that got a lot of attention including from Americans when it happened. Unfortunately episodes like Parkland seem to be commonplace in the US.

 

False...."collective forgetting" in Canada:

http://www.canadalandshow.com/visiting-the-quebec-city-mosque-where-six-muslims-were-killed/

[?Impact]

1 minute ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

False...."collective forgetting" in Canada:

True, Canadians shouldn't forget because these are very rare in our country. I guess I understand how Americans can forget what is commonplace.

[bush_cheney2004]

1 minute ago, ?Impact said:

True, Canadians shouldn't forget because these are very rare in our country.

 

Canada likes to forget lots of not so rare things in its history.

[Kerfuffle]

8 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Canada likes to forget lots of not so rare things in its history.

Ian sure  there is....most of it minor but Americans short term memory cant be so bad that mass shootings on average of 1 every day prevents them from making ANY  legistlation to combat a huge problem    hell after Vegas shooting they couldn't even ban bump stocks. Just talking about it does nothing....you need laws...stolen guns are a huge problem that often are used in a crime.....if your weapon was stolen and used in a crime then you do the time for that crime ...you want a gun so you need to be responsible that it does not get in the wrong hands.....lock it up in a secure vault

[bush_cheney2004]

2 minutes ago, Kerfuffle said:

..if your weapon was stolen and used in a crime then you do the time for that crime ...you want a gun so you need to be responsible that it does not get in the wrong hands.....lock it up in a secure vault

 

More gun safes are sold in the U.S. than in Canada, which also has plenty of guns per capita.

[Kerfuffle]

5 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

More gun safes are sold in the U.S. than in Canada, which also has plenty of guns per capita.

Obviously Canada's gun safes are far better quality because as data shows that America has a big problem with stolen guns used in crimes. Or alot more Americans need to buy gun safes....if you can afford a gun then lock it up.

What is the problem then....if Canada has lots of guns per capita but does not come close to Americas gun related homicides per 100,000 people....something is fishy here....

Edited February 16, 2018 by Kerfuffle

[?Impact]

Just now, bush_cheney2004 said:

More gun safes are sold in the U.S. than in Canada, which also has plenty of guns per capita.

I venture to say far more guns are outside safes than in them. Going back to the ATF statistic of 9.79 years from legal acquisition to crime usually involves many steps, this is one scenario that they paint as typical from the hundreds of thousands they investigate annually

1. Buy a gun for a roommate that failed the background check
2. Roommate sells the gun to a friend because she is behind in the rent
3. Friend sold the gun to someone they didn't know to buy drugs
4. The gun is then used in a crime

Of course the gun manufacturers and dealers are happy because they get to sell another gun. They funnel money to the NRA to buy political favors.

 

[Kerfuffle]

I dont think anyone is saying get rid of all guns....but guns that are meant to kill people eg AR 15 need to be banned and strict laws on protecting your legal guns from getting in the wrong hands....these steps would severely reduce your gun homicides.

[?Impact]

It appears the shooter is one of Donald Trump's very fine people. He has an Instagram account with his picture wearing a Make America Great Again hat, and showing off his arsenal and hinting at animal cruelty. The white nationalist group Republic of America says he participated in paramilitary drills, although they are now walking back that statement.

[bush_cheney2004]

A majority of Americans do not own guns, and those that do, own them safely and responsibly without incident over many years.  

No matter how many mass shootings there are in the U.S., gun grabbers and their sycophant wannabes in Canada will never get to take them away.

There would be no America without guns.

 

[Kerfuffle]

2 minutes ago, ?Impact said:

It appears the shooter is one of Donald Trump's very fine people. He has an Instagram account with his picture wearing a Make America Great Again hat, and showing off his arsenal and hinting at animal cruelty. The white nationalist group Republic of America says he participated in paramilitary drills, although they are now walking back that statement.

