Altai Posted October 2, 2017 Report Share Posted October 2, 2017 Some guys in Spain are "voting" (this is the magic word) to be independent than Spain but appearently noone cares in the World about their "democratic" rights I am sure some big countries are quite interested with dividing other countries into pieces but what about rest of the European countries and folks ? I cant see them caring about "democracy". I see only US and Britain (leaves EU) is interested with Spanish "democracy". These two evils are as usual, want to divide anything into pieces to swallow much easier. What about others ? Almost its not even on the news. I think European countries are disturbed by "democracy" because of if "democracy" will be succesfull in Spain, the next stop for "democracy" will be their own countries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scribblet Posted October 2, 2017 Report Share Posted October 2, 2017 The Spanish courts ruled that the vote was illegal, only the central gov't can organize such voting. Therefore - there should not be a vote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altai Posted October 2, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 2, 2017 1 hour ago, scribblet said: The Spanish courts ruled that the vote was illegal, only the central gov't can organize such voting. Therefore - there should not be a vote. So you mean it violates the Spanish constitutions ? Is it a kind of religion ? Are constitutions your holly book ? Do minorities have to obey constitutions made by majorities based on majority interests ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scribblet Posted October 2, 2017 Report Share Posted October 2, 2017 All people have to obey the court's rulings and the law of the land, obviously it is not a religion but the Constitution is the last word. There is an election coming so the people can choose to vote for another party which will allow an independence vote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altai Posted October 2, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 2, 2017 54 minutes ago, scribblet said: All people have to obey the court's rulings and the law of the land, obviously it is not a religion but the Constitution is the last word. There is an election coming so the people can choose to vote for another party which will allow an independence vote. So you defend the idea that you can force people to do things which they dont want to do, just because of you are much more crowded than them. So minorities does not have any right and they have to obey majority and live as the slaves of majority for ever. Atheist mindset. Nice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesHackerMP Posted October 4, 2017 Report Share Posted October 4, 2017 (edited) The built in danger to all democracies is "the tyranny of the majority." essentially the 50% + 1 run have the power to force the 50% - 1 to do what the former wants. by the way: what's "sofrito sauce"? Edited October 4, 2017 by JamesHackerMP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted October 4, 2017 Report Share Posted October 4, 2017 3 hours ago, JamesHackerMP said: The built in danger to all democracies is "the tyranny of the majority." Especially when that majority is disengaged, distracted, overwhelmed, and ignorant of the incredible mass of complex issues that they're expected to have an informed opinion on. I've always said that lower voter turnout is a feature of successful democracy, not a problem. Government needs to cultivate 'publics' - plural - that will keep them in check and watch what they're doing. But who has ever asked for more pressure from their bosses ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesHackerMP Posted October 4, 2017 Report Share Posted October 4, 2017 Hmmm, good point Michael. Take into account, that during the Weimar Republic, public participation in politics and political organizations was actually HIGHER than in present-day Germany. (If that tells us anything.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted October 4, 2017 Report Share Posted October 4, 2017 10 hours ago, JamesHackerMP said: by the way: what's "sofrito sauce"? Spanish cooking base. Like Carrots, Celery and Onions. Different cultures have different examples of this. An example of a Spanish Sofrito is Tomato, Garlic and Onion diced and used as a flavour base for, let's say a Paella. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted October 4, 2017 Report Share Posted October 4, 2017 (edited) Would there an agreement that should Catalonia separate that they take their share of the Spanish debt? Would they automatically get to enter the EU? We, as Canadians have been down this road. The UK has dealt with it too with Scotland. I get that member Altai's narrative is to question Western democracy as not being all that great. But pointing out where Western freedom isn't absolute doesn't counter the fact that it's still the freest and most prosperous system of government we have globally. I'm sure a autocratic dictator wouldn't let a region that believes it's a state leave. See Putin keeping Chechnya or Iraq keeping Kurdistan. Edited October 4, 2017 by Boges 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-TSS- Posted October 4, 2017 Report Share Posted October 4, 2017 Most central governments tend to regard votes for secession as illegal. In the case of Spain and Catalonia the issue is that Catalonia is the weathiest part of Spain and it contributes far above its weight in terms of GDP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altai Posted October 5, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2017 19 hours ago, Boges said: I get that member Altai's narrative is to question Western democracy as not being all that great. But pointing out where Western freedom isn't absolute doesn't counter the fact that it's still the freest and most prosperous system of government we have globally. As I said before, its not free or freest, its just another dictatorship. You are just given lollipops in your mouth to play around without making so much noise. When you start to make noise, for example Catalonia, you will see what happens. You are a perfect example of it, you are just sucking your "democracy" lollipop and your illusioned zombie brain moves your lips to grumble "I am free". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted October 5, 2017 Report Share Posted October 5, 2017 32 minutes ago, Altai said: As I said before, its not free or freest, its just another dictatorship. You are just given lollipops in your mouth to play around without making so much noise. When you start to make noise, for example Catalonia, you will see what happens. You are a perfect example of it, you are just sucking your "democracy" lollipop and your illusioned zombie brain moves your lips to grumble "I am free". Propose a better system, I'll hang up and listen. I'm pretty free to do plenty of things you can't in other parts of the world. You could make the argument that all governments are dictatorships. But there is a method in place to change who the governments are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altai Posted October 5, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2017 1 hour ago, Boges said: Propose a better system, I'll hang up and listen. I'm pretty free to do plenty of things you can't in other parts of the world. You could make the argument that all governments are dictatorships. But there is a method in place to change who the governments are. So what kind of a relation there are between being ruled by "democracy" and being "freest" ? For example for what you did vote to have it ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted October 5, 2017 Report Share Posted October 5, 2017 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Altai said: So what kind of a relation there are between being ruled by "democracy" and being "freest" ? For example for what you did vote to have it ? What rules you? Democracy is all I've known. Ultimately this is just a meaningless debate, it's the system we have. You didn't answer my question. What's a better system of governance? Edited October 5, 2017 by Boges Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altai Posted October 5, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2017 1 hour ago, Boges said: What rules you? Democracy is all I've known. Ultimately this is just a meaningless debate, it's the system we have. You didn't answer my question. What's a better system of governance? I have replied your question long ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted October 5, 2017 Report Share Posted October 5, 2017 10 minutes ago, Altai said: I have replied your question long ago. I'm not going to look at other threads to see what your past statements are. Who decides what's right if not an elected government and a court system to keep them in check? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altai Posted October 5, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2017 38 minutes ago, Boges said: I'm not going to look at other threads to see what your past statements are. Who decides what's right if not an elected government and a court system to keep them in check? You have no any other change than reading old posts. I cant write the same things over and over again. Read my democracy is nonsense and there is nothing to discuss topics Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesHackerMP Posted October 6, 2017 Report Share Posted October 6, 2017 On 10/5/2017 at 8:44 AM, Altai said: As I said before, its not free or freest, its just another dictatorship. You are just given lollipops in your mouth to play around without making so much noise. When you start to make noise, for example Catalonia, you will see what happens. You are a perfect example of it, you are just sucking your "democracy" lollipop and your illusioned zombie brain moves your lips to grumble "I am free". I'm curious, Altai, have you traveled outside Turkey? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted October 6, 2017 Report Share Posted October 6, 2017 On 10/2/2017 at 10:32 AM, Altai said: So you defend the idea that you can force people to do things which they dont want to do, just because of you are much more crowded than them. So minorities does not have any right and they have to obey majority and live as the slaves of majority for ever. Atheist mindset. Nice Kind of reminds me of the Kurds.....but they don't count do they..... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queenmandy85 Posted October 6, 2017 Report Share Posted October 6, 2017 So, Altai, by your logic, the Kurds should be allowed to break away from Turkey and be an independent nation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hot enough Posted October 6, 2017 Report Share Posted October 6, 2017 (edited) On 10/4/2017 at 11:55 AM, Boges said: I'm sure a autocratic dictator wouldn't let a region that believes it's a state leave. See Putin keeping Chechnya or Iraq keeping Kurdistan. Or US/Cuba. US/Guatemala. US/Indonesia. US/Korea. US/Nicaragua. US/Guam. US/Hawaii. US/Marshall Islands. US/Puerto Rico. US/Haiti. US/China. US/Mexico. US/Honduras. US/Dominican Republic. US/... Edited October 6, 2017 by hot enough Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hot enough Posted October 6, 2017 Report Share Posted October 6, 2017 On 10/2/2017 at 6:04 AM, scribblet said: The Spanish courts ruled that the vote was illegal, only the central gov't can organize such voting. Therefore - there should not be a vote. The British courts rules that the American colonists were early terrorists and they turned out to be completely correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted October 6, 2017 Report Share Posted October 6, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, hot enough said: Or US/Cuba. US/Guatemala. US/Indonesia. US/Korea. US/Nicaragua. US/Guam. US/Hawaii. US/Marshall Islands. US/Puerto Rico. US/Haiti. US/China. US/Mexico. US/Honduras. US/Dominican Republic. US/... Cept for Guam and Hawaii those are all independent nations. If you said Puerto Rico, then I'd agree. Edited October 6, 2017 by Boges Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hot enough Posted October 6, 2017 Report Share Posted October 6, 2017 18 minutes ago, Boges said: Cept for Guam and Hawaii those are all independent nations. If you said Puerto Rico, then I'd agree. I did say Puerto Rico. The point, which you seem to be missing, your own point, to wit, "I'm sure a autocratic dictator wouldn't let a region that believes it's a state leave" is exactly what the USA has done to all these nations, some multiple times. To even suggest right now that they are all truly independent nations is a stretch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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