Guest Posted October 30, 2017 Report Share Posted October 30, 2017 19 minutes ago, eyeball said: Yes well, despite all its claims to the contrary it's patently obvious your crowd has the same sense of responsibility and lack thereof as its constituents. You are what you eat. I guess you're working secretly from within to change it all. Well, good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted October 30, 2017 Report Share Posted October 30, 2017 1 minute ago, bcsapper said: I guess you're working secretly from within to change it all. Well, good luck. Somebody has to be the responsible one and I'll pass on the secrecy thanks, that's a huge part of how we got into in this mess in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 30, 2017 Report Share Posted October 30, 2017 1 minute ago, eyeball said: Somebody has to be the responsible one and I'll pass on the secrecy thanks, that's a huge part of how we got into in this mess in the first place. Well, other than voting, which I knew about, what's your secret method? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted October 30, 2017 Report Share Posted October 30, 2017 12 minutes ago, bcsapper said: Well, other than voting, which I knew about, what's your secret method? Rubbing people's noses in their shit and not voting for Liberals or Conservative politicians. Please note however that I'm still responsible for their actions whether I voted for them or not. If you recall we're still represented by our representative even if we didn't vote for them - that once elected they work for all of us, this is something people often like to point out when discussing the irresponsibility of not voting. Of course I have to allow for the possibility that we're using radically different definitions for the term responsibility. You see a lot of that these days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 30, 2017 Report Share Posted October 30, 2017 1 minute ago, eyeball said: Rubbing people's noses in their shit and not voting for Liberals or Conservative politicians. Please note however that I'm still responsible for their actions whether I voted for them or not. If you recall we're still represented by our representative even if we didn't vote for them - that once elected they work for all of us, this is something people often like to point out when discussing the irresponsibility of not voting. Of course I have to allow for the possibility that we're using radically different definitions for the term responsibility. You see a lot of that these days. I use the dictionary definition that comes up when I Google it. And, as a responsible citizen, I have to accept the results of the democratic process. Anything else would be anarchy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted October 30, 2017 Report Share Posted October 30, 2017 4 minutes ago, bcsapper said: I use the dictionary definition that comes up when I Google it. And, as a responsible citizen, I have to accept the results of the democratic process. Anything else would be anarchy! How does this get you off the hook when the government - the result of the democratic process you participated in - commits a crime? If there is a limit to our liability then shouldn't Khadr's compensation be paid by the people responsible for his maltreatment? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 30, 2017 Report Share Posted October 30, 2017 3 minutes ago, eyeball said: How does this get you off the hook when the government - the result of the democratic process you participated in - commits a crime? If there is a limit to our liability then shouldn't Khadr's compensation be paid by the people responsible for his maltreatment? Same reason I'm off the hook if my wife commits a crime. I might support her, but not her alter ego. As for Khadr, sure, if you can swing it. Of course, I wouldn't give him the time of day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted October 30, 2017 Report Share Posted October 30, 2017 (edited) 14 minutes ago, bcsapper said: Same reason I'm off the hook if my wife commits a crime. I might support her, but not her alter ego. You'd be responsible if you drove your wife to the scene of her crime - the democratic process is no different. Your answer merely underscores the point of my asking that; if our liability is limited then why aren't the people responsible for maltreating Khadr paying his compensation? How did they manage to dump their responsibility onto us? Quote As for Khadr, sure, if you can swing it. Of course, I wouldn't give him the time of day. And yet here you are giving him your money. Edited October 30, 2017 by eyeball Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 30, 2017 Report Share Posted October 30, 2017 2 minutes ago, eyeball said: You'd be responsible if you drove your wife to the scene of her crime - the democratic process is no different. Your answer merely underscores the point of my asking that; if our liability is limited then why aren't the people responsible for maltreating Khadr paying his compensation? How did they manage to dump their responsibility onto us? And yet here you are giving him your money. I'm not. Someone else is, and that underscores my point. I have no control over what they spend my taxes on. As for my wife, she has her own car. I merely contribute to the account where she got the money to buy it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PIK Posted October 30, 2017 Report Share Posted October 30, 2017 What scares me is how trudeau made the point of all canadians will pay when this happens. I guess we might as well scrap all intel groups ,since this precedent has been set. Nobody will be able to do their job properly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonam Posted October 30, 2017 Report Share Posted October 30, 2017 3 hours ago, eyeball said: White guilt? I would have sworn you were smarter than that, oh well. You must subscribe to this new right-wing notion that free citizens in a democracy are no longer accountable for the actions of their government. So much for the myth of the responsible conservative. Democracy? Idiocracy, more like it. And yes, people are responsible for their own actions (and perhaps those of their young children), but no one else's. Moreover, taking money from citizens does not spur politicians to