Iran needs some democracy

[CITIZEN_2015]

5 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Nobody ever won their freedom by protesting over head scarves...the tree of liberty is nourished by spilled blood.

I guess the blood of two dozen demonstrators who were killed on streets and the others who were killed in jails were not enough for you? They are all related.

Edited January 30, 2018 by CITIZEN_2015

[Goddess]

1 minute ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Nobody ever won their freedom by protesting over head scarves...the tree of liberty is nourished by spilled blood.

Exactly.  Women have been and continue to be killed for protesting these covers.

I just fail to see how promoting the views of radical Islam by pretending these covers have anything at all to do with women's rights and freedoms, supports the Iranian women.

[bush_cheney2004]

Just now, CITIZEN_2015 said:

I guess the blood of two dozen demonstrators who were killed on streets and the others who were killed in jails were not enough for you?

 

Nope...need lots more blood from the oppressors....fight the power that be !

[Goddess]

4 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

I never said they are can you quote me on that? I said it is a symbol of oppression of women BUT if it is a woman's choice then yes it become a women's choice because a women has chosen to wear it. I am calling a spade a spade.

And I'm calling your spade a shovel.

Just because women participate in their own oppression doesn't make it not oppression.

[DogOnPorch]

Just now, Goddess said:

Exactly.  Women have been and continue to be killed for protesting these covers.

I just fail to see how promoting the views of radical Islam by pretending these covers have anything at all to do with women's rights and freedoms, supports the Iranian women.

 

A lot of what the West stands for these days DEPENDS on Islam being as benign as say...Christianity. It just HAS to be...otherwise...ooooops.

[DogOnPorch]

1 minute ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Nope...need lots more blood from the oppressors....fight the power that be !

 

Roger that.

[CITIZEN_2015]

8 minutes ago, Goddess said:

And I'm calling your spade a shovel.

Just because women participate in their own oppression doesn't make it not oppression.

And who are you to decide for them (others) what to wear and what not to wear. What gives you the authority to decide and reject other people's choices? I appreciate that you may have suffered in the past but that does not give you the right to decide over other people's body as what they choose to wear or do with their bodies. 

Edited January 30, 2018 by CITIZEN_2015

[DogOnPorch]

5 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

And who are you to decide for them (others) what to wear and what not to wear. I appreciate that you may have suffered in the past but that does not give you the right to decide over other people's body as what they choose to wear or do with their bodies. 

 

Besides, those hats with the skulls do look kinda cool, eh?

Burqa/Hijab = Islam as per Quran

https://quran.com/24/31

Edited January 30, 2018 by DogOnPorch

[Goddess]

22 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

I never said they are can you quote me on that? I said it is a symbol of oppression of women BUT if it is a woman's choice then yes it become a women's choice because a women has chosen to wear it. I am calling a spade a spade.

I'm also calling out the idea of it being a choice. 

The choice is:  Wear it or.......

a. You will be cursed by Allah as a disobedient woman and go to Hell.

b. You can never leave the house or be seen in public.

c. Your male/female relatives will honour kill you.

d. Your male/female relatives will beat you til you comply.

e. You will be ostracized by your community.

f. You will not be viewed as marriageable.

g.  Some combination of the above.

Given those choices, I'm not surprised that many women are forced to find some kind of "peace" with themselves and their family and their community, so they say, "Yes, it's my choice to wear it."

Edited January 30, 2018 by Goddess

[CITIZEN_2015]

2 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

Besides, those hats with the skulls do look kinda cool, eh?

I think for some reasons you are obsessed with the Nazis. Did you or any of your relatives serve for them in the past or present, DogOnPorch?

Edited January 30, 2018 by CITIZEN_2015

[Goddess]

6 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

And who are you to decide for them (others) what to wear and what not to wear. What gives you the authority to decide and reject other people's choices? I appreciate that you may have suffered in the past but that does not give you the right to decide over other people's body as what they choose to wear or do with their bodies. 

