NAFTA negotiations.

[bush_cheney2004]

1 hour ago, turningrite said:

I found the last sentence in your second link the most fascinating aspect of your post. If no single country matters all that much to the U.S. economy, why is Trump making such a big deal about America's trading relationships? My guess is that a lot of it is smoke and mirrors to distract from his more pressing political problems, including but not limited to the Mueller investigation and controversial immigration policies like removing children from their parents.

 

Because Trump campaigned on the promise to disrupt globalism for U.S. advantage instead of more of the same trade imbalances, IP theft, outsourcing,  and NATO deadbeats.

This was long before any Mueller investigation, and he was joined by (Democrat) Bernie Sanders on nixing NAFTA.

NAFTA has run its course...the world is different now.    The U.S. should leave NAFTA as provided for in the agreement.

[paxamericana]

3 hours ago, turningrite said:

I found the last sentence in your second link the most fascinating aspect of your post. If no single country matters all that much to the U.S. economy, why is Trump making such a big deal about America's trading relationships? My guess is that a lot of it is smoke and mirrors to distract from his more pressing political problems, including but not limited to the Mueller investigation and controversial immigration policies like removing children from their parents. Not long ago Trump was pressing for a quick deal on the NAFTA negotiations but now it appears he's willing to put the issue on the back burner, well at least until after the midterms. The changes in emphasis and timing can't be coincidental. Trump doesn't have the business community onside with his trade war, as illustrated by the announcement that the U.S. Chamber of Commerce intends to campaign against his tariffs (see link, below). One shouldn't get carried away with the notion that trade concerns are really driving Trump's current antics, particularly against allies, when it's far more likely they're a political sideshow intended to assist his own and Republican Party interests in the upcoming midterms.

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/07/02/us-chamber-of-commerce-trump-689658?tab=most-read

You don't get it do you. This ain't about trump its about Canada and the EU ripping off americans whilst asking us to defend you all. Trump was not the first president to bring this issue up and he won't be the last. All the other president kept a low profile with their displeasure but not trump because he has no political capital to do so. So get it in your head, you need us, you need to lower your trade barrier that will benefit everyone. Start paying more for your own defense. We are asking for  2 percent. You are currently at 1.2 and have no plan to get it up to 2 even in 10 years. America is starting to wake up to the injustice we've been suffering for the past 70 years. Trump is raising the alarm and you can't even realize he's doing it for your own good. If you want to bury your head in the sand and hope trump will go away then start learning russian and chinese. 

PS: you do realize "U.S. Chamber of Commerce" isn't actually a branch of our government right. That's the largest lobbying group in America... http://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/top.php?showYear=2015&indexType=s

Edited July 3, 2018 by paxrom

[Jimwd]

11 hours ago, bcsapper said:

Fascists are not constrained.  That's how they get to be fascists.  If you mean he would like to be a fascist, maybe.  I don't know him well enough. 

But again, we were talking about Nazis.

And as for your last sentence, that's your opinion, not mine.

Fascists are not constrained by the law? Really? Then why did Hitler  move in a series of progressions? Did you think he just came to power and started  building ovens?. Did you think the Germans started ostracizing Jews the first day. It was a series of steps that gradually lead the German people down the path that Hitler lead them.

 

[Zeitgeist]

What is the cost of resettling 50000 Syrians displaced by the geopolitical mess made by the U.S.?  It’s far higher than NATO dues.  The U.S. is a deadbeat in accepting refugees.  It makes messes for allies to clean up. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Jimwd said:

Fascists are not constrained by the law? Really? Then why did Hitler  move in a series of progressions? Did you think he just came to power and started  building ovens?. Did you think the Germans started ostracizing Jews the first day. It was a series of steps that gradually lead the German people down the path that Hitler lead them.

 

So you do think that the Supreme Court's days are numbered, and the next presidential elections are but a dream?  And as we were discussing Nazis, you also think the railroads should be gearing up to increase their freight traffic?

I have to disagree.  And to get back to my original point, anyone who calls  alt-right protestors Nazis really has forgotten their history.  Unless one becomes a Nazi simply by getting a swastika tattoo. In which case, I think I'll be an astronaut.

Edited July 3, 2018 by bcsapper

[Queenmandy85]

The complaint that Canada and some European nations are not contributing to NATO is a bit of a red herring. The purpose of NATO is to deter Russia from invading Western Europe. The only weapons that will accomplish that are nuclear. Only the US, France and Britain are permitted to have nuclear weapons under the Nuclear Non-proliferation Treaty. Troops on the ground, tanks and tactical aircraft are irrelavent in the era of ICBM's, and SLBM's

[Jimwd]

16 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

So you do think that the Supreme Court's days are numbered, and the next presidential elections are but a dream?  And as we were discussing Nazis, you also think the railroads should be gearing up to increase their freight traffic?

