Venezuela??

[betsy]

Okay Cannuck.....sorry about contributing to the derailment of your topic.  

 

Back to Venezuela......

Quote

Cannuck

Why is it that nobody has posted about the problems in Venezuela?   It certainly is a prominent and very political issue.

My guess is that the abject failure of the Bolivarian Revolution hits too close to home for the left in Canada.

 

 

 

Edited August 10, 2017 by betsy

[hot enough]

10 hours ago, betsy said:

In other words, ignorance is behind your stance.  That's what you're saying here.

So.....why should you be taken seriously?

Ignorance is behind all your stances, Betsy. All you do is mouth memes garnered from wacky right wing websites. You also illustrate your ignorance by your total refusal to look at the truth. 

[hot enough]

On 8/8/2017 at 4:27 PM, cannuck said:

Just because the US has done, and probably will do some very bad things, that does not make their system of governance and democracy bad, it makes the people who have abused it bad.   The SAME thing applies to socialism:  the theory is great, but because of the same thing - GREED - it works far worse than the US or Euro version of capitalistic democracies simply because it facilitates centralization of political and economic power that can result in the destruction of vibrant economies or millions of lives.

It is not the ideology that is wrong, it is people that are bad.

Again, your theory does not match the facts. The reason that socialist/communist governments have not worked is because the USA spent billions, slaughtered tens of millions destroying those types of countries. Even Saddam Hussein's Iraq was a successful ME country. Compare it to what it is now that the USA has destroyed it. 

The argument that the USA has done some bad is specious as hell. All it does is bad, you and yours just don't happen to be the recipients of US bringing you democracy. Had the US supported Vietnam's independence, like its principles say it should, there never would have been a war. Ho Chi Minh was not a communist. He said that he would BECOME whatever he needed to become to gain Vietnam's independence. When the USA showed no interest in allowing the Vietnam people their freedom of course that is what they chose.

The US doesn't do democracy because that means that US business won't be able to freely rape and pillage. US businesses would have to, perish the thought for the world's capitalists, compete!

You cannot be so naive as to think that the US CIA has not been working full time creating havoc, which really means TERRORISM, in Venezuela since forever. The US's history in Latin America screams this, it has been over a century of US terrorism against every Latin American country.

Hell, the US stole land from Colombia to create Panama!

Edited August 10, 2017 by hot enough

[Ash74]

1 hour ago, hot enough said:

Again, your theory does not match the facts. The reason that socialist/communist governments have not worked is because the USA spent billions, slaughtered tens of millions destroying those types of countries. Even Saddam Hussein's Iraq was a successful ME country. Compare it to what it is now that the USA has destroyed it. 

The argument that the USA has done some bad is specious as hell. All it does is bad, you and yours just don't happen to be the recipients of US bringing you democracy. Had the US supported Vietnam's independence, like its principles say it should, there never would have been a war. Ho Chi Minh was not a communist. He said that he would BECOME whatever he needed to become to gain Vietnam's independence. When the USA showed no interest in allowing the Vietnam people their freedom of course that is what they chose.

The US doesn't do democracy because that means that US business won't be able to freely rape and pillage. US businesses would have to, perish the thought for the world's capitalists, compete!

You cannot be so naive as to think that the US CIA has not been working full time creating havoc, which really means TERRORISM, in Venezuela since forever. The US's history in Latin America screams this, it has been over a century of US terrorism against every Latin American country.

Hell, the US stole land from Colombia to create Panama!

Your leaving out a ridiculous amount of details in your rantings.

Vietnam was a stumbled on mistake you are very much correct because of France. They were there first and pretty much left the US. Holding the bag. In to deep to get out and embarrassed to be there.

Think Breexit was part of a capitalist plot? Every banker and investor were shaking their heads on that one. That was a choice by democracy. 

Venezuela is a combination of socialism and what happens when the talented leave. CIA doesn't have to do anything there. Just sit back and watch. Oil refinery plants are running at 50% while employing 3 times the workers before being nationalized but that is America's fault to I guess.