Well they are saying mental illness is a big problem which fits the Modus operandi  of white supremacist ,right wing extremist , Trump....the mosque shooter was in same frame of mind..

• The suspect is Alexandre Bissonnette, a 27-year-old student at Laval University. Mr. Bissonnette faces six counts of first-degree murder. He was known in the city’s activist circles as a right-wing troll who frequently took anti-foreigner and anti-feminist positions and stood up for U.S. President Donald Trump.

[Kerfuffle]

17 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

A majority of Americans do not own guns, and those that do, own them safely and responsibly without incident over many years.  

No matter how many mass shootings there are in the U.S., gun grabbers and their sycophant wannabes in Canada will never get to take them away.

There would be no America without guns.

 

A majority of Americans do not own guns which means the minority own 350 million guns?, and those that do, own them safely and responsibly without incident over many years so how do you account for the 40,000 gun related deaths a year...does not seam very responsible to me....I dont wanna take your guns away .I can see where that AR 15 would come in handy when you go hunting.......mind you you will probably die of lead poisoning after you filled your game with lead.

 

[bush_cheney2004]

1 hour ago, Kerfuffle said:

A majority of Americans do not own guns which means the minority own 350 million guns?, and those that do, own them safely and responsibly without incident over many years so how do you account for the 40,000 gun related deaths a year..

 

The majority of U.S. gun deaths are suicides:

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/09/upshot/gun-deaths-are-mostly-suicides.html

...same conclusion > mental health is more important than banning guns or magazine size.

 

Quote

I dont wanna take your guns away .I can see where that AR 15 would come in handy when you go hunting.......mind you you will probably die of lead poisoning after you filled your game with lead.

 

I am not worried....you can't even take guns away in Canada.  

We use Canada's infamous Gun Registry fiasco to teach IT project managers how to prevent getting fired.

Edited February 16, 2018 by bush_cheney2004

[Scott Mayers]

7 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

You don't understand....I don't need a gun....I WANT a gun, for lots of purposes.

My country made ownership and bearing arms a constitutional right, and my government taught me how to use all kinds of guns for government purposes as well

So which rights would you so easily give up in Canada ?

Your country had the 2nd Amendment as a counter against Federal-level governments from utilizing laws to remove the means for which its citizens can be able to overthrow it in light of Britain's behavior to submit the power of their colonies by making it illegal for its citizens to police themselves FROM the colonies versus some King's palace a continent away.

The 'STATES' formed to operate bottom-up. As such, the 2nd Amendment was intended to enable State-level governments a right to form localized militias NOT governed by the forces of a Federal-level control, ....especially one not interested in its citizens concerns. The British authorities originally represented the intoleration of the colonies to act independent of British rule. Then later, as States were still being formed, newer ones wanted to be sure they were not territories of a Federal policing that prevented local means of empowerment.

The Amendment EXCUSED by the right-wing politics today in the U.S. are about empowering those WITH present economic wealth as a means to Federal-level controls to make turn it into a war-only mechanism with no social-level interests. To them, while they prefer NO government at all, using the power when in government office is to utilize the various tactics to destroy it from the inside out. One such convenient means they came up with is to make war itself a capitalistic industry which includes weapon-making as the most significant factor. They aren't interested in empowering the individual from totalitarian rule but to PREVENT the 'slave' classes from uprising against themselves. The ones who OWN the war-making-machine BECOME the empowered rulers by the convenient virtue of treating it just as another industry of social improvement. This is a con, not a sincere means to invest in societal well-being. 

[bush_cheney2004]

11 minutes ago, Scott Mayers said:

The Amendment EXCUSED by the right-wing politics today in the U.S. are about empowering those WITH present economic wealth as a means to Federal-level controls to make turn it into a war-only mechanism with no social-level interests. To them, while they prefer NO government at all, using the power when in government office is to utilize the various tactics to destroy it from the inside out. One such convenient means they came up with is to make war itself a capitalistic industry which includes weapon-making as the most significant factor. They aren't interested in empowering the individual from totalitarian rule but to PREVENT the 'slave' classes from uprising against themselves. The ones who OWN the war-making-machine BECOME the empowered rulers by the convenient virtue of treating it just as another industry of social improvement. This is a con, not a sincere means to invest in societal well-being. 