I have to disagree.  And to get back to my original point, anyone who calls  alt-right protestors Nazis really has forgotten their history.  Unless one becomes a Nazi simply by getting a swastika tattoo. In which case, I think I'll be an astronaut.

Apparently you don't know what fascism is. Mussolini  didn't do any of the things that Hitler  did regarding your post, yet he was a Fascist.

There are a lot of good articles on fascism  if you care to get an education, instead of emabassing yourself.

Just a suggestion.

As far as being a nazi..the  requirement is a belief in their ideology. Just like being a baptist. All it requires is a belief in their teachings.

[paxamericana]

19 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

Troops on the ground, tanks and tactical aircraft are irrelavent in the era of ICBM's, and SLBM's

Uh ukraine?

[paxamericana]

47 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

What is the cost of resettling 50000 Syrians displaced by the geopolitical mess made by the U.S.?  It’s far higher than NATO dues.  The U.S. is a deadbeat in accepting refugees.  It makes messes for allies to clean up. 

Syria was caused by us pulling out of iraq, a direct result of obama's foreign policy...second did you forget about isis, don't lose sight of why we're there. The middle east has been stabilized ever since trump re deployed forces there, stemming the flow of refugees. 

[Guest]

18 minutes ago, Jimwd said:

Apparently you don't know what fascism is. Mussolini  didn't do any of the things that Hitler  did regarding your post, yet he was a Fascist.

There are a lot of good articles on fascism  if you care to get an education, instead of emabassing yourself.

Just a suggestion.

As far as being a nazi..the  requirement is a belief in their ideology. Just like being a baptist. All it requires is a belief in their teachings.

I think the ones who are embarrassing themselves are those comparing today's alt right protestors to Nazi Germany, which is where we started this conversation.  We went from there to including the current US government.  If you want to broaden the definition of fascist to include wannabees (maybe) who will be out on their ear come the next election, go ahead.  I suppose then there will be quite a few, on both sides of the political divide.  Our universities appear to be full of them. 

Edited July 3, 2018 by bcsapper

[Jimwd]

Just now, paxrom said:

Syria was caused by us pulling out of iraq, a direct result of obama's foreign policy...second did you forget about isis, don't lose sight of why we're there. The middle east has been stabilized ever since trump re deployed forces there, stemming the flow of refugees. 

Syria was caused by Assad. Obama went to congress and was denied permission. Republican congress.

Stick with the facts.

[Jimwd]

1 minute ago, bcsapper said:

I think the one's who are embarrassing themselves are those comparing today's alt right protestors to Nazi Germany, which is where we started this conversation.  We went from there to including the current US government.  If you want to broaden the definition of fascist to wannabees who will be out on their ear come the next election, go ahead.  I suppose then there will be quite a few, on both sides of the political divide.  Our universities appear to be full of them. 

Killing a girl in Charlottes ville is no small thing. In fact...... its a very dangerous time when White supremacists and Neo nazis are called fine people by the president. Check their web sites. Trump's dog whistles are working.

[paxamericana]

1 minute ago, Jimwd said:

Syria was caused by Assad. Obama went to congress and was denied permission. Republican congress.

Stick with the facts.

Fact says nato is there to defeat isis not assad. 

[Guest]

Just now, Jimwd said:

Killing a girl in Charlottes ville is no small thing. In fact...... its a very dangerous time when White supremacists and Neo nazis are called fine people by the president. Check their web sites. Trump's dog whistles are working.

It most certainly is not a small thing.  Any senseless death is a tragedy.  I don't see the connection though.  If you think Trump is dog whistling up an SS and a Hitler Youth from the disadvantaged south he's not blowing very hard. 

[turningrite]

9 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Because Trump campaigned on the promise to disrupt globalism for U.S. advantage instead of more of the same trade imbalances, IP theft, outsourcing,  and NATO deadbeats.

This was long before any Mueller investigation, and he was joined by (Democrat) Bernie Sanders on nixing NAFTA.

NAFTA has run its course...the world is different now.    The U.S. should leave NAFTA as provided for in the agreement.

It's very possible that NATO has run its course. Many now wonder if Trump is doing Putin's bidding in undermining NATO. Whatever the case, I think the Europeans should simply set up their own security system and tell the Americans to leave. It's probably long overdue. You have to remember that the initial purpose of NATO was to serve as an American-backed arrangement intended to thwart Soviet aggression. In other words, it was an instrument of American policy. Since 1989 its role has been unclear and with U.S. power and influence steadily declining in the world in relative terms it's probable Europe can get by on its own. Two EU member states are, after all, nuclear powers in their own right.

