Refugee crisis escalating

[OftenWrong]

59 minutes ago, hot enough said:

Yeah, that's exactly what all the more than 70 countries illegally invaded by the USA think too. Thank god for carpet bombing us, for slaughtering our children, for poisoning our children and our environment, for supplying our kids with cluster bombs to play with, for raping our sons and daughters, for torturing our kith and kin, for stealing our wealth. 

How come the USA isn't at all like any of the bullshit movies that you have been brainwashed by, PIK?

They don't want to rape those guys.

[Guest]

del

Edited August 7, 2017 by bcsapper

[hot enough]

9 minutes ago, Argus said:

The US didn't destroy any of those places. Their own people did. Why is it the far left ALWAYS exempts locals from any responsibility, and always tries to blame the West?

Because it is US terrorism, CIA terrorism against these countries that sets the stage for all these US caused carnages.

Really? Funny how most of the world doesn't do what the US wants then. Funny how most of the third world goes against American interests and votes against them in the UN. If you want to see evil and ruthless corporatations at work look at what Chinese government corporations are doing throughout the third world. But of course, you won't.

Are you incapable of providing any sourcing, info for your contentions, Argus? Par for the course.

Sebastian Mallaby, economics columnist of the Washington Post, reacted sharply to Perkins' book:^[4] describing him as "a conspiracy theorist, a vainglorious peddler of nonsense,  According to Wikipedia. He says the NSA is the one organizing world economic domination but the NSA is a cryptographic intelligence gathering/counter intelligence organization and has no involvement in economics. There's no evidence to support any of his claims.

Gee, you quote a Washington press whore, Argus, defender of the right. No evidence, eh, Argus?

Quote

THE SECRET WARS OF THE CIA:

part I

THE INNER WORKINGS OF THE NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL AND THE CIA'S COVERT ACTIONS IN ANGOLA, CENTRAL AMERICA AND VIETNAM

by John Stockwell

a lecture given in October, 1987

John Stockwell is the highest-ranking CIA official ever to leave the agency and go public. He ran a CIA intelligence-gathering post in Vietnam, was the task-force commander of the CIA's secret war in Angola in 1975 and 1976, and was awarded the Medal of Merit before he resigned. Stockwell's book In Search of Enemies, published by W.W. Norton 1978, is an international best-seller. 

*****

"I did 13 years in the CIA altogether. I sat on a subcommittee of the NSC, so I was like a chief of staff, with the GS-18s (like 3-star generals) Henry Kissinger, Bill Colby (the CIA director), the GS-18s and the CIA, making the important decisions and my job was to put it all together and make it happen and run it, an interesting place from which to watch a covert action being done...

I testified for days before the Congress, giving them chapter and verse, date and detail, proving specific lies. They were asking if we had to do with S. Africa, that was fighting in the country. In fact we were coordinating this operation so closely that our airplanes, full of arms from the states, would meet their airplanes in Kinshasa and they would take our arms into Angola to distribute to our forces for us....

What I found with all of this study is that the subject, the problem, if you will, for the world, for the U.S. is much, much, much graver, astronomically graver, than just Angola and Vietnam. I found that the Senate Church committee has reported, in their study of covert actions, that the CIA ran several thousand covert actions since 1961, and that the heyday of covert action was before 1961; that we have run several hundred covert actions a year, and the CIA has been in business for a total of 37 years.

What we're going to talk about tonight is the United States national security syndrome. We're going to talk about how and why the U.S. manipulates the press. We're going to talk about how and why the U.S. is pouring money into El Salvador, and preparing to invade Nicaragua; how all of this concerns us so directly. I'm going to try to explain to you the other side of terrorism; that is, the other side of what Secretary of State Shultz talks about. In doing this, we'll talk about the Korean war, the Vietnam war, and the Central American war.

Everything I'm going to talk to you about is represented, one way or another, already in the public records. You can dig it all out for yourselves, without coming to hear me if you so chose. Books, based on information gotten out of the CIA under the freedom of information act, testimony before the Congress, hearings before the Senate Church committee, research by scholars, witness of people throughout the world who have been to these target areas that we'll be talking about. I want to emphasize that my own background is profoundly conservative. We come from South Texas, East Texas....

I was conditioned by my training, my marine corps training, and my background, to believe in everything they were saying about the cold war, and I took the job with great enthusiasm (in the CIA) to join the best and the brightest of the CIA, of our foreign service, to go out into the world, to join the struggle, to project American values and save the world for our brand of democracy. And I believed this. I went out and worked hard....

What I really got out of these 6 years in Africa was a sense ... that nothing we were doing in fact defended U.S. national security interests very much. We didn't have many national security interests in Bujumbura, Burundi, in the heart of Africa. I concluded that I just couldn't see the point.

