So Kevin Oleary wants to increase immigration

[Argus]

2 hours ago, Charlie said:

Canada and Australia probably have the best skilled immigration program.

Canadian immigrants have a higher unemployment rate than Canadian born.

American immigrants have a lower unemployment rate than American born.

The difference? To qualify under the American skilled immigrant program you need to have a valid job offer. Not so in Canada.

[Argus]

1 hour ago, Newfoundlander said:

What specific problems are there now?

We are taking in too many immigrants who are economically unsuccessful, and we are not screening any of the ones we bring in to get the best fit for attitudes and values.

 

[Charlie]

1 hour ago, Argus said:

Canadian immigrants have a higher unemployment rate than Canadian born.

American immigrants have a lower unemployment rate than American born.

The difference? To qualify under the American skilled immigrant program you need to have a valid job offer. Not so in Canada.

 

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tableaux/sum-som/l01/cst01/labor90a-eng.htm

Immigrants have roughly 1% higher unemployment rate than Canadian born citizens. Probably, some of it is related to the transition time of settling down and finding the job. In the long term, numbers are pretty close.Probably, we can optimize the system a little more but it's by no means a failed immigration system.

But I agree. US immigrant unemployment numbers are indeed better. 

Edited April 9, 2017 by Charlie

[Argus]

3 minutes ago, Charlie said:

 

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tableaux/sum-som/l01/cst01/labor90a-eng.htm

Immigrants have roughly 1% higher unemployment rate than Canadian born citizens. Probably, some of it is related to the transition time of settling down and finding the job. In the long term, numbers are pretty close.

Probably, we can optimize the system a little more but it's by no means a failed immigration system.

If you break down the numbers it might not be broken but it is often malfunctioning. Remember also that there are jobs and then there are JOBS. To bring people into this country for economic reasons and then have them not earning enough to pay taxes makes no sense. Which is why the Frasier Institute did a study and concluded that immigration is costing all levels of government tens of billions of dollars a year - the difference between what the new immigrants cost government in terms of services vs what they return in taxes.

 

[Charlie]

35 minutes ago, Argus said:

If you break down the numbers it might not be broken but it is often malfunctioning. Remember also that there are jobs and then there are JOBS. To bring people into this country for economic reasons and then have them not earning enough to pay taxes makes no sense. Which is why the Frasier Institute did a study and concluded that immigration is costing all levels of government tens of billions of dollars a year - the difference between what the new immigrants cost government in terms of services vs what they return in taxes.

 

There have been discussions around the Frasier Institute report's research methodology and some people cliam that there are many missing pieces e.g. https://thetyee.ca/Opinion/2013/09/12/Fraser-Institute-Immigrants-Costly/

 

[Army Guy]

23 hours ago, Rue said:

Me neither. Skilled immigrants do not take jobs away from Canadians they create them. O'Leary is talking about skilled immigrants.

Immigrants are actually needed in Canada with specific skills. I think Army with due respect is mistaking skilled immigrants which we need to attract with unskilled migrants jumping the line using the cover of being refugees.

Humanely we need to accommodate a fixed number of refugees a year not an unlimited amount. This allowing migrants to break the law and flood our country is a recipe for disaster. Lets not mistake illegal migrants for legitimate immigrants or refugees.

As for legitimate refugees-the vast majority don't come here unless we fly them. What we are seeing are migrants-people looking for a better life with no skills and so know the regular immigration route won't take them and so walk in illegally because our current government has given them the green light.

O'Leary with due respect to Army did not say that. He has condemned illegal migrants.

I do not want to sound elitist or racist but its a topic I can't sugar coat. When we get skilled people from China and India becoming cutting edge doctors in Canada no one complains unless they drive their cars badly. We have sucked up skilled labour from other nations causing brain drain in their home nations. Its a complex world but Canada is not producing enough skilled individuals to keep us competitive in world markets, that is what O'Leary was saying. He was very clear about illegal migrants making a farse of the immigration system. Immigration policy designed to bring skilled individuals to Canada to keep the economy going is crucial to replace the baby boom bubble.

 

No Rue, am i am sorry for not providing some detail with my post...., that state that the cost to Canadian taxpayers for immigration, was estimated net costs of 35 bil dollars a year....         http://immigrationwatchcanada.org/   That is a lot of cash....more than enough to fund a program that encourages Canadians to have babies.....but also fund a national child care program.....