Nationalized grocery stores for trying to sell bread at cost and not the state controlled prices while the military steals the food and sells it to the black market. Yup all the fault of the US. 

[betsy]

6 hours ago, Ash74 said:

Your leaving out a ridiculous amount of details in your rantings.

Vietnam was a stumbled on mistake you are very much correct because of France. They were there first and pretty much left the US. Holding the bag. In to deep to get out and embarrassed to be there.

Think Breexit was part of a capitalist plot? Every banker and investor were shaking their heads on that one. That was a choice by democracy. 

Venezuela is a combination of socialism and what happens when the talented leave. CIA doesn't have to do anything there. Just sit back and watch. Oil refinery plants are running at 50% while employing 3 times the workers before being nationalized but that is America's fault to I guess.

Nationalized grocery stores for trying to sell bread at cost and not the state controlled prices while the military steals the food and sells it to the black market. Yup all the fault of the US. 

Bang-on!

Venezuela is the latest casualty of socialism. 

 

 

 

Edited August 10, 2017 by betsy

[hot enough]

21 hours ago, Ash74 said:

Your leaving out a ridiculous amount of details in your rantings.

Vietnam was a stumbled on mistake you are very much correct because of France. They were there first and pretty much left the US. Holding the bag. In to deep to get out and embarrassed to be there.

You do not know of what you speak. You are so out to lunch, it isn't even funny. The US/Eisenhower knew that Ho Chi Minh would win the planned elections with 80 to 90% of the vote. The US entered WWII because they saw a tremendous opportunity to steal all the European colonies for themselves.

Think Breexit was part of a capitalist plot? Every banker and investor were shaking their heads on that one. That was a choice by democracy. 

Nothing to do with anything. A pretense from you to make you appear informed.

Venezuela is a combination of socialism and what happens when the talented leave. CIA doesn't have to do anything there. Just sit back and watch. Oil refinery plants are running at 50% while employing 3 times the workers before being nationalized but that is America's fault to I guess.

Nationalized grocery stores for trying to sell bread at cost and not the state controlled prices while the military steals the food and sells it to the black market. Yup all the fault of the US. S

To deny that the USA/CIA has not been totally involved, as they have been in every Latin American country since 1898 reveals an incredible level of ignorance. Vietnam and China are communist because they need to maintain strict control or the US/CIA would be in there subverting the governments again, as they have done in the past. China knows how evil the US is for the US was in China, raping and pillaging with all the European countries, when it should have been, from its own fake history, pushing for independence and freedom for China and SE Asian countries from all these European colonial powers.

Do you ever recall the US ever telling colonial powers to grant freedom to anyone. Of course not, that is a ludicrous notion, the US encouraging that the poor countries of the world should have freedom. Such rank hypocrisy on the US's part, doncha figger? 

 

 

Edited August 11, 2017 by hot enough

[hot enough]

9 hours ago, betsy said:

Bang-on!

Venezuela is the latest casualty of socialism. 

I'm always amazed at your keen sense of history and politics, Betsy. How can you cover things so well in two short sentences? Who do you work for, the New York Times, Fox News, ... ?

[-TSS-]

How do you know socialists have seized power in the Sahara? There is a sudden shortage of sand.

[cannuck]

23 hours ago, hot enough said:

Again, your theory does not match the facts. The reason that socialist/communist governments have not worked is because the USA spent billions, slaughtered tens of millions destroying those types of countries. Even Saddam Hussein's Iraq was a successful ME country. Compare it to what it is now that the USA has destroyed it. 

The argument that the USA has done some bad is specious as hell. All it does is bad, you and yours just don't happen to be the recipients of US bringing you democracy. Had the US supported Vietnam's independence, like its principles say it should, there never would have been a war. Ho Chi Minh was not a communist. He said that he would BECOME whatever he needed to become to gain Vietnam's independence. When the USA showed no interest in allowing the Vietnam people their freedom of course that is what they chose.

The US doesn't do democracy because that means that US business won't be able to freely rape and pillage. US businesses would have to, perish the thought for the world's capitalists, compete!