We were doing things it seemed because we were there, because it was our function, we were bribing people, corrupting people, and not protecting the U.S. in any visible way. I had a chance to go drinking with this Larry Devlin, a famous CIA case officer who had overthrown Patrice Lumumba, and had him killed in 1960, back in the Congo. He was moving into the Africa division Chief. I talked to him in Addis Ababa at length one night, and he was giving me an explanation - I was telling him frankly, 'sir, you know, this stuff doesn't make any sense, we're not saving anybody from anything, and we are corrupting people, and everybody knows we're doing it, and that makes the U.S. look bad'.

And he said I was getting too big for my britches. He said, `you're trying to think like the people in the NSC back in Washington who have the big picture, who know what's going on in the world, who have all the secret information, and the experience to digest it. If they decide we should have someone in Bujumbura, Burundi, and that person should be you, then you should do your job, and wait until you have more experience, and you work your way up to that point, then you will understand national security, and you can make the big decisions. Now, get to work, and stop, you know, this philosophizing.'

And I said, `Aye-aye sir, sorry sir, a bit out of line sir'. It's a very powerful argument, our presidents use it on us. President Reagan has used it on the American people, saying, `if you knew what I know about the situation in Central America, you would understand why it's necessary for us to intervene.'

I went back to Washington, however, and I found that others shared my concern. A formal study was done in the State Department and published internally, highly classified, called the Macomber [sp?] report, concluding that the CIA had no business being in Africa for anything it was known to be doing, that our presence there was not justified, there were no national security interests that the CIA could address any better than the ambassador himself. We didn't need to have bribery and corruption as a tool for doing business in Africa at that time.

I went from ... a tour in Washington to Vietnam. And there, my career, and my life, began to get a little bit more serious. They assigned me a country. It was during the cease-fire, '73 to '75. There was no cease-fire. Young men were being slaughtered. I saw a slaughter. 300 young men that the South Vietnamese army ambushed. Their bodies brought in and laid out in a lot next to my compound. I was up-country in Tayninh. They were laid out next door, until the families could come and claim them and take them away for burial.

I thought about this. I had to work with the sadistic police chief. When I reported that he liked to carve people with knives in the CIA safe-house - when I reported this to my bosses, they said, `(1). The post was too important to close down. (2). They weren't going to get the man transferred or fired because that would make problems, political problems, and he was very good at working with us in the operations he worked on. (3). Therefore if I didn't have the stomach for the job, that they could transfer me.'

But they hastened to point out, if I did demonstrate a lack of `moral fiber' to handle working with the sadistic police chief, that I wouldn't get another good job in the CIA, it would be a mark against
my career.

So I kept the job, I closed the safe-house down, I told my staff that I didn't approve of that kind of activity, and I proceeded to work with him for the next 2 years, pretending that I had reformed him, and he didn't do this sort of thing anymore. The parallel is obvious with El Salvador today, where the CIA, the state department, works with the death squads.

They don't meet the death squads on the streets where they're actually chopping up people or laying them down on the street and running trucks over their heads. The CIA people in San Salvador meet the police chiefs, and the people who run the death squads, and they do liaise with them, they meet them beside the swimming pool of the villas. And it's a sophisticated, civilized kind of relationship. And they talk about their children, who are going to school at UCLA or Harvard and other schools, and they don't talk about the horrors of what's being done. They pretend like it isn't true.

What I ran into in addition to that was a corruption in the CIA and the intelligence business that made me question very seriously what it was all about, including what I was doing ... risking my life ... what I found was that the CIA, us, the case officers, were not permitted to report about the corruption in the South Vietnamese army....

Now, the corruption was so bad, that the S. Vietnamese army was a skeleton army. Colonels would let the troops go home if they would come in once a month and sign the pay vouchers so the colonel could pocket the money. Then he could sell half of the uniforms and boots and M-16's to the communist forces - that was their major supply, just as it is in El Salvador today. He could use half of the trucks to haul produce, half of the helicopters to haul heroin.

And the Army couldn't fight. And we lived with it, and we saw it, and there was no doubt - everybody talked about it openly. We could provide all kinds of proof, and they wouldn't let us report it. Now this was a serious problem because the south was attacked in the winter of 1975, and it collapsed like a big vase hit by a sledgehammer. And the U.S. was humiliated, and that was the dramatic end of our long involvement in Vietnam....

I had been designated as the task-force commander that would run this secret war [in Angola in 1975 and 1976].... and what I figured out was that in this job, I would sit on a sub-committee of the National Security Council, this office that Larry Devlin has told me about where they had access to all the information about Angola, about the whole world, and I would finally understand national security. And I couldn't resist the opportunity to know. I knew the CIA was not a worthwhile organization, I had learned that the hard way. But the question was where did the U.S. government fit into this thing, and I had a chance to see for myself in the next big secret war....

