CITIZEN_2015 Posted January 30, 2018 Report Share Posted January 30, 2018 (edited) 27 minutes ago, Goddess said: I don't care if a woman says she "chose" it. I am out of debate Goddess. You are clearly going against a woman's choice of how to dress and feel that likely because you are in the West now somehow you are better and smarter than them to choose for them what is good for them. I cannot accept that. So what are you going to do with those who do?. Are you going to forcefully tear off the hijab off their heads or order law enforcement to arrest them and put them in jail?. Would Canada become same level as Islamic Republic if we elect you as our Prime Minister in future? Edited January 30, 2018 by CITIZEN_2015 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goddess Posted January 30, 2018 Report Share Posted January 30, 2018 (edited) 38 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said: I am out of debate Goddess. Yes, I noticed that because the personal attacks start when people are out of debate: 38 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said: You are clearly going against a woman's choice of how to dress and feel that likely because you are in the West now somehow you are better and smarter than them to choose for them what is good for them. I cannot accept that. So what are you going to do with those who do?. Are you going to forcefully tear off the hijab off their heads or order law enforcement to arrest them and put them in jail?. Would Canada become same level as Islamic Republic if we elect you as our Prime Minister in future? FYI I've always been in the West. And no, I don't feel that I should make their choices because I'm smarter than them. I'm smarter then them because I actually got off my ass and researched my former religion and all it's doctrines and beliefs and then....... MADE AN INFORMED CHOICE. That is all these women need. Information and Education. Withholding the true nature of hijabs and burquas, romanticising and legitimizing the garments is withholding the information they need to also make an informed choice. This information was withheld from them in their former Islam-ruled countries and here, we withhold it from them out of some kind of misplaced pity or whatever. You know what started me researching my former religion? People calling me out on my bullshit choices. If, after researching the history and purpose of the covers a woman THEN chooses to wear it.....I am in total agreement with her choice to wear it. Because then it will be an informed choice. Edited January 30, 2018 by Goddess 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goddess Posted January 30, 2018 Report Share Posted January 30, 2018 There's probably a fatwa out on me right now. Haha 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dialamah Posted January 31, 2018 Report Share Posted January 31, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Goddess said: 1. This information was withheld from them in their former Islam-ruled countries and here, we withhold it from them out of some kind of misplaced pity or whatever. 2. If, after researching the history and purpose of the covers a woman THEN chooses to wear it.....I am in total agreement with her choice to wear it. Because then it will be an informed choice. 1. I haven't noticed any withholding of information about the burka et al. It is controversial around the world, including in Islamic countries. 2. I suspect your assumption is that if these women were informed of its misogynistic implications, they'd toss it. Given that in the West especially this information is pretty well broadcast, I think most Muslim women are pretty well informed. How could they not be? Edited January 31, 2018 by dialamah 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CITIZEN_2015 Posted January 31, 2018 Report Share Posted January 31, 2018 20 minutes ago, dialamah said: 1. I haven't noticed any withholding of information about the burka et al. It is controversial around the world, including in Islamic countries. 2. I suspect your assumption is that if these women were informed of its misogynistic implications, they'd toss it. Given that in the West especially this information is pretty well broadcast, I think most Muslim women are pretty well informed. How could they not be? Yes good post. Especially in the West most women who wear hijab are doing so by choice without any pressure from the laws of the country or relatives. We have to respect that choice. Someone researching about certain religion and now she is the new Ayatolah imposing her wishes upon other people as how they have to dress. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CITIZEN_2015 Posted January 31, 2018 Report Share Posted January 31, 2018 (edited) Btw, Goddess you never answered this below direted at you!!!!!!!! Is that because you have no answer? Or you don't wish to admit or wish to hide the fact that you are as bad as the Ayatolahs? 2 hours ago, CITIZEN_2015 said: So what are you going to do with those who do?. Are you going to forcefully tear off the hijab off their heads or order law enforcement to arrest them and put them in jail?. Would Canada become same level as Islamic Republic if we elect you as our Prime Minister in future? Edited January 31, 2018 by CITIZEN_2015 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goddess Posted January 31, 2018 Report Share Posted January 31, 2018 (edited) 22 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said: Btw, Goddess you never answered this!!!!!!!! Is that because you have no answer? Actùally I have posted my idea on how to handle this in Canada already on this forum. But I didn't get the impression that you were really wanting an answer. It was presented as a personal attack because obviously if I'm not a hijab and burqa lover/fan/supporter that