No.  But it is my right to be able to walk around in my country and not have it shoved in my face that women can, at any time, be forced back into the 7th century.

[DogOnPorch]

1 minute ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

I think for some reasons you are obsessed with the Nazis. Did you or any of your relatives serve for them in the past or present, DogOnPorch?

 

Islam and the Nazis joined forces during WW2.

[DogOnPorch]

3 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

I think for some reasons you are obsessed with the Nazis. Did you or any of your relatives serve for them in the past or present, DogOnPorch?

 

BBC comedy skit. Not Nazis...Canadian.

[CITIZEN_2015]

3 minutes ago, Goddess said:

No.  But it is my right to be able to walk around in my country and not have it shoved in my face that women can, at any time, be forced back into the 7th century.

It is same as THEY say that they do not wish to walk around their country and not have (your skirt, your blouse, your make up,....) shoved in their face. We have to compromise and accept differences. Try to see them from their point of view. 

Edited January 30, 2018 by CITIZEN_2015

[CITIZEN_2015]

7 minutes ago, Goddess said:

I'm also calling the idea of it being a choice. 

The choice is:  Wear it or.......

a. You will be cursed by Allah as a disobedient woman and go to Hell.

b. You can never leave the house or be seen in public.

c. Your male/female relatives will honour kill you.

d. Your male/female relatives will beat you til you comply.

e. You will be ostracized by your community.

f. You will not be viewed as marriageable.

g.  Some combination of the above.

Given those choices, I'm not surprised that many women are forced to find some kind of "peace" with themselves and their family and their community, so they say, "Yes, it's my choice to wear it."

You have some very good points which I think applies to many but not all cases.

[Goddess]

3 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

It is same as THEY say that they do not wish to walk around their country and not have (your skirt, your blouse, your make up,....) shoved in their face. We have to compromise and accept differences.

No, I don't have to accept 7th century radical Islamist's treatment of women.  I really don't.

[DogOnPorch]

Since some are too daft to figure it out from a BBC comedy skit: uniforms matter.

They really do.

[Goddess]

6 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

It is same as THEY say that they do not wish to walk around their country and not have (your skirt, your blouse, your make up,....) shoved in their face. We have to compromise and accept differences.

You seem to agree that it's wrong for men to force women to wear these things.  But if it's WOMEN forcing the issue, that makes a difference for you.  For me, it doesn't.  Whether it's Muslim men or Muslim women promoting hijabs and burquas - makes no difference to me.  It doesn't change the meaning of the garments.

[CITIZEN_2015]

7 minutes ago, Goddess said:

You seem to agree that it's wrong for men to force women to wear these things.  But if it's WOMEN forcing the issue, that makes a difference for you.  For me, it doesn't.  Whether it's Muslim men or Muslim women promoting hijabs and burquas - makes no difference to me.  It doesn't change the meaning of the garments.

Again I never said if a woman forces it is okay. Again I challenge you to quote me on what you claim I said. I said if a women chooses FOR HERSELF (chooses for herself for her own reasons whatever they may be NOT forces someone else as it would be even worse if she does that) then that is a choice HER choice and who are we to argue with her choice as if we do then we are as bad as those who force hijab.

Edited January 30, 2018 by CITIZEN_2015

[kactus]

The unfortunate thing is that social media in the countey is restricted by the apparatus of the regime. Fortunately women and younger generations making 65% of the population have the means to access different news outlets

[Goddess]

11 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

Again I never said if a woman forces it is okay. Again I challenge you to quote me on what you claim I said. I said if a women chosses FOR HERSELF (chooses not forces someone else as it is even worse if she does) then that is a choice HER choice and who are we to argue with her choice as if we do then we are as bad as those who force hijab.

Again, I.  Don't. Care.

I don't care if it's women promoting it or men promoting it.

