Can You Be Good Without God?

[betsy]

8 hours ago, kimmy said:

 

 

The video includes an image of a newspaper with the headline "Man Kills Child" as something we universally recognize as wrong.

Exactly!

That, there is a universal recognition of that act as wrong, is the point.

 

 

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Yes, we do. And it's not just humans, either. Most types of animals feel the same way. 

Yes, we do. And it's not just humans, either. Most types of animals feel the same way.  Every creature has some strategy for making sure its offspring survive.  For some types of animals, it's simply a matter of having so many offspring that the law of averages says enough survive to continue the species. For other types of animals-- mammals, birds-- care and nurturing are part of making sure their offspring survive.

Not in the sense that they see it as "right" and "wrong" the way we do.  For I see cats who unnecessarily toy with their prey, and leave them uneaten after they'd killed them.

  It's natural instinct.

  Aside from knowing it's the right thing to do, humans have the natural instinct to be protective of their children, too.  They say  something happens when a mother holds her baby for the first time.

 

 

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Most of us have seen some of the enchanting animal videos on the internet. One of my favorites is one where a big dog shows up in a yard and tries to grab a toddler... in a flash, a little house-cat attacks the dog like a fluffy little cyclone, chasing it away from the toddler. In another, a child falls down and hurts himself... mom arrives on the scene, but the family cat arrives too, thinks the woman has hurt the child, and makes her back away. A dog sees a girl swimming, and jumps into the lake, chomps a mouthful of her hair, and swims frantically to pull her to shore.

 

I wouldn't know for certain  what instructions God had given to animals (if He did instruct them separately from us).  It is possible.  I am making assumptions here.   I know that God had said these though, and made a covenant that included animals, too:

 

Genesis 9

⁵ Surely for your lifeblood I will demand a reckoning; from the hand of every beast I will require it, 

and from the hand of man. From the hand of every man’s brother I will require the life of man.

⁶ “Whoever sheds man’s blood,
By man his blood shall be shed;
For in the image of God
He made man.

 

⁹ “And as for Me, behold, I establish My covenant with you and with your descendants^[b] after you, ¹⁰ and with every living creature that is with you: the birds, the cattle, and every beast of the earth with you, of all that go out of the ark, every beast of the earth. ¹¹ Thus I establish My covenant with you: Never again shall all flesh be cut off by the waters of the flood; never again shall there be a flood to destroy the earth.”

 

Hosea 2

¹⁸ In that day I will make a covenant for them
With the beasts of the field,
With the birds of the air,
And with the creeping things of the ground.
Bow and sword of battle I will shatter from the earth,
To make them lie down safely.

Edited April 23, 2017 by betsy

[betsy]

8 hours ago, kimmy said:

 

Further on the issue of "Man Kills Child", we can look at two examples from the Bible in which God explicitly tells men to kill children.  One of them is when the Israelites massacred the Amalekites. God instructed the Israelites to kill every last man, woman, and child, even infants, even their farm animals. Everything. Nothing was to be left. If one supposes the killing of children to be an objective evil, this has to be pretty tough to reconcile with the notion of God as the definition of good. But Dr Craig tries anyway... he wrote an essay on the subject. "Obviously this sounds pretty bad, but..."    Ultimately, the fact that Dr Craig can attempt to rationalize such a horrific event as "not actually evil" demonstrates that no matter how black and white a case of "objective morality" appears, there's subjective wiggle-room.

-k

 

There is a reason why God ordered that.  To punish the Amelekites for waylaying the Israelites on their way to Egypt.  We don't know why God would have them kill everyone, but it wouldn't be without reason.

 

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Unlike us, God knows the future. God knew what the results would be if Israel did not completely eradicate the Amalekites. If Israel did not carry out God’s orders, the Amalekites would come back to trouble the Israelites in the future. Saul claimed to have killed everyone but the Amalekite king Agag (1 Samuel 15:20). Obviously, Saul was lying—just a couple of decades later, there were enough Amalekites to take David and his men’s families captive (1 Samuel 30:1-2). After David and his men attacked the Amalekites and rescued their families, 400 Amalekites escaped.

If Saul had fulfilled what God had commanded him, this never would have occurred.

Several hundred years later, a descendant of Agag, Haman, tried to have the entire Jewish people exterminated (see the book of Esther). So, Saul’s incomplete obedience almost resulted in Israel’s destruction. God knew this would occur, so He ordered the extermination of the Amalekites ahead of time.