You cannot be so naive as to think that the US CIA has not been working full time creating havoc, which really means TERRORISM, in Venezuela since forever. The US's history in Latin America screams this, it has been over a century of US terrorism against every Latin American country.

Hell, the US stole land from Colombia to create Panama!

Again, I don't disagree with some of what you say about the USA (except the "all bad" part), but lets face the facts:  Venezuela under the Bolivar Revolution - collapsed economy, collapse of human rights, collapse of order.   Venezuela while being manipulated by the nasty capitalist pigs - wealthy, stable, great and safe place to live.

BTW:  SoDamnInsane was kept in power by the US...so let's not go there.  So was Daffy Duck.

China workers' paradise under Mao - no Yankee manipulation there, they backed the Nationalists - a hundred million starved to death with the state took over the means of agriculture production.  China embracing the dirty capitalist pig ways under Four Pillars of Modern Reform - biggest success story in history.

Edited August 11, 2017 by cannuck

[hot enough]

9 minutes ago, cannuck said:

Again, I don't disagree with some of what you say about the USA (except the "all bad" part), but lets face the facts:

BTW:  SoDamnInsane was kept in power by the US...so let's not go there.  So was Daffy Duck.

 Yes, let's do face the facts. Why do you malign good friends of the USA?

"What I found with all of this study is that the subject, the problem, if you will, for the world, for the U.S. is much, much, much graver, astronomically graver, than just Angola and Vietnam. I found that the Senate Church committee has reported, in their study of covert actions, that the CIA ran several thousand covert actions since 1961, and that the heyday of covert action was before 1961; that we have run several hundred covert actions a year, and the CIA has been in business for a total of 37 years." John Stockwell 

Do you see some good in this?

 

Quote

Venezuela under the Bolivar Revolution - collapsed economy, collapse of human rights, collapse of order.   Venezuela while being manipulated by the nasty capitalist pigs - wealthy, stable, great and safe place to live.

Many economies collapse. US economies collapse frequently and their huge economic crimes help bring down the world economy. We are still in the shit of the US caused 2008 collapse. 

[cannuck]

23 minutes ago, hot enough said:

 Yes, let's do face the facts. Why do you malign good friends of the USA?

"What I found with all of this study is that the subject, the problem, if you will, for the world, for the U.S. is much, much, much graver, astronomically graver, than just Angola and Vietnam. I found that the Senate Church committee has reported, in their study of covert actions, that the CIA ran several thousand covert actions since 1961, and that the heyday of covert action was before 1961; that we have run several hundred covert actions a year, and the CIA has been in business for a total of 37 years." John Stockwell 

Do you see some good in this?

 

Many economies collapse. US economies collapse frequently and their huge economic crimes help bring down the world economy. We are still in the shit of the US caused 2008 collapse. 

As I said:  not going to appologize for what the PEOPLE who have taken power in the US did.   What they do and did is NOT based on what the US form of government and economy is intended to be.

As to the 2008 deal, and the 1929 deal: these are NOT unique to the US - it is just that the US Fed is the ONLY central bank owned by its member banks (and just think carefully about who actually controls them).  THE WHOLE FRIGGING WORLD has become so greedy that they are ALL happy to let redistribution of wealth by speculative gain (heavily manipulated) become the defacto economy, rather than the one in which wealth is actually created (i.e. by actually MAKING something, or doing something to support productive activity).   What is unique about the US is that by owning the central bank, the member banks can simply increase the money supply, stuff the bux into their own back pockets, and pass the bill on to the citizens of the US (mostly in the form of pent-up inflationary forces).  As long as the Greenback maintains hegamony, it will not inflate and devalue as doing so wipes out the US denominated holdings AND INSTRUMENTS of all of the other central and commercial banks of the world.

PLEASE, do not blame the sins of Wall Street and the Beltway on the people and Constitution of the USA..

On edit:   ALSO, remember that the USSR maintained tit-for-tat covert activities by the KGB.   Again, these things are NOT in any way related to the system of government in either country, but please do take note that of the two superpowers, one died because i did NOT have the privilege of benefiting from the productivity of a capitalistic economy.