change their actions, since its not the politician's money. If you want to see politicians start to care about the consequences of their actions, you have to go after the politicians themselves, not the taxpayers. That means jail time, or at least personal financial fines, against politicians who commit wrongdoing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted October 30, 2017 Report Share Posted October 30, 2017 2 hours ago, Bonam said: If you want to see politicians start to care about the consequences of their actions, you have to go after the politicians themselves, not the taxpayers. You've been around here long enough to know I've been advocating we do just that for years. You also know how often the sort of people now whining about not being responsible for the actions of their politicians are also the biggest obstacles to creating the conditions that would make it virtually impossible for politicians to step out of line. Souveillance...body-cams... that doesn't ring a bell? How about all the times I've suggested we require a supermajority vote before sending combat troops abroad...that draws a blank too? In light of all the times I've been led to believe otherwise I'm rather gob-smacked how many right-wing conservatives are now coming out and denying that any of us are responsible for the actions of the governments we elect. I guess this is what happens when people become so determined to evade the application of a principle - just pretend it never existed. Of course I doubt this will keep any of you from saying that people in dictatorships are responsible for the actions of their governments but that's the sort of consistency one can always count on right-wing conservatives for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted October 30, 2017 Report Share Posted October 30, 2017 4 hours ago, bcsapper said: I'm not. Someone else is, and that underscores my point. I have no control over what they spend my taxes on. Hey I get it, your hands are clean. Your halo is as pure as it is blinding. Quote As for my wife, she has her own car. I merely contribute to the account where she got the money to buy it. Well, if she used her car in a terror attack you'd stand a good chance of being scooped up in the dragnet the government uses to find her network of terror. If you were Muslim you'd stand a better chance of being sent to Syria for further questioning. Then you'd be back sueing me for millions of dollars. Or would you man up and claim I had no responsibility to compensate you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OftenWrong Posted October 30, 2017 Report Share Posted October 30, 2017 2 hours ago, Bonam said: If you want to see politicians start to care about the consequences of their actions, you have to go after the politicians themselves, not the taxpayers. That means jail time, or at least personal financial fines, against politicians who commit wrongdoing. That would be a good democratic model, if it ever could exist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted October 30, 2017 Report Share Posted October 30, 2017 14 minutes ago, OftenWrong said: That would be a good democratic model, if it ever could exist. I gave some suggestions, let's hear yours. I really don't think we need to do anything to change the system other than to apply the same easily obtainable off-the-shelf technology the government uses to surveil us and use it to souveil it. And now the bleating about why we can't do that will begin. We've been down this road many many times around here. Like I said, what do you suggest? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OftenWrong Posted October 30, 2017 Report Share Posted October 30, 2017 47 minutes ago, eyeball said: I gave some suggestions, let's hear yours. I really don't think we need to do anything to change the system other than to apply the same easily obtainable off-the-shelf technology the government uses to surveil us and use it to souveil it. And now the bleating about why we can't do that will begin. We've been down this road many many times around here. Like I said, what do you suggest? I suggest there's not damned thing to be done about it. The world is full of criminal mentalities including government. Maybe even especially, as criminals are often the kind of people who seek power. The system is set up such that an honest person cannot make it t those levels. They get shot in the head. I do not believe in solutions, only miracles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 31, 2017 Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 1 hour ago, eyeball said: Hey I get it, your hands are clean. Your halo is as pure as it is blinding. Well, if she used her car in a terror attack you'd stand a good chance of being scooped up in the dragnet the government uses to find her network of terror. If you were Muslim you'd stand a better chance of being sent to Syria for further questioning. Then you'd be back sueing me for millions of dollars. Or would you man up and claim I had no responsibility to compensate you? Well, if that were the case I would probably have forced her into it, so I would owe you. But that isn't the case, so yes, halo... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonam Posted October 31, 2017 Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 7 hours ago, eyeball said: You've been around here long enough to know I've been advocating we do just that for years. You also know how often the sort of people now whining about not being responsible for the actions of their politicians are also the biggest obstacles to creating the conditions that would make it virtually impossible for politicians to step out of line. Souveillance...body-cams... that doesn't ring a bell? How about all the times I've suggested we require a supermajority vote before sending combat troops abroad...that draws a blank too? In light of all the times I've been led to believe otherwise I'm rather gob-smacked how many right-wing conservatives are now coming out and denying that any of us are responsible for the actions of the governments we elect. I guess this is what happens when people become so determined to evade the application of a principle - just pretend it never existed. Of course I doubt this will keep any of you from saying that people in dictatorships are responsible