I wanted to know if wise men were making difficult decisions based on truly important, threatening information, threatening to our national security interests. If that had been the case, I still planned to get out of the CIA, but I would know that the system, the invisible government, our national security complex, was in fact justified and worth while. And so I took the job.... Suffice it to say I wouldn't be standing in front of you tonight if I had found these wise men making these tough decisions. What I found, quite frankly, was fat old men sleeping through sub-committee meetings of the NSC in which we were making decisions that were killing people in Africa. I mean literally. Senior ambassador Ed Mulcahy... would go to sleep in nearly every one of these meetings....

You can change the names in my book [about Angola] [13] and you've got Nicaragua.... the basic structure, all the way through including the mining of harbors, we addressed all of these issues. The point is that the U.S. led the way at every step of the escalation of the fighting. We said it was the Soviets and the Cubans that were doing it. It was the U.S. that was escalating the fighting. There would have been no war if we hadn't gone in first. We put arms in, they put arms in. We put advisors in, they answered with advisors. We put in Zairian para-commando battalions, they put in Cuban army troops. We brought in the S. African army, they brought in the Cuban army. And
they pushed us away. They blew us away because we were lying, we were covering ourselves with lies, and they were telling the truth. And it was not a war that we could fight. We didn't have interests there that should have been defended that way.

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Stockwell/StockwellCIA87_1.html

 

 

[hot enough]

9 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

They don't want to rape those guys.

More often wrong, more failure to address the actual issues, OftenWrong.

[hot enough]

10 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

It must have been such a relief for the the submaring crew involved.  While all their mates were involved in a real war, with depth charges and other nasty things, they get to go shell Vancouver Island.  I bet they took their time...

It's little wonder why you never learned anything, you were the class clown. 

[taxme]

16 hours ago, hot enough said:

Fer Kerist's sake, the US was raping and pillaging the planet long before Jewish people were accepted in the US. If the US didn't need Israel for propaganda purposes, they would have cut them loose long ago. There are many honest and just Jewish people who resist the war crimes and terrorism of Israel and the US.

 

The Rothchild zionists have been around for centuries. They have always supplied all the money that a country requires to survive on or start wars. Indeed, not all Jews are bad. it is the zionist ones that are the bad boys here. The ordinary Jew like the ordinary gentile is being used by them to help make themselves the rulers of the world. "If you want to know as to who rules the world, ask whom you cannot criticise". 

[OftenWrong]

9 minutes ago, Argus said:

The US didn't destroy any of those places. Their own people did. Why is it the far left ALWAYS exempts locals from any responsibility, and always tries to blame the West?

I'm starting to think they are part of an agenda to undermine the west, conducted by our enemies. The left has been taken over by an outside adversary that seeks to destabilize our society, by media/ propaganda disinformation campaigns and these people here have been duped into believing it. To the point that they hate the very fabric of our free and fair society.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, hot enough said:

It's little wonder why you never learned anything, you were the class clown. 

You're a bitter man, hot enough.  You're going to give yourself an ulcer...

[hot enough]

17 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

...and millions upon millions of immigrants...legal and illegal...from all over the world.

USA is #1 for immigrants don'tcha know ?

We know already. Immigrants fleeing US war crimes, US terrorism, US raping, US ... . 

How come an avid war criminal/terrorist lover like you doesn't want to share your war crimes, your terrorist acts, your involvement in the carnage? You love the US caused carnage. Or have you been limited to computer war crimes?

[Hal 9000]

18 minutes ago, hot enough said:

That's the big lie, that's the huge moral conundrum. What you are saying is that "yeah, had the Germans won, I would be totally comfortable with hunting down any Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals, and other Nazi deemed undesirables and shipping them off to Death Camps". 

You believe that the US government did 911 and you are comfortable with that? Is that why you offer such tepid involvement?

I haven't said that at all.  Why does every discussion come down to Nazis and 911?

If I have to choose between Islam, sharia and the middle east or USA, Christianity and western democracy, I will choose the latter - unapologetically.

[Omni]

1 minute ago, bcsapper said:

You're a bitter man, hot enough.  You're going to give yourself an ulcer...

I say it's excessive inhalation of the "nano thermite pixie dust" as b_c described.

[hot enough]

10 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

You're a bitter man, hot enough.  You're going to give yourself an ulcer...

You're an evil man, bcsapper, avidly supporting such deep evil. Are Tony Blair and the other UK war criminals your heroes? Do you delight in their evil like b_c delights in US evil?