Edited August 11, 2017 by cannuck

[hot enough]

1 hour ago, cannuck said:

As I said:  not going to appologize for what the PEOPLE who have taken power in the US did.   What they do and did is NOT based on what the US form of government and economy is intended to be.

Intent means nothing when it has always been a total fustercluck. The US people in government and the vast majority of the US people have always supported this centuries long, continuous evil. 

The propaganda says the US is a force for good but it is not supported by history. The propaganda says the US is kind and benevolent but the facts don't support this at all. The US is the stingiest nation in the world.   

As to the 2008 deal, and the 1929 deal: these are NOT .unique to the US -

The 2008 deal and 1929 and the Panic of 1873 and all the others are all US caused economic depressions. 

Quote

 

There have been as many as 47 recessions in the United States dating back to the Articles of Confederation, and although economists and historians dispute certain 19th-century recessions,[1] the consensus view among economists and historians is that "The cyclical volatility of GNP and unemployment was greater before the Great Depression than it has been since the end of World War II."[2] Cycles in the country's agriculture, consumption, and business investment, and the health of the banking industry contribute to these declines. U.S. recessions have increasingly affected economies on a worldwide scale, especially as countries' economies become more intertwined.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_recessions_in_the_United_States

 

it is just that the US Fed is the ONLY central bank owned by its member banks (and just think carefully about who actually controls them).  THE WHOLE FRIGGING WORLD has become so greedy that they are ALL happy to let redistribution of wealth by speculative gain (heavily manipulated) become the defacto economy, rather than the one in which wealth is actually created (i.e. by actually MAKING something, or doing something to support productive activity).   What is unique about the US is that by owning the central bank, the member banks can simply increase the money supply, stuff the bux into their own back pockets, and pass the bill on to the citizens of the US (mostly in the form of pent-up inflationary forces).  As long as the Greenback maintains hegamony, it will not inflate and devalue as doing so wipes out the US denominated holdings AND INSTRUMENTS of all of the other central and commercial banks of the world.

 

You've just described US monetary terrorism. So there is nothing here either that makes the US a great, even good nation. It has used its economic power as a terrorist tool as much as it has used its military as a war criminal/terrorist tool. What kind of a nation is one that has been in a state of war for 90 plus percent of its years as a country.

PLEASE, do not blame the sins of Wall Street and the Beltway on the people and Constitution of the USA..

It's supposed to be government of the people, by the people, for the people. These are the very people that have cheered their governments on in the 90 plus percent of its years as a country state of war, virtually all of those custom made to steal the wealth of the world's poor.

As for the constitution, it was a farce invented by terrorists who only wanted to replace the Brits collecting the wealth with themselves collecting the wealth and they duped a lot of people into thinking it was for them.  

 

Edited August 11, 2017 by hot enough

[bush_cheney2004]

Venezuelan nationals are seeking asylum in the U.S. in record numbers.  

The United States has long been the #1 choice for legal and Illegal emigres from around the world...it's not even close.

 

 

http://money.cnn.com/2017/05/23/news/economy/venezuela-us-asylum-refugees/index.html

[cannuck]

29 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Venezuelan nationals are seeking asylum in the U.S. in record numbers.  

The United States has long been the #1 choice for legal and Illegal emigres from around the world...it's not even close.

You must be mistaken.  Who of the enlightened socialist country that has benefited so much from the Eutopian  Bolivarian Revolution would possibly want to flee to the capitalist pig cesspool of the USA???   Next thing you know, you will be trying to tell us that CUBANS want in too.   And this coming from a country that almost elected Bernie.

[betsy]

7 hours ago, cannuck said:

You must be mistaken.  Who of the enlightened socialist country that has benefited so much from the Eutopian  Bolivarian Revolution would possibly want to flee to the capitalist pig cesspool of the USA???   Next thing you know, you will be trying to tell us that CUBANS want in too.   And this coming from a country that almost elected Bernie.

It's in the news. 

http://money.cnn.com/2017/05/23/news/economy/venezuela-us-asylum-refugees/index.html

 

So-called "cesspool" or not........people  know where to go for hope, and a  good life.   People are not all dumb. 