means I go around assaulting those who do. Edited January 31, 2018 by Goddess 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CITIZEN_2015 Posted January 31, 2018 Report Share Posted January 31, 2018 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Goddess said: Actùally I have posted my idea on how to handle this in Canada already on this forum. But I didn't get the impression that you were really wanting an answer. It was presented as a personal attack because obviously if I'm not a hijab and burqa lover/fan/supporter that means I go around assaulting those who do. It is a new thread and likely different audience and we both know no one here is a hijab and burqa lover/fan/supporter, just because I respect a woman's choice even if I personally don't agree with that choice. With all my posts encouraging support for Iranian women struggling for freedom of choice on not having to wear Islamic hijab I don't know how can anyone reach the conclusion that I may be a a hijab and burqa lover/fan/supporter!!!!!!!!!!!! Seriously!!!!! I would like an answer, as what you are going to do against those who CHOOSE to wear hijab in the Canada? Edited January 31, 2018 by CITIZEN_2015 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dialamah Posted January 31, 2018 Report Share Posted January 31, 2018 2 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said: It is a new thread and likely different audience and we both know no one here is a hijab and burqa lover/fan/supporter, just because I respect a women's choice even if I personaly don't agree with that choice. With all my posts encouraging support for Iranian women struggling for freedom of choice on not having to wear Islamic hijab I don't know how can anyone reach the conclusion that I may be a a hijab and burqa lover/fan/supporter!!!!!!!!!!!! Seriously!!!!! I would like an answer, as what you are going to do against those who CHOOSE to wear hijab in the West? Her response above suggests she'd let them. Plus she's not a fan of dictating to women what they should wear, whether its the gov, religion or individuals. She just hates Islamic dress because she views it as misogynistic and not a truly "free" choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goddess Posted January 31, 2018 Report Share Posted January 31, 2018 51 minutes ago, dialamah said: 1. I haven't noticed any withholding of information about the burka et al. It is controversial around the world, including in Islamic countries. 2. I suspect your assumption is that if these women were informed of its misogynistic implications, they'd toss it. Given that in the West especially this information is pretty well broadcast, I think most Muslim women are pretty well informed. How could they not be? 1. And yet this "controversial" item persists and is having a surge in popularity, especially in the West. 2. My arguments against these covers go beyond just that they are misogynistic. They are harmful physically, psychologically, emotionally. They affect not just women, but men and how they relate to women and they affect the children who are forced into them. This information is not well broadcast. You have to go looking for it. And the ones who do try to broadcast it end up having to hire bodyguards even when they are in free countries. Hirsi Ali, for just one,as you know. Others were killed. And No, I don't think most Muslim women have fully researched it, the same as the majority of people born into a religion never research it fully. It's a scary thing to do that. And its even scarier to disagree with a high-control religion, there are implications for family, community, friend relationships. And then you need to make a choice - go along with it, or leave it all behind. Not everyone has that strength, so even if they sense something is wrong, they won't "go there" in their mind. So basically, I think Muslim women are the same as everyone else - few will research their religion seriously. Fewer still will have the fortitude it rakes to face up honestly to what they find. And even fewer still would be willing to risk leaving it. It's much easier to just say, "It's my choice." 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CITIZEN_2015 Posted January 31, 2018 Report Share Posted January 31, 2018 (edited) 9 minutes ago, dialamah said: Her response above suggests she'd let them. Plus she's not a fan of dictating to women what they should wear, whether its the gov, religion or individuals. I didn't get the impression that she'd let them if they choose. If so we are on the same boat. She appears to be saying that because she has researched then she is smarter than them and knows what is good for them and makes decisions for them as what to wear. I was asking her how she is going to enforce her wishes in Canada against those who choose otherwise and wear a hijab? 9 minutes ago, dialamah said: She just hates Islamic dress On this again we are on the same boat but the difference is that I respect a woman's choice even if I don't agree with that choice and that is a big difference. Edited January 31, 2018 by CITIZEN_2015 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kactus Posted January 31, 2018 Report Share Posted January 31, 2018 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Goddess said: 1. And yet this "controversial" item persists and is having a surge in popularity, especially in the West. 2. My arguments against these covers go beyond just that they are misogynistic. They are harmful physically, psychologically, emotionally. They affect not just women, but men and how they relate to women and they affect the children who are forced into them. This information is not well broadcast. You have to go looking for it. And the ones who do try to broadcast it end up having to hire bodyguards even when they are in free countries. Hirsi