[capricorn]

4 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

I'm starting to think they are part of an agenda to undermine the west, conducted by our enemies. The left has been taken over by an outside adversary that seeks to destabilize our society, by media/ propaganda disinformation campaigns and these people here have been duped into believing it. To the point that they hate the very fabric of our free and fair society.

It has come to the point it's almost impossible for rational MLW members to have logical exchanges with the likes of some of those posters. Every thread is being hijacked.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, hot enough said:

You're an evil man, bcsapper, avidly supporting such deep evil. Are Tony Blair and the other UK war criminals your heroes? Do you delight in their evil like b_c delights in US evil?

Kale and broccoli he.  Oh, and green tea.

[Argus]

Just now, capricorn said:

It has come to the point it's almost impossible for rational MLW members to have logical exchanges with the likes of some of those posters. Every thread is being hijacked.

That's what the ignore feature is for.

[capricorn]

Just now, Argus said:

That's what the ignore feature is for.

I have a few on ignore, but when other members respond to their posts they are quoted even though on ignore. In addition, it shuts down input that could be helpful understanding different points of view.

[bush_cheney2004]

4 minutes ago, hot enough said:

We know already.

 

Did you think nonsense stories about nano thermite pixie dust would keep millions upon millions of immigrants from voting with their feet for the "evil" USA ?

 

[hot enough]

10 minutes ago, Hal 9000 said:

I haven't said that at all.  Why does every discussion come down to Nazis and 911?

Because you have chosen an evil that is equivalent to the Nazis. Because 911 is an integral part of the world situation. Because, you seem to believe that the US was involved in the events of 911 but your loyalties prevent you from being candid. Is that honest to your mind?

Quote

If I have to choose between Islam, sharia and the middle east or USA, Christianity and western democracy, I will choose the latter - unapologetically.

That's not the choice at all. The choice is simply, why support an evil that is the equal of the Nazis? Let other countries alone, Stop stealing their wealth and killing their people. It's that simple. Don't try to suggest that it has been the US trying to save the oppressed for you all know that is the rankest of nonsensical propaganda. 

[Guest]

Just now, capricorn said:

I have a few on ignore, but when other members respond to their posts they are quoted even though on ignore. In addition, it shuts down input that could be helpful understanding different points of view.

Cuts down on the laughs, too.

[Argus]

8 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

I'm starting to think they are part of an agenda to undermine the west, conducted by our enemies. The left has been taken over by an outside adversary that seeks to destabilize our society, by media/ propaganda disinformation campaigns and these people here have been duped into believing it. To the point that they hate the very fabric of our free and fair society.

They're not alone, unfortunately. The far right is active in the same way, filled with paranoid and delusional wack jobs who painstakingly string together bits and pieces of information to come out with ludicrous conspiracy theories.

If you want to have some fun sometime, go to Youtube and look up sovereign citizen videos. What you'll find is a bunch of total loser idiots in confrontations with the police, usually over traffic issues. They mostly go something like this.

Idiot rolls down car window a few inches.

Cops tells him to roll the window down.

Idiot refuses, saying he doesn't have to. And asks "Am I being arrested"?

Cop tells him repeatedly to roll down the window while asking for license.

Idiot says "I'm a independent being and not subject to your laws based on this gibberish crap I read on the internet.

Cops breaks window and drags idiot out to throw them on the ground and handcuff them.

 

[hot enough]

15 minutes ago, Omni said:

I say it's excessive inhalation of the "nano thermite pixie dust" as b_c described.

More Omni juvenile fabrications/prevarications.

[Argus]

1 minute ago, capricorn said:

I have a few on ignore, but when other members respond to their posts they are quoted even though on ignore. In addition, it shuts down input that could be helpful understanding different points of view.

I do keep some of them off my ignore list, but the real idiots who are simply one trick ponies and who you cannot hold any kind of intelligent conversation with are simply not worth reading or responding to.

[hot enough]

9 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

Cuts down on the laughs, too.

Yeah, let's all have a big chuckle about the US/UK genocide of a million Iraqi children. We're all such fine, upstanding, moral folks here!

[Hal 9000]

2 minutes ago, hot enough said:

Because you have chosen an evil that is equivalent to the Nazis. Because 911 is an integral part of the world situation. Because, you seem to believe that the US was involved in the events of 911 but your loyalties prevent you from being candid. Is that honest to your mind?

Just an indifference I suppose.

[hot enough]

12 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Did you think nonsense stories about nano thermite pixie dust would keep millions upon millions of immigrants from voting with their feet for the "evil" USA ?

 

You do realize that you are flat out lying. But that is hardly comes as any surprise for a lover of child killers.