 

Probably the most difficult part of these commands from God is that God ordered the death of children and infants as well. Why would God order the death of innocent children? (1) Children are not innocent (Psalm 51:5; 58:3). (2) These children would have likely grown up as adherents to the evil religions and practices of their parents. (3) These children would naturally have grown up resentful of the Israelites and later sought to avenge the “unjust” treatment of their parents.
 

 

https://www.gotquestions.org/Canaanites-extermination.html

 

 

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A second example of God killing a man to kill a child is when God told Abraham to kill his own son.  Luckily for Isaac, God stopped him at the last minute, once he had seen that Abraham really did intend to go through with it. What was the point of this?  To make Abraham prove that his obedience to God was absolute... that he'd do what God told him, no matter how wrong it seemed.

 

 

 

 

First of all, who is Abraham?  What role was he to play in God's plan?

 

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What's the message here?

 

TRUST GOD!

You, yourself, had admitted, "God stopped him at the last minute."

 

 

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The message is don't trust your instincts, that morality that is "written in our hearts".  The message is, don't listen to that innate sense of right and wrong that we possess... obey your religion instead.  But if God is the source of this "objective morality" we all supposedly possess, why would religion come into conflict with it?

 

If you knew it was God instructing you, wouldn't you listen?  Abraham knew it was God....after all, it wasn't the first time God has spoken to him.  Remember when God met and told him he'll have a son with Sarah?  At their old age?

 

The story of Ishmael (Abraham's son with Sarah's servant),  is another evidence why God has to be trusted and obeyed. 

Edited April 23, 2017 by betsy

[kimmy]

On 4/23/2017 at 8:27 AM, betsy said:

Exodus 20

¹³ “You shall not murder.

The distinction between killing and murder isn't "absolute" either. The news is full of cases that some people say are justified self-defense and others say are cold-blooded murder. There's no "absolute" or "objective" here. It's all subjective.

 

On 4/23/2017 at 9:07 AM, betsy said:

There is a reason why God ordered that.  To punish the Amelekites for waylaying the Israelites on their way to Egypt.  We don't know why God would have them kill everyone, but it wouldn't be without reason.

If there's a way to rationalize a "universal evil" as good or necessary, it's not really "universal", is it?

The Old Testament also says that disobedient children are to be dragged to town square and stoned to death, so clearly the ancient Israelites didn't consider killing children to be a "universal evil", either.

On 4/23/2017 at 8:37 AM, betsy said:

Not in the sense that they see it as "right" and "wrong" the way we do.  For I see cats who unnecessarily toy with their prey, and leave them uneaten after they'd killed them.

  It's natural instinct.

  Aside from knowing it's the right thing to do, humans have the natural instinct to be protective of their children, too.  They say  something happens when a mother holds her baby for the first time.

You and Dr Craig argue that God could be the only source of this absolute morality you believe exists.

I believe that our innate morality actually stems from instincts that were bred into ourselves (and other social creatures) over the course of eons. These instincts helped our species survive. Those who had these instincts formed strong tribes (or herds or flocks) and improved their chances of raising a next generation of offspring to carry on their line. Those without these instincts were less likely to produce offspring and were removed from the gene pool.

If you want to believe that God put those instincts into us and to other creatures, that's fine, but God isn't the only explanation for how they exist.

On 4/23/2017 at 8:17 AM, betsy said:

No one says  Christians don't do bad things.  The Scriptures had been abused and used to rationalize doing bad things.  No one says there are no relativists among Christians, either.

Stick to the issue, please.

The point isn't that Christians sometimes do bad things.  The point is that the Christian understanding of "good" and "bad" has evolved continuously over time.

Dr Craig suggests that equality is a universally recognized good, and discrimination is a universally recognized evil, but that's obviously not true. If we traveled back in time 300 years, we would find millions of people who don't recognize equality as a universal good, or view discrimination as evil. 

Our understanding of "good" and "evil" has evolved continuously. There's no "absolute" or "objective" there.

 -k

[Moonlight Graham]

Religions are moral philosophies.  They are codes or rules about how to live a "good" life, and to know right from wrong.  You do not need a belief in God to have a moral code or belief in what is right vs wrong.  I don't need fear of God's wrath to make me treat people well, seeing their smiles & reciprocity is reward enough itself.

The golden rule "Do unto others as you would have done unto you", common among most religions, does not require a belief in God or Gods or an afterlife to follow.  That's why most atheists/agnostics are not psychopathic killers.