Heck, compared to all the socialist countries around - those that have not toppled yet - the USA is utopia! 

Yeah, it's in danger of becoming one.  It isn't only Bernie.  Clinton, is, too.   The difference is that Bernie wears his on his sleeves.     He's not hiding it.  The socialist mentality is everywhere.  Most liberals now are socialist-bent. 

Anyone who wants the government to go beyond what is expected in caring for them and their needs, and to make decisions for them, is a socialist.  In a socialist society, the government has full control - so, it is  attractive  to leaders like Clinton.

 

All  socialist countries are  a house of cards.  

Edited August 11, 2017 by betsy

[cannuck]

There is a HUGE difference between what is socialist policy and programme vs. what is Marxist socialism.  One of the big problems in the US, is that nobody seems to know the difference.

Things that SHOULD be done by government - i.e. social services - the US seems to think is business.   This would in particular include sick care.  Where the US is different from EVERY other G7 nation is that it can't delivery sick care, nor health care effectively as a government programme.  Thus, the highest cause of bankupcy is paying for sick care whose costs are doubled (at least) because the US also lets the legal and insurance business use sick care as a piggy bank.   So, in that manner, the US is short on social policy, but is in other ways very socialistic (as is ANY country), but definitely short on Marxist versions of the state owning the means to production (excluding the obvious exceptions of the BLM, TVA, Corps of Engineers, etc.).

Now Bernie is a socialist fruitcake in some of his policies, but to his credit, he is the ONLY person inside the beltway who seems to appreciate just how wrong a speculative economy run by and for the member banks of the Fed really is.  What is common between Marxist socialism and Casino Capitalism is that the function of the controlling body is to redistribute wealth according to the interest of those who in a position to dispense privilege.  In spite of what BOTH claim in theory, in fact the only beneficiaries are a very few people who control privilege of access.  In both cases, 100% at a cost borne by the citizens.   In other words: neither work.

Nations don't fail because of socialism in public policy, they fail because control of the resources are lost to the people.

Reality is:  Marxist socialism fails EVERY TIME because the people are still required to DO something to produce, and if they do not have some expectation of owning and controlling their destiny, they simply will NOT do anything effectively (ask USSR, ask Mao's China.....geez, as Chavez family and Maduro)    The difference is that in the US, the population FEELS as if it has control and actually IS still able to own the means of production (albeit increasingly at the pleasure of the banksters), so they are still to some extent productive...and that is what it takes to keep your head above water (although at $20T in public debt with massively inflated money supply, that is pretty shakey in the US).

AND: Betsy is very correct - Bernie at least wears it on his sleeve (as does The Donald).   IMHO: the perfect combination to save the US from certain disaster would be a Trump presidency with a Bernie VP in charge of financial regulation.

Edited August 11, 2017 by cannuck

[betsy]

1 hour ago, cannuck said:

There is a HUGE difference between what is socialist policy and programme vs. what is Marxist socialism.  One of the big problems in the US, is that nobody seems to know the difference.

 

 Not much difference, really. 

Socialist policies/programme  are the steps to becoming full-pledged socialist.   People like Clinton though, wouldn't dare call them "socialist programmes."  People are led down that socialist path much like children were led by the tunes of the Pied Piper.  For a lot of us.....health care, is that tune.

  Who doesn't want to get free healthcare?  But.....nothing comes free, really.  There's always a trade off.

 

In the end, only a handful has all the power - and wealth.   And when someone has full control - having that  kind of power - boy, now we're talking about places like China, and Soviet Union, and Venezuela.

 

 

 

Edited August 11, 2017 by betsy

[hot enough]

13 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Venezuelan nationals are seeking asylum in the U.S. in record numbers.  

The United States has long been the #1 choice for legal and Illegal emigres from around the world...it's not even close.

You keep on with the same old meme, totally ignoring the deep evil of the US, the war crimes, the baby slaughters, all the things you love and delight in seeing done. 

"and the threat of western colonialism", this is one of the major reasons people flee their homelands, because the US is murdering them there. 