Ali, for just one,as you know. Others were killed. And No, I don't think most Muslim women have fully researched it, the same as the majority of people born into a religion never research it fully. It's a scary thing to do that. And its even scarier to disagree with a high-control religion, there are implications for family, community, friend relationships. And then you need to make a choice - go along with it, or leave it all behind. Not everyone has that strength, so even if they sense something is wrong, they won't "go there" in their mind. So basically, I think Muslim women are the same as everyone else - few will research their religion seriously. Fewer still will have the fortitude it rakes to face up honestly to what they find. And even fewer still would be willing to risk leaving it. It's much easier to just say, "It's my choice." Just a question is it just the islamic dress code or do you have a problem with dress codes of other religions in Canada too? Edited January 31, 2018 by kactus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted January 31, 2018 Report Share Posted January 31, 2018 1 minute ago, kactus said: Just a question is it just hijab wear for islamic religion you have a peoblem with ir does it also extend to other religions on Canada too? Do you still beat your wife? 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CITIZEN_2015 Posted January 31, 2018 Report Share Posted January 31, 2018 (edited) 14 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said: Do you still beat your wife? This is the stupidest comment I ever seen at anytime. It is like me asking you if you still rape or incest or drink and drive just because a tiny minority in the west may do that. And wife battering is as much a western disease A clear case of personal attack and bigotry. Sad. I did remind you hours ago of your medication. Run and take them. Edited January 31, 2018 by CITIZEN_2015 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goddess Posted January 31, 2018 Report Share Posted January 31, 2018 18 minutes ago, kactus said: Just a question is it just the islamic dress code or do you have a problem with dress codes of other religions in Canada too? I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that this is an honest question and not a personal attack and answer this. However, I can't tonight. I'll respond in the morning, if you still want to discuss it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kactus Posted January 31, 2018 Report Share Posted January 31, 2018 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Goddess said: I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that this is an honest question and not a personal attack and answer this. However, I can't tonight. I'll respond in the morning, if you still want to discuss it. Ofcourse I want to discuss that’s why I asked the question. Not sure what you mean by personal attack.... It’s funny you question me about personal attack by asking you a direct question yet you are the one who approve DOP’s comment about me beating the wife. That sounds a lot more like a personal attack! Edited January 31, 2018 by kactus 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CITIZEN_2015 Posted January 31, 2018 Report Share Posted January 31, 2018 (edited) Yes it appears she sees genuine questions as personal attacks!!!. I simply asked her how she is going to enforce her opposition to wearing hijab against those who choose to wear them and to me too she responded she didn't think i wanted an answer and she thought I meant my question as personal attack!!!!!!!. Strange!!!!!. 6 minutes ago, kactus said: .It’s funny you question me about personal attack by asking you a direct question yet you are the one who approve DOP’s comment about me beating the wife. That is a personal attack! Yes exactly well said. Edited January 31, 2018 by CITIZEN_2015 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kactus Posted January 31, 2018 Report Share Posted January 31, 2018 (edited) Back to the topic discussed here.... I think any change in so far as democracy comes from within vis a vis Iran. There has been many occassions if this uprisings most notably the green movement in 2009 when protesters took to the streets to dispute the election of Ahmadinejhad and call for more political freedom. Some even asked for removal of Khamenei as the supreme leader, which is unprecedented It took Europe 500 years during middle ages before democracy flourished. I believe this will also happen in Iran at a much shorter time scale. Democracy is not something that can be exported nor by installing puppet governments in those countries that only serve our own interests for short term gains. The best West can do is to stop meddling in Iran’s affairs (if oil interests does not get in the way) and put pressure on the regime IMHO. Edited January 31, 2018 by kactus 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dialamah Posted January 31, 2018 Report Share Posted January 31, 2018 46 minutes ago, Goddess said: 1. And yet this "controversial" item persists and is having a surge in popularity, especially in the West. According to Pew Research, Islam is the fastest growing religion in the States. There are several reasons for this, among them the relative youth of it's adherents and their tendency to larger families. However, they also gain many converts from Christian religions; the number of people who leave Islam and the number who convert to Islam are about the same. Why do you suppose women, born and raised in a Western country, would choose to wear something like a burqa or niqab? Do you think they are 'forced'? Quote My arguments against these covers go beyond just that they are misogynistic. They are harmful physically, psychologically, emotionally. They affect not just women, but men and how