Studies have already shown that immigration will not stop our pending issue of a older population base....it will slow it down but it in it's self will not stop it... So immigration is not the answer nor short term goal.....there needs to be another answer, with a full set of other solutions.....one of the main reason families do not have more children is the cost , the cost of child care is sky high, and the other cost cutting programs or rebates do not make it even come close to make people reconsider having larger families.....we need an incentive to have families grow in size from the average 1.2 kids today to a minimum of 4 or 5.....much like the baby boomer generation.

Now when it comes to highly skilled labours being brought into Canada in 2016 were 58,400, infact the total number of skilled or semi skilled workers was 160,000 out of 300,000....just a little over half....the others include  Spouses, Partners and Children,Parents and Grandparents, and other.....and while these are important to some Canadian citizens.....they represent a huge draw on resources, as most do not earn a wage or pay taxes, but rather draw tax dollars for medicare etc....Not that this country can not support both or multiply programs to solve out issues...

..http://canadaimmigrants.com/canadas-immigration-targets-2016/

Once again one has to ask could we not give out either free education, to those field we are short in, or provide a huge tax relief or discount of some sort to Canadian kids.....we seem to swallow this "Immigration" will solve all our issues, create more jobs, through new homes , etc etc ....but do we not do that now with Canadians, they move out of the house, they rent, and once they get established they purchase homes.....why do we need to be the worlds piggy bank, providing immigrants with jobs, that they can't find in their country, or they earn much more here in the west.....why not give those jobs to Canadians...  I get it it is not going to happen over night....it will take a generation to slow the flow of immigrants.....to a more reasonable levels.....

someone would say we are a diverse nation, a melting pot....problem with melting pots is everyone gets mixed in and we become a mut of some sort......not what we have today in our big cities.....what we have is the UN .....ever been down town lately, drive a few blocks and your in china town, drive a few more and your in little jamaica, or in Persia, it's goes on and on....that is not diversity...i meet a chinese man down town TO, been there for 25 years could barely speak english...why bother he said every one here speaks chinese here, and if they don't i get someone that can speak english.....they have just transplanted themselves from their nations to ours....nothing changed....we pat ourselves on the back and say we are diverse.....are we really ? 

 

Edited April 9, 2017 by Army Guy

[taxme]

On 4/8/2017 at 5:40 PM, blackbird said:

If they bring in a lot of low-skilled workers willing to work slave hours, a contractor will simply hire them and lay off Canadian workers.  Why would he waste time with Canadian workers if he can get slave labour willing to work 14 or 16 hours a day.  A contractor can make much more money with slave labour.

Exactly. We had politicians that did something for Canadians at one time. Now they are the enemy of the Canadian people. They now keep flooding Canada with people that are going to be of no use or benefit to make Canada great again. Canadian workers are getting screwed alright, and they can thank their fake and phony politically correct politicians for it all. And if these Canadian workers keep sitting on their butts and say nothing about all this third world illegal, immigration then they will have no one to blame but themselves. It will only get worse. They better speak up soon or they will be working 14 hours a day with no benefits. The writing is on the wall. Read what is on the wall or forever shut up. 

[taxme]

3 hours ago, Argus said:

If you break down the numbers it might not be broken but it is often malfunctioning. Remember also that there are jobs and then there are JOBS. To bring people into this country for economic reasons and then have them not earning enough to pay taxes makes no sense. Which is why the Frasier Institute did a study and concluded that immigration is costing all levels of government tens of billions of dollars a year - the difference between what the new immigrants cost government in terms of services vs what they return in taxes.

 

Politicians "ARE" the problem. If politicians would stop being oh so politically correct and oh so pro-multicultural we would not be in the mess that we are finding ourselves in to today. We need more common sense and logic applied by our fearless leaders before they end up destroying Canada, and all that it once stood for. 

[betsy]

15 hours ago, Newfoundlander said:

What specific problems are there now?

 

 

 

 

[betsy]

In his first 100 days, he said he will tour the world, meeting with business people to invite them to invest in Canada? 

Do you have to tour the world for that?  The Canadian PM will go knocking door-to-door?  Is he kidding?