 

Only half right...there were important considerations for individual and states rights far beyond revolution from Great Britain.   Distilled to a basic level, firearms represent power...power for the individual, power for states, and power for the federal government.   The United States was built using such power...guns are part of America's DNA.

The well being of society is an afterthought and product of a nation that used such power to not only survive, but become a global hegemon.

No guns...no America.

Edited February 16, 2018 by bush_cheney2004

[Scott Mayers]

28 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Only half right...there were important considerations for individual and states rights far beyond revolution from Great Britain.   Distilled to a basic level, firearms represent power...power for the individual, power for states, and power for the federal government.   The United States was built using such power...guns are part of America's DNA.

The well being of society is an afterthought and product of a nation that used such power to not only survive, but become a global hegemon.

No guns...no America.

I was adding an edit to this but will do it here now.

Your belief is ONLY a right-wing one of the Americans,....not ALL Americans. 

The specific intent of American 'conservatives' is to destroy democratic rights by taking away the kind of power that the second amendment served. You (and/or conservatives) are intentionally trying to bankrupt ALL governments because they believe that governments should be the right of the fortunate AT PRESENT because they believe that Nature (and/or God) RIGHTFULLY favors them specifically for their strict self interest and LUCK. They PRETEND to be individualistic but only argue this to empower their own already empowered fortunes from being threatened. The interest is NOT to ensure the individual can protect themselves arbitrarily.

It is like a giant who, knowing they have no risk at present for being a giant by default, suggests that no laws are needed to prevent bullying based on physical largeness. They believe that giants are by default 'giant' because the Gods favor them 'rightfully' and so anything they DO is by default, 'right'. 

With guns, they are the gun industry owners AND the ones who HAVE the fortune of the biggest such guns to use against others. So by merely asserting themselves as DEFAULT 'righteous' for BEING in power because of guns and god, they demand society to respect the gun-owner in general as 'righteous' with exception only to the meek and weak. They believe they OWN guns BECAUSE they are most powerful rather than that they are most powerful BECAUSE they own guns. 

This is the very kind of reasoning the Loyalists of Kings argue their 'right' to withhold guns from the original Americans. So it goes against the 2nd Amendment's purpose to empower the people. Today's conservatives are just now the Kings who have confidence that they are not threatened by any individual from having a gun because they hold an arsenal of them without a risk of being overthrown UNLESS some government removes their present fortune as giants.

Edited February 16, 2018 by Scott Mayers

[bush_cheney2004]

1 minute ago, Scott Mayers said:

...This is the very kind of reasoning the Loyalists of Kings argue their 'right' to withhold guns from the original Americans. So it goes against the 2nd Amendment's purpose to empower the people. Today's conservatives are just now the Kings who have confidence that they are not threatened by any individual from having a gun because they hold an arsenal of them without a risk of being overthrown UNLESS some government removes their present fortune as giants.

 

I don't understand this position at all.

My explanation above is based on demonstrated American history to the present day.    The nation was built that way....with guns.

It has nothing to do with my personal politics or right wing ideology.

Remington Arms is actually going bankrupt....

 

[Scott Mayers]

1 minute ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

I don't understand this position at all.

My explanation above is based on demonstrated American history to the present day.    The nation was built that way....with guns.

It has nothing to do with my personal politics or right wing ideology.

Remington Arms is actually going bankrupt....

 

You are incorrect. Why would you merely assume that the United States represents ONLY POWER to rule? The gun is only a tool (as even used to argue by Conservatives). If the U.S. is only justified because they have default power based on some weapon, then the rest of the world REQUIRES destroying them FOR being such a bully. I don't believe this is true personally. This is precisely the beliefs that the extremes outside of America justify going against them. 