they relate to women and they affect the children who are forced into them. This information is not well broadcast. You have to go looking for it. And the ones who do try to broadcast it end up having to hire bodyguards even when they are in free countries. Hirsi Ali, for just one,as you know. Others were killed. And No, I don't think most Muslim women have fully researched it, the same as the majority of people born into a religion never research it fully. It's a scary thing to do that. And its even scarier to disagree with a high-control religion, there are implications for family, community, friend relationships. And then you need to make a choice - go along with it, or leave it all behind. Not everyone has that strength, so even if they sense something is wrong, they won't "go there" in their mind. Fair enough. Quote So basically, I think Muslim women are the same as everyone else - few will research their religion seriously. Fewer still will have the fortitude it rakes to face up honestly to what they find. And even fewer still would be willing to risk leaving it. And so I think you and I agree - the woman herself has to decide not to wear it. We can't impose our will on her, however much we might think she is being harmed. You know, my granddaughter got herself involved with some guy who's very controlling and suspicious of her every move. I've been worried about her, because she's at a vulnerable place in her life - but I had to bite my tongue and keep my comments very gentle and light, because until she's is ready to see what's going on, none of my criticism, advice or worry is going to persuade her. Thankfully, however, she let me know yesterday that she's about to move out. Now, I already love my granddaughter, so it was easy to accept her even when I saw her making a mistake - but should we do anything less even for women we don't know? Quote It's much easier to just say, "It's my choice." And for that moment in time, it really is the truth - at least for them, and even if they are having internal doubts. Given your experience, I bet you'd agree that even as you were having doubts, you would still defend what you were doing as your choice. I know I did, for at least a couple of years. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goddess Posted January 31, 2018 Report Share Posted January 31, 2018 (edited) 14 hours ago, kactus said: Ofcourse I want to discuss that’s why I asked the question. Not sure what you mean by personal attack.... It’s funny you question me about personal attack by asking you a direct question yet you are the one who approve DOP’s comment about me beating the wife. That sounds a lot more like a personal attack! DOP's comment wasn't accusing you of beating your wife. It was his way of saying that you are asking a loaded question for which there is no right answer - if you answer Yes, then you're a wife beater, If you answer No, you're still a wife beater. It's a classic. And an indication that the question isn't genuine. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loaded_question I have a meeting now, but I'll be back. Edited January 31, 2018 by Goddess 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kactus Posted January 31, 2018 Report Share Posted January 31, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Goddess said: DOP's comment wasn't accusing you of beating your wife. It was his way of saying that you are asking a loaded question for which there is no right answer - if you answer Yes, then you're a wife beater, If you answer No, you're still a wife beater. It's a classic. And an indication that the question isn't genuine. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loaded_question I have a meeting now, but I'll be back. I am not asking for right or wrong answer....People can make whatever presupposition by my question here they want. Frankly, I don't care.... I am asking your opinion. Hence, I asked the question. Edited January 31, 2018 by kactus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CITIZEN_2015 Posted January 31, 2018 Report Share Posted January 31, 2018 (edited) Again going back to the discussion, in a latest bravery demonstrated by Iranian women some 300 lionheart Iranian females voiced support for the protests in an iron fist state. http://www.payvand.com/news/18/jan/1146.html Edited January 31, 2018 by CITIZEN_2015 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted January 31, 2018 Report Share Posted January 31, 2018 2 hours ago, Goddess said: DOP's comment wasn't accusing you of beating your wife. It was his way of saying that you are asking a loaded question for which there is no right answer - if you answer Yes, then you're a wife beater, If you answer No, you're still a wife beater. It's a classic. And an indication that the question isn't genuine. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loaded_question I have a meeting now, but I'll be back. I suspect English isn't the first language of many "Canadians". Nor French for that matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted January 31, 2018 Report Share Posted January 31, 2018 21 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said: Again going back to the discussion, in a latest bravery demonstrated by Iranian women some 300 lionheart Iranian females voiced support for the protests in an iron fist state. http://www.payvand.com/news/18/jan/1146.html So bring back the Shah...remove the Mullahs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted January 31, 2018 Report Share Posted January 31, 2018 16 hours ago, kactus said: Just a question is it just the islamic dress code or do you have a problem with dress codes of other religions in Canada too? This is a LOADED QUESTION. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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