for the actions of their governments but that's the sort of consistency one can always count on right-wing conservatives for. Yes, I've heard your ideas on souveillance and body-cams. Personally, I think its a good idea. You can count me in for the vote on whether that should be a thing when you've got the referendum on it organized. Unfortunately, the probability of something like that becoming reality seems rather slim. Rather, Western governments are increasingly clamping down on personal freedoms and privacy, while government officials, both elected and appointed, seem to become ever more corrupt and incompetent, and the mechanisms that are supposed to hold them accountable are increasingly failing in their duties. I think essentially all governments of all advanced countries are converging towards roughly the form of government that China has now: massive surveillance, censorship, government control, and corruption taking up over 50% of economic output, but a rejection on the part of government officials of wanton slaughter of millions of their own citizens to achieve their ends. Basically, dictatorship but with the understanding that mass murder and genocide of your own people isn't a great idea. With the way things are going, that's probably the best we can aspire to. People in dictatorships are no more responsible for the actions of their government than people in democracies are. They have no power to influence the course of their government affairs, and neither, realistically, do we. Democratic governments respond to the will of the masses only in the crudest ways and usually only on hot-button emotional issues rather than anything of substance. I can't speak for what you may have heard from "right-wing conservatives". I hate those guys just much as I hate "left-wing liberals". 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thinkinoutsidethebox Posted October 31, 2017 Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 20 hours ago, eyeball said: The issue isn't just how to best compensate the people that Ottawa victimizes its also how to best punish Canadians for not doing enough to prevent their governments from victimizing them in the first place. What are we supposed to do? Have "our" government nuke the people that were doing the actual torturing? Send some officials over there with girl guide cookies and ask them not to torture Canadian citizens? I suppose if whatever department of our government had sent us a memo we could have run to the airport and prevent these people from boarding the plane but the last I checked we aren't even privy to that information. Anybody care to check why these people set red flags anyway? Has anybody directly involved in this actually been held responsible? Maybe a pissed off neighbor "leaked" some information, maybe they irritated someone in some government office... How about all these reporters that are getting injured and killed? Technically we should be more liable to them and their families because we consumers of all these sensational news stories. It's pretty bad when the Canadian taxpayer is financially liable to the victims of another government's actions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thinkinoutsidethebox Posted October 31, 2017 Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 21 hours ago, PIK said: And the scoop people will get 25g's and these people 10m, really? Apparently ruining the lives of generations of a whole culture on soil we took from them is worth about 1/40th of "allowing" a foreign entity we have no control over to torture a few people... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thinkinoutsidethebox Posted October 31, 2017 Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 If these people were killed by their torturers (with our government's blessing) we wouldn't be having this discussion, probably wouldn't have made the news. Families without fathers, brothers, sons and no compensation. We may have just signed the death warrant for others in this situation. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jariax Posted October 31, 2017 Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 The other thing about the Khadr settlement that's important, is that the settlement is based on the wrongs we did (or allowed to have done), regardless of who he is as a person. We're saying that allowing Canadian citizens to be tortured with our knowledge is wrong. While Guantanamo is obviously not as egregious as what happened to Maher Arar, the fact was that he was a teenager at the time of his imprisonment and the conditions in Guantanamo do not meet our standards for how anyone (including murderers) should be treated. I think it's important to take that stand, even though we may not like the person receiving the money. Is there anyone here who would trade places with Khadr and be sent to Guantanamo from age 15 to 24 in exchange for 10.5 million dollars. There might be some, but I think the majority would say no. Compare that to the sexual harassment settlements where people are getting millions of dollars because some guy hit on them a couple of times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PIK Posted October 31, 2017 Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 He went off to war and possibly killed canadians and we apologize?? That is not how it was meant to work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted October 31, 2017 Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 3 hours ago, PIK said: He went off to war and possibly killed canadians and we apologize?? I'm not aware of anyone apologizing. The Liberals are just as loath to do that as anyone. That is not how it was meant to work. Not for adults but...you know...or should by now why things worked out the way they did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PIK Posted October 31, 2017 Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 1 hour ago, eyeball said: I'm not aware of anyone apologizing. The Liberals are just as loath to do that as anyone. Not for adults but...you know...or should by now why things worked out the way they did. He was given 10.5m and a apology from all of us. For what? Killing americans and canadians? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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