Surely, there has to be a much better way to invite investors!

Edited April 10, 2017 by betsy

[Rue]

On ‎2017‎-‎04‎-‎09 at 7:01 PM, Army Guy said:

No Rue, am i am sorry for not providing some detail with my post...., that state that the cost to Canadian taxpayers for immigration, was estimated net costs of 35 bil dollars a year....         http://immigrationwatchcanada.org/   That is a lot of cash....more than enough to fund a program that encourages Canadians to have babies.....but also fund a national child care program.....

Studies have already shown that immigration will not stop our pending issue of a older population base....it will slow it down but it in it's self will not stop it... So immigration is not the answer nor short term goal.....there needs to be another answer, with a full set of other solutions.....one of the main reason families do not have more children is the cost , the cost of child care is sky high, and the other cost cutting programs or rebates do not make it even come close to make people reconsider having larger families.....we need an incentive to have families grow in size from the average 1.2 kids today to a minimum of 4 or 5.....much like the baby boomer generation.

Now when it comes to highly skilled labours being brought into Canada in 2016 were 58,400, infact the total number of skilled or semi skilled workers was 160,000 out of 300,000....just a little over half....the others include  Spouses, Partners and Children,Parents and Grandparents, and other.....and while these are important to some Canadian citizens.....they represent a huge draw on resources, as most do not earn a wage or pay taxes, but rather draw tax dollars for medicare etc....Not that this country can not support both or multiply programs to solve out issues...

..http://canadaimmigrants.com/canadas-immigration-targets-2016/

Once again one has to ask could we not give out either free education, to those field we are short in, or provide a huge tax relief or discount of some sort to Canadian kids.....we seem to swallow this "Immigration" will solve all our issues, create more jobs, through new homes , etc etc ....but do we not do that now with Canadians, they move out of the house, they rent, and once they get established they purchase homes.....why do we need to be the worlds piggy bank, providing immigrants with jobs, that they can't find in their country, or they earn much more here in the west.....why not give those jobs to Canadians...  I get it it is not going to happen over night....it will take a generation to slow the flow of immigrants.....to a more reasonable levels.....

someone would say we are a diverse nation, a melting pot....problem with melting pots is everyone gets mixed in and we become a mut of some sort......not what we have today in our big cities.....what we have is the UN .....ever been down town lately, drive a few blocks and your in china town, drive a few more and your in little jamaica, or in Persia, it's goes on and on....that is not diversity...i meet a chinese man down town TO, been there for 25 years could barely speak english...why bother he said every one here speaks chinese here, and if they don't i get someone that can speak english.....they have just transplanted themselves from their nations to ours....nothing changed....we pat ourselves on the back and say we are diverse.....are we really ? 

 

Thanks Army. I agree with some of what you say and now better understand your point. I think we don't disagree on one thing-we have to be careful in our selection criteria.

I just fall back to the fact that this country was built by immigrants. All of us other than aboriginal peoples are. Even they at one point would have migrated here from Mongolia, etc., but I think away back them the only people meeting them were mosquitoes.

I don't want to change the tread topic anymore than I did. Just meant to point out I agree with O'Leary and he does not condone what is going on. No, Lol I do not work for him.

I have to admit unless you can convince me otherwise my friend, I would have to vote for him right now from the lot of them running.

 

[Thinkinoutsidethebox]

We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them... Albert Einstein?

We seem to be chasing our tail here, immigration, TFWs, refugees and yet the debt keeps growing.

How about Fort McMurray? Can't bring the foreign workers in fast enough, oil takes a dump and guess who's holding the bag? 

Eastern Canada is on pogy half the year, Western Canada can't find enough help in the same period?

Want skilled Canadian labor? Start bringing our kids to work with us, they need to participate, they want to learn. Why do Canadians think our kids don't have the ability to take over for us and continue to move the country forward. It seems they are only good for XBox and hanging out on the street or in the mall? 

It makes me sad to see we have such a low opinion of ourselves and those we are raising. Thirty five million of us and we need to import talent, think about it...

 
 

[Michael Hardner]

6 hours ago, Thinkinoutsidethebox said:

It makes me sad to see we have such a low opinion of ourselves and those we are raising. Thirty five million of us and we need to import talent, think about it...