As for the NAFTA pact, Trump is now sending signals that it will likely be renewed - when the timing suits him. The likely scenario is that American corporations are unwilling to forfeit the advantages gained by integrated continental production systems and in particular the advantage of low-cost Mexican labour. Canada pressed for the initial FTA, which preceded the NAFTA, and at that time had some leverage in terms of its ability to contribute to American energy security. Now, that leverage has largely dissipated and we have little bargaining power left. Although the adjustment in ditching NAFTA will be substantial for Canada, and particularly for Central Canada, it won't be economically fatal, as the Toronto Star writer Thomas Walkom has noted. In the long run, it might actually be good for the Canadian economy. The real trade issue, to which Trump only occasionally alludes, is the WTO system and particularly the developing economy status and advantages China retains. But China has a lot of bargaining chips, so Trump takes out his trade frustrations on other partners. It's good domestic politics, but ultimately undermines American interests abroad.

 

[Queenmandy85]

14 minutes ago, paxrom said:

Uh ukraine?

Oh, yes, the massive tank battle when NATO pushed back the Russian invaders. I remember it well.

[paxamericana]

1 minute ago, Queenmandy85 said:

Oh, yes, the massive tank battle when NATO pushed back the Russian invaders. I remember it well.

Ukraine was caused by european's impotentcy and obama lack of will to fight. His cia director even admitted the russian figures out obama wasn't going to fight back and the european were impotent. 

 

[paxamericana]

7 minutes ago, turningrite said:

It's very possible that NATO has run its course. Many now wonder if Trump is doing Putin's bidding in undermining NATO. Whatever the case, I think the Europeans should simply set up their own security system and tell the Americans to leave. It's probably long overdue. You have to remember that the initial purpose of NATO was to serve as an American-backed arrangement intended to thwart Soviet aggression. In other words, it was an instrument of American policy. Since 1989 its role has been unclear and with U.S. power and influence steadily declining in the world in relative terms it's probable Europe can get by on its own. Two EU member states are, after all, nuclear powers in their own right.

As for the NAFTA pact, Trump is now sending signals that it will likely be renewed - when the timing suits him. The likely scenario is that American corporations are unwilling to forfeit the advantages gained by integrated continental production systems and in particular the advantage of low-cost Mexican labour. Canada pressed for the initial FTA, which preceded the NAFTA, and at that time had some leverage in terms of its ability to contribute to American energy security. Now, that leverage has largely dissipated and we have little bargaining power left. Although the adjustment in ditching NAFTA will be substantial for Canada, and particularly for Central Canada, it won't be economically fatal, as the Toronto Star writer Thomas Walkom has noted. In the long run, it might actually be good for the Canadian economy. The real trade issue, to which Trump only occasionally alludes, is the WTO system and particularly the developing economy status and advantages China retains. But China has a lot of bargaining chips, so Trump takes out his trade frustrations on other partners. It's good domestic politics, but ultimately undermines American interests abroad.

 

Yes Europe should increase their own defense and you too canada. I highly doubt they will ever reach a point where they can ask the us to leave. Our near peer adversary, china and russia are only getting more and more powerful. You need us. Look, no one want NATO to go away that would mean the end of free liberal democracy in europe. But at this current rate of ripping american off with trade and asking us to pay the most in defense is unsustainable. 

[paxamericana]

12 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

It most certainly is not a small thing.  Any senseless death is a tragedy.  I don't see the connection though.  If you think Trump is dog whistling up an SS and a Hitler Youth from the disadvantaged south he's not blowing very hard. 

He's a loss cause, he thinks everyone who disagree with him fascist. 

[turningrite]

43 minutes ago, paxrom said:

Yes Europe should increase their own defense and you too canada. I highly doubt they will ever reach a point where they can ask the us to leave. Our near peer adversary, china and russia are only getting more and more powerful. You need us. Look, no one want NATO to go away that would mean the end of free liberal democracy in europe. But at this current rate of ripping american off with trade and asking us to pay the most in defense is unsustainable. 

Actually, I think Canada should declare itself a militarily neutral state, like Mexico, and set up a civil defense force. We could then invite other countries, including Russia and China, to open bases on our territory in conjunction with non-aggression pacts with any country that wants access to our territory. Historically, and logically, the U.S. is our only natural ally and our only natural enemy. If Trump and the U.S. prefer to view us as an enemy, I'm sure we can find friends of convenience elsewhere. I wonder how all this would go over in Washington? Heads would, no doubt, start popping off shoulders.

The NAFTA experience has been a failure for many Canadians as well. Prior to Trump's election, polling indicated that a solid majority of Canadians felt it had hurt more than helped the country. Support for it today is essentially thin and is mainly sustained in response to Trump's bluster and bullying. It's interesting to note that Canada's relative prosperity, as defined by per capita GDP comparisons, has declined steadily throughout most of the NAFTA era and not just in relation to developing economies but also in relation to other advanced Western economies. From an objective point of view, it's mainly been a flop. We could revert to the pre-FTA/NAFTA model and focus on sectoral trade pacts and I suspect most of us would be as well or even better off.