But this also PROVES my point about the intent of Conservatives to prefer governments to only serve as war-mechanisms and personal police of their wealthy estates.

[?Impact]

9 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

The nation was built that way....with guns.

Henry Ford, Thomas A. Edison, J.P. Morgan, John D. Rockefeller, Enrico Fermi, Jonas Salk, etc.

They built America - no guns needed

[bush_cheney2004]

3 minutes ago, Scott Mayers said:

You are incorrect. Why would you merely assume that the United States represents ONLY POWER to rule? The gun is only a tool (as even used to argue by Conservatives). If the U.S. is only justified because they have default power based on some weapon, then the rest of the world REQUIRES destroying them FOR being such a bully. I don't believe this is true personally. This is precisely the beliefs that the extremes outside of America justify going against them.

 

History is not incorrect...it is reality.    American power doesn't just cater to Conservatives.

Power means that the U.S. does not require justification, just the will to act, and it has done so for over 200 years.

The U.S. is no stranger to competition...it thrives on it (major difference with Canada).

 

Quote

But this also PROVES my point about the intent of Conservatives to prefer governments to only serve as war-mechanisms and personal police of their wealthy estates.

 

Different topic....American governments regardless of ruling party ideology will feed the U.S. war machine no matter what.  

Eisenhower was right, but he was part of the same machine.  

[bush_cheney2004]

4 minutes ago, ?Impact said:

Henry Ford, Thomas A. Edison, J.P. Morgan, John D. Rockefeller, Enrico Fermi, Jonas Salk, etc.

They built America - no guns needed

 

Sure they did....America expanded across the continent using just light bulbs and Model T cars.

[Scott Mayers]

6 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

History is not incorrect...it is reality.    American power doesn't just cater to Conservatives.

 

Your own interpretation of history is that some 'culture' of guns is what made and maintains America's virtue of existence. Given we are discussing the 2nd Amendment, you falsely interpret it to justify this belief when its purpose was only to PREVENT others with more powerful weapons to use it to enslave the masses, precisely what the Conservative view philosophically endorses uniquely. That is, you managed to flip the intent of that Amendment to prevent authoritarian rule to become a justification FOR authoritarian rule. This makes the Amendment useless for having contradictory interpretations that are both held as valid. Either it needs to be dumped or requires some rewording to specify what its unique intent is. 

[?Impact]

9 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Sure they did....America expanded across the continent using just light bulbs and Model T cars.

yes, and the millions of others like them that farmed, engineered, built, operated, and maintained all that makes America and not the hillbilly second amendment guns that accomplished nothing.

[Scott Mayers]

I have an interesting suggestion for the U.S. to fix this issue. 

The main reason it is hard to remove is because they cannot get all the States to sign a new Amendment to overthrow it, right? BUT, one can argue that IF the 'interpretations' of those States signing one way or the other disagree to the meaning of it with CONTRADICTORY interpretations, this should be justified to overthrow that law for lacking meaning without a need for further signatures. It at least should force them to rewrite it.

[bush_cheney2004]

1 minute ago, Scott Mayers said:

Your own interpretation of history is that some 'culture' of guns is what made and maintains America's virtue of existence. Given we are discussing the 2nd Amendment, you falsely interpret it to justify this belief when its purpose was only to PREVENT others with more powerful weapons to use it to enslave the masses, precisely what the

 

Regardless of the 2nd Amendment, Americans used firearms to establish and expand a nation across an entire continent.   Guns are not justified by the 2nd Amendment....the 2nd Amendment exists because of guns.   The manufacture and possession of firearms didn't lose prominence just because Britain was expelled and loyalists fled to Canada.

Guns are part of American "culture", and have been from the very beginning.  Don't Canadians fall all over themselves to elevate and worship at the alter of "culture" ?