You totally ignore reality which is what rank propagandists do, which is what you are. 

Arrival of Chinese in 1858 
The first wave of Chinese came to Canada in 1858 to pan for gold in British Columbia. Most of these migrants were young, landless, illiterate men from the province of Guangdong in southern China. They were drawn by the lure of “gold fever” as much as they were escaping harsh conditions in China such as famine, internal rebellions, population pressures and the threat of Western colonialism.

[hot enough]

5 hours ago, betsy said:

Heck, compared to all the socialist countries around - those that have not toppled yet - the USA is utopia! 

The US, having stolen vast sums of wealth from most of the world is a relatively safe place. 'Utopia", pure crap, more like a poorly run dystopia. The country is beautiful, the governments are all war criminal/terrorist gangsters. What kind of a "christian" are you, Betsy?

[bush_cheney2004]

1 hour ago, hot enough said:

You keep on with the same old meme

 

And so do the world's immigrants, voting with their feet for the same old USA just as they have always done.

 

[hot enough]

11 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

And so do the world's immigrants, voting with their feet for the same old USA just as they have always done.

 

You don't understand the word 'meme'. You don't understand a lot.

What you post are memes, mixed with much rabid support for all things evil. How come you have abandoned showing your deep love for US evil in favor of rank propaganda?

[bush_cheney2004]

1 minute ago, hot enough said:

You don't understand the word 'meme'. You don't understand a lot.

 

..and you don't understand millions of immigrants, voting for the USA with their feet.

Please stand at the border and tell all the fleeing Venezuelans about the "nano thermite" as they laugh in your face.

[hot enough]

12 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

about the "nano thermite" as they laugh in your face.

Another stark admission, one of many many, that you are absolutely capable of denying reality. 

[bush_cheney2004]

Just now, hot enough said:

Another stark admission, one of many many, that you are absolutely capable of denying reality. 

 

Your reality has always lost to my reality....and it always will.

[hot enough]

I have been talking a bit of late of the incredible level of delusional behavior that goes on here among so many of MLW members. Much information has been put forward from myriad US and other credible sources of how deeply the CIA/NSA/US government is involved in terrorist actions around the globe against so many countries. 

Even with all these facts, not just from all the other sources, everyone can, and should be able to see for themselves all the illegal invasions, the war crimes, the terrorism the US engages in daily against the world. 

https://www.counterpunch.org/2007/11/28/cia-venezuela-destabilization-memo-surfaces/

NOVEMBER 28, 2007

CIA Venezuela Destabilization Memo Surfaces

by JAMES PETRAS

On November 26, 2007 the Venezuelan government broadcast and circulated a confidential memo from the US embassy to the CIA which is devastatingly revealing of US clandestine operations and which will influence the referendum this Sunday, December 2, 2007.

The memo sent by an embassy official, Michael Middleton Steere, was addressed to the Director of Central Intelligence, Michael Hayden. The memo was entitled ‘Advancing to the Last Phase of Operation Pincer’ and updates the activity by a CIA unit with the acronym ‘HUMINT’ (Human Intelligence) which is engaged in clandestine action to destabilize the forth-coming referendum and coordinate the civil military overthrow of the elected Chavez government. The Embassy-CIA’s polls concede that 57 per cent of the voters approved of the constitutional amendments proposed by Chavez but also predicted a 60 per cent abstention.

The US operatives emphasized their capacity to recruit former Chavez supporters among the social democrats (PODEMOS) and the former Minister of Defense Baduel, claiming to have reduced the ‘yes’ vote by 6 per cent from its original margin. Nevertheless the Embassy operatives concede that they have reached their ceiling, recognizing they cannot defeat the amendments via the electoral route.

The memo then recommends that Operation Pincer (OP) [Operación Tenaza] be operationalized. OP involves a two-pronged strategy of impeding the referendum, rejecting the outcome at the same time as calling for a ‘no’ vote. The run up to the referendum includes running phony polls, attacking electoral officials and running propaganda through the private media accusing the government of fraud and calling for a ‘no’ vote. Contradictions, the report emphasizes, are of no matter.