I don't care if a woman says she "chose" it.  Some women "choose" to stay in abusive relationships.  No, we can't go in and drag them out of abusive relationships for their own good.  But we also don't make it legal to abuse your wife.  And we don't accept it as a "different" way of life.

It is abuse.  Whether the woman stays and is complicit in her own abuse is, as you say, her "choice".  I do not have to respect or accept that choice.  We're not talking about choosing to eat or  not eat something, choosing to drink alcohol or nor drink it.  We are talking here about something that is ABUSE OF WOMEN.  I do not want to see it promoted in my country.  I do not want to see it legitimized in any way.  I do not want abuse of women to be paraded around the streets and lauded as, "Ooooo, look at how progressive we are in Canada!  We allow women the choice to be abused if they want it!"

 

Quote

if we do then we are as bad as those who force hijab.

 

Just.....No.  So much No in that statement.

Edited January 30, 2018 by Goddess

[kactus]

2 minutes ago, Goddess said:

Again, I.  Don't. Care.

I don't care if it's women promoting it or men promoting it.

I don't care if a woman says she "chose" it.  Some women "choose" to stay in abusive relationships.  No, we can't go in and drag them out of abusive relationships for their own good.  But we also don't make it legal to abuse your wife.  And we don't accept it as a "different" way of life.

It is abuse.  Whether the woman stays and is complicit in her own abuse is, as you say, her "choice".  I do not have to respect or accept that choice.  We're not talking about choosing to eat or  not eat something, choosing to drink alcohol or nor drink it.  We are talking here about something that is ABUSE OF WOMEN.  I do not want to see it promoted in my country.  I do not want to see it legitimized in any way.  I do not want abuse of women to be paraded around the streets and lauded as, "Ooooo, look at how progressive we are in Canada!  We allow women the choice to be abused if they want it!"

I don’t think anyone is opposing that view but I also agree with citizen that it is a matter of choice. It is not prescriptive but a choice.

[DogOnPorch]

5 minutes ago, Goddess said:

Again, I.  Don't. Care.

I don't care if it's women promoting it or men promoting it.

I don't care if a woman says she "chose" it.  Some women "choose" to stay in abusive relationships.  No, we can't go in and drag them out of abusive relationships for their own good.  But we also don't make it legal to abuse your wife.  And we don't accept it as a "different" way of life.

It is abuse.  Whether the woman stays and is complicit in her own abuse is, as you say, her "choice".  I do not have to respect or accept that choice.  We're not talking about choosing to eat or  not eat something, choosing to drink alcohol or nor drink it.  We are talking here about something that is ABUSE OF WOMEN.  I do not want to see it promoted in my country.  I do not want to see it legitimized in any way.  I do not want abuse of women to be paraded around the streets and lauded as, "Ooooo, look at how progressive we are in Canada!  We allow women the choice to be abused if they want it!"

 

 

Just.....No.  So much No in that statement.

 

As you yourself pointed-out...the Quran states that the Muslim woman should draw the veil about her face to PREVENT ABUSE...implying two very different things at the same time. Neither very good at all.

 

[Goddess]

6 minutes ago, kactus said:

I don’t think anyone is opposing that view but I also agree with citizen that it is a matter of choice. It is not prescriptive but a choice.

I agree with the part about letting women choose.  But only to a point.  In this case, I think the harmful effects of it outweigh any benefit to letting women "choose"  it.

It's also people's choice to take fentanyl.  But the harmful effects of it outweigh allowing people to make that "choice".

[DogOnPorch]

One can not mention democracy in Iran without a tip-o-the-hat to the Communist Tudeh Party of Iran (now heavily repressed by the Mullahs). It was the Tudehs that conspired with the USSR to try and seize Iran in 1946. The UN's first crisis. It was also the Tudehs that made Mossadeq's election possible...throwing their weight behind him...then turning on him during the Coup...heh.

 A lot of the Tudehs were lined-up against the wall in the post 1979 period...as were other opponents to the Islamic Revolution. But, they'd still likely figure in any future democratic Iran.