And free liberal democracies would survive in Europe without NATO. Europe, after all, is where the Enlightenment took hold. Democracy is as ensconced in countries like France and the UK as in the U.S., and perhaps more so these days in many places. The real problem exists on Europe's periphery, where NATO has expanded into several former Soviet states. Even as NATO members, countries like Poland and Hungary are becoming less open and democratic.

Edited July 3, 2018 by turningrite

[Zeitgeist]

Wow, people need to study the antecedents to Isis.  Many of these problems started back in the mid-20th century when the U.S. backed the Shaw of Iran and later installed Saddam in Iraq, mostly in the name of protecting western oil interests in the Middle East.  Saddam became too powerful and wanted to siphon oil from neighboring countries, so after he screwed with Kuwait, the U.S. and its allies (including Canada) attacked Iraq. That was the Gulf War.  Later on, post 911, NATO countries invaded Afghanistan to uproot the Taliban, who were certainly up to no good. Afterwards, the U.S. and a “Coalition of the Willing” (not including Canada, thankfully) invaded Iraq on the false pretext that it had weapons of mass destruction.  It did not have such weapons. Many of Saddam Hussein’s defeated Baathists later became Isis out of hatred towards the U.S. and a state of displacement.  The orange jumpsuits that Isis put prisoners in is an ironic echo of the orange jumpsuits that Baathist prisoners wore under imprisonment by U.S. coalition forces.  

Moreover, the U.S. added to the problem by ignoring the results of the democratic Iraq election, instead supporting an unelected Shiite leader.  Shiite Iran of course backed this leader and supported the anti-Baathist anti-Sunni atrocities that followed.  The victims of this bloodbath, in large part, became Isis, which then expanded into the north and spread across a destabilized Syria where another strongman leader was facing opposition.  Russia supported the strongman.  The U.S. supported the rebels, creating an opening for ISIS.  Canada, which didn’t participate in the invasion and occupation of Iraq (The Gulf War was not an occupation of Iraq, but rather an attack), has contributed hugely to training police forces in Afghanistan after the invasion of that country and we continue to accept tens of thousands of Syrian refugees, trying to mitigate the damage caused by the U.S. invasion/occupation of and subsequent meddling in Iraq.  The U.S. has accepted very few innocent refugees from Syria.  They've cut and run. 

Edited July 3, 2018 by Zeitgeist

[Zeitgeist]

With regard to NATO, Canada has been increasing its financial and military support for NATO recently.  Trump recognized this.  Dismantling NATO would be a major misstep, playing right into Putin’s hands.  It would be better if Russia joined NATO then to replace it with an organization where aggressive powers like Russia and China would want dominance.  China is trying to dominate the seas beyond its waters.  Russia invaded and annexed the Crimea and is trying to do the same thing in Ukraine.  If you think Putin’s ambitions stop there, look out.  NATO is preventing Russian aggression.

The problem is that Trump is either naive to how he is being manipulated or else he is consenting to it. What’s most foolish about Trump is that, as he attempts to weaken his allies through a trade war and disregarding agreements on climate change and humane immigration policy, he is creating openings for Russia and China.  At some point soon, countries may give up on trying to work with the U.S. under the U.S. led alliance of the past 75 years, and may instead align with China, whose leadership is well aware of its growing role and minding its p’s and q’s while Trump is pissing everyone off. 

Edited July 3, 2018 by Zeitgeist

[Jimwd]

1 hour ago, paxrom said:

Ukraine was caused by european's impotentcy and obama lack of will to fight. His cia director even admitted the russian figures out obama wasn't going to fight back and the european were impotent. 

 

Well if Obama should have fought the Russians what’s stopping trump from driving the Russians from Crimea?

[Jimwd]

1 hour ago, paxrom said:

Yes Europe should increase their own defense and you too canada. I highly doubt they will ever reach a point where they can ask the us to leave. Our near peer adversary, china and russia are only getting more and more powerful. You need us. Look, no one want NATO to go away that would mean the end of free liberal democracy in europe. But at this current rate of ripping american off with trade and asking us to pay the most in defense is unsustainable. 

Yet it was Canadians and other allies sacraficing  their lives fighting the Taliban because YOU were attacked, I can tell you from this day forward I will protest any Canadian involvement in ever helping America again. You did nothing for us and we sacraficed blood for you, look at your response, disgusting .....

[Zeitgeist]

What is Article 5 of the NATO?

The key section of the treaty is Article 5. Its commitment clause defines the casus foederis. It commits each member state to consider an armed attack against one member state, in Europe or North America, to be an armed attack against them all.

 

It was the application of Article 5 that fast-tracked the NATO invasion of Afghanistan after the U.S. was attacked on 911.  God Bless America, Canada, and NATO.