If we need more skilled workers than we produce, then what do we do ?  Not everyone has the propensity to be a tech worker, doctor etc.  

And to be competitive and to allow business to be successful we have to be productive and competitive on the world market.  Immigration isn't going to reduce, and in fact world immigration is increasing.  Almost 250 million migrated across borders in 2015:

http://www.un.org/sustainabledevelopment/blog/2016/01/244-million-international-migrants-living-abroad-worldwide-new-un-statistics-reveal/

If capital is allowed to move from country to country then people should be able to also, with conditions.

[Thinkinoutsidethebox]

We

49 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

If we need more skilled workers than we produce, then what do we do ?  Not everyone has the propensity to be a tech worker, doctor etc.  

And to be competitive and to allow business to be successful we have to be productive and competitive on the world market.  Immigration isn't going to reduce, and in fact world immigration is increasing.  Almost 250 million migrated across borders in 2015:

http://www.un.org/sustainabledevelopment/blog/2016/01/244-million-international-migrants-living-abroad-worldwide-new-un-statistics-reveal/

If capital is allowed to move from country to country then people should be able to also, with conditions.

We're working in a finite world, 24 million isn't enough, 35 million isn't enough, 330 million isn't enough, apparently a billion isn't enough. See a pattern emerging here? 

Here's a question, what are "skills"? Here's some definitions  https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=define+skills  . Skills are formed by learning and experiencing from doing, developing sjills is the gateway to success. In this country we are running something like 8% unemployed at any given time, youth unemployment runs around 13% why are we not training these people and giving them skills? Instead we just replace them with imported bodies with "skills" that are willing to do the work.

Trying lure kills from other countries is not being competitive, it causes "brain drain" there and reduces their ability to import goods and services. We live on a finite planet and believing people are born with talent instead of growing it only makes it worse.

Personally I think we should look within, what are we importing that we can make or do ourselves? Canada is not a leader in any form or fashion we just blindly follow what everyone else is doing and what the "experts" tell us (the last presidential election should tell us what their opinion is worth...). We should start using what we have, giving our youth real world experiences instead of just throwing them out. Canadians built a world class fighter jet, we practically invented the smartphone among other things https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Canadian_inventions mayby it's time we inovate our way out of debt and perenial trade deficits by working from within.

PS, I'm not saying we should outlaw trade and immigration, I'm saying we have practically everything we need, we all know it.

[Michael Hardner]

36 minutes ago, Thinkinoutsidethebox said:

1) why are we not training these people and giving them skills? Instead we just replace them with imported bodies with "skills" that are willing to do the work.

1) You can't train anybody to do anything.  Unfortunately the new economy requires raw talent that can't always be taught.

[Argus]

14 hours ago, Rue said:

I don't want to change the tread topic anymore than I did. Just meant to point out I agree with O'Leary and he does not condone what is going on. No, Lol I do not work for him.

I have to admit unless you can convince me otherwise my friend, I would have to vote for him right now from the lot of them running.

I DON'T agree with him, and yesterday evening told his campaign to stop sending me email as I don't consider him to be a serious candidate. His policies are generalized and non-specific, much like Trump's were. He says what he thinks people want to hear, again like Trump. In the case of social policy he's chosen to appeal to the Left rather than the Right but his policies are just as untenable as Trumps. His immigration beliefs, as stated on his web site, are cliches. We need more immigration to combat a low birth rate - something demographics experts have said won't work. We need immigration because of skills shortages - which studies have shown don't exist and will not exist. We need immigration because it makes us richer - only it doesn't. The Fraser Institute has shown as much. He's a loudmouthed narcissist like Trump and he has no ideas, even on economics, which can't be better put in place by other candidates.

[Argus]

3 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

1) You can't train anybody to do anything.  Unfortunately the new economy requires raw talent that can't always be taught.

We stand a better chance of training a Canadian who has gone through our education system than someone from the third world who has not, and has an imperfect grasp of English.

[Argus]

6 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

If we need more skilled workers than we produce, then what do we do ?  Not everyone has the propensity to be a tech worker, doctor etc.  

We don't. The shortage of doctors is due to policy. It could be alleviated by changing policy but we aren't doing so. As for other workers, there is no skills shortage. 

 

A second study in less than a week has concluded that there is no labour shortage in Canada, nor is one expected to arrive in the next few decades. A study published Friday by a University of Lethbridge professor echoes results of a report by the federal government’s Parliamentary Budget Office released Tuesday — both conclude there are more than enough workers on a national basis in Canada to fill available jobs.

http://www.calgaryherald.com/business/Study+debunks+Canadian+labour+shortage/9674478/story.html

Dire warnings of a widespread Canadian labour crisis and a “lost generation” of young workers have been overblown, according to a market analysis by TD Economics. Deputy chief economist Derek Burleton says demographic and economic shifts may be hitting young workers particularly hard, but he doesn’t believe projections of across-the-board labour shortages and skills gaps.

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2013/10/21/skills-gap-canada-labour-shortage_n_4138487.html

Our population would be stabilized with immigration at only 100,000

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/91-003-x/2007001/figures/4129879-eng.htm

Canada would have to take in 2.6 million immigrants a year by 2020 and seven million by 2050 — raising its population to 165.4-million — if it wants to keep its ratio of retirees-toworkers at its current 20%, according to a study from the C.D. Howe Institute.

http://www.pressreader.com/canada/national-post-latest-edition/20060927/282389804967681

 

Edited April 11, 2017 by Argus

[Army Guy]

I wonder how did we ever got into the industrial age if new skills and trades could not be taught to the people of those times, and now are you suggesting we have hit a wall, in the west were we can land a man on the moon but can't conquer other talents...such as the new economy......

3 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

1) You can't train anybody to do anything.  Unfortunately the new economy requires raw talent that can't always be taught.

 

[PIK]

Then only bring in young european immigrants. No more M.E or african for now.

[Michael Hardner]

6 hours ago, Argus said:

We stand a better chance of training a Canadian who has gone through our education system than someone from the third world who has not, and has an imperfect grasp of English.

We don't bring in unskilled immigrants for those jobs.

[Michael Hardner]

6 hours ago, Army Guy said:

I wonder how did we ever got into the industrial age if new skills and trades could not be taught to the people of those times, and now are you suggesting we have hit a wall, in the west were we can land a man on the moon but can't conquer other talents...such as the new economy......

Here's why: you can teach someone to use a drill more easily than to program in object oriented computer languages.

[Michael Hardner]

5 hours ago, PIK said:

Then only bring in young european immigrants. No more M.E or african for now.

Do you think maybe we should use some other criteria ?  Like their education and work experience ?

[Army Guy]

3 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Here's why: you can teach someone to use a drill more easily than to program in object oriented computer languages.

I 100% agree with you, one could teach a monkey to use a drill.....and teaching someone to program oriented computer languages is a lot tougher.....but not impossible. unless you have discovered that Canadians are not capable of such learning feats ? which i don't think is what you meant....

In Canada if there is enough need for such a skill, such as your above example , then can we not put together a training program to solve the issue, entice people through tax breaks , free education, etc etc........ And if the numbers required for this skill are not cost efficient then i could understand why we need to import them from other source countries.....I'm not say cut immigration off totally, but reduce it , with a combination of other solutions....

But as i have said before i don't see Canada , a G-7 country being out educated by other 3 rd world countries....not that it is impossible but improbable.

 

[Michael Hardner]

9 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

1) I 100% agree with you, one could teach a monkey to use a drill.....and teaching someone to program oriented computer languages is a lot tougher.....but not impossible. unless you have discovered that Canadians are not capable of such learning feats ? which i don't think is what you meant....

2) In Canada if there is enough need for such a skill, such as your above example , then can we not put together a training program to solve the issue, entice people through tax breaks , free education, etc etc........ And if the numbers required for this skill are not cost efficient then i could understand why we need to import them from other source countries.....I'm not say cut immigration off totally, but reduce it , with a combination of other solutions....

3) But as i have said before i don't see Canada , a G-7 country being out educated by other 3 rd world countries....not that it is impossible but improbable.

 

1) Of course they are capable but it's easier to bring experienced coders from overseas.  

2) Training program is our colleges and universities.  They can graduate and be making high 5 figures by the time they're 25 years old so why aren't they all doing it ?  

3) We can take the brightest from other countries because they want to live here.