I don't believe in religions, especially dogma, in part because I refuse to have my moral code of what is right vs wrong to be determined by a single book or religious authorities.  I choose to have my moral code determined by myself and myself alone, using logic & reason, life experience, people I admire, philosophies I admire etc. (including parts of Christianity).  I am, therefore I think. 

Edited May 1, 2017 by Moonlight Graham

[blackbird]

2 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

 

The golden rule "Do unto others as you would have done unto you", common among most religions, does not require a belief in God or Gods or an afterlife to follow.  That's why most atheists/agnostics are not psychopathic killers.

I don't believe in religions, especially dogma, in part because I refuse to have my moral code of what is right vs wrong to be determined by a single book or religious authorities.  I choose to have my moral code determined by myself and myself alone, using logic & reason, life experience, people I admire, philosophies I admire etc. (including parts of Christianity).  I am, therefore I think. 

In choosing to have your own moral code determined by yourself and yourself alone, you make a fatal error.  The proof is in the history of mankind right up to this moment.  The prisons of the world are full of people who did exactly what you are saying and look where it got them.  The mental institution's forensic units are full of people who also used your principle of being their own moral code.  The history of the world had countless barbaric and cruel dictators like Hitler, Stalin, Chairman Mao, Pol Pot, who did things by their own moral code.  So in all honesty what makes you think your moral code would be that much better, even if you didn't commit the same crimes as they did?  Even what appeared to be harmless old women have sometimes gone astray as the woman known as the black widow.  She married men and then killed them.  Then there is the home care worker in Ontario who is alleged to have killed a number of elderly residents in old folks homes. 

Mankind is a history of bad actors, criminals, child molesters, rapists, thieves, serial killers, war criminals, and murderers.  All thought their own morality was the best thing there was. 

Then there are the small time criminals who do crooked things such as ripping off people they deal with, maybe evading paying income taxes, maybe always driving above the speed limit, or telling little "white" lies.  Maybe they never get in trouble with the law and manage to avoid getting caught, but they are still pushing the bounds where they think they can get away with it.  They have their own moral code too.

When God created man and woman, Adam and Eve, there was no sin.  But Adam and Eve rebelled against God and received the judgment of God on them and their descendants (us).  It means we are all born with a sinful nature and are born in a state of rebellion against God.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Before Adam and Eve sinned, they had eternal life and could have lived forever, but once they sinned, it meant they would die.  The same will happen to us.  We may still be saved by the new birth or by being born again.  "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.  Romans 6:23

BUT you might say why should I believe the Bible? It is written by men?

This is the first great error. 

The Bible is divinely inspired.

"Take thee a roll of a book, and write therein all the words that I have spoken unto thee against Israel, and against Judah, and against all the nations, from the day I spake unto thee, from the days of Josiah, even unto this day."  Jeremiah 36:2   King James Bible (1611)

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" 2 Timothy ch3 vs16    KJV 1611

"For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." 2 Peter ch1 vs21 Kings James Bible (authorized version 1611)

Way back in time, before the creation of the universe, there was a very beautiful angel called Lucifer in heaven with God.  There were innumerable angels.  Now Lucifer looked at himself and decided he was so beautiful and thought he could be god.  So Lucifer decided to rebel against almighty God.  He took a third of the angels with him.  They were kicked out of heaven and he received a new name as Satan.  Lucifer is that fallen angel. This account is in old testament although I can't remember where offhand.  Satan has been given certain limited power for a period of time on earth.  But God has a plan and Satan and his followers will be punished with everlasting destruction at a certain point in time.  Those who spend their life following Satan and refuse to repent and believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour will end up in the Lake of Fire with him.   Those who believe the gospel and believe in Jesus Christ will be saved and live forever in heaven.  "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved"  book of Acts

Edited May 1, 2017 by blackbird

[Omni]

30 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Way back in time, before the creation of the universe, there was a very beautiful angel called Lucifer in heaven with God.  There were innumerable angels.  Now Lucifer looked at himself and decided he was so beautiful and thought he could be god.  So Lucifer decided to rebel against almighty God.  He took a third of the angels with him.  They were kicked out of heaven and he received a new name as Satan. 

Hey man, way back when I was a teenager I did some micro blue dot and I swear I was in exactly the same place.

[Moonlight Graham]

1 hour ago, blackbird said:

In choosing to have your own moral code determined by yourself and yourself alone, you make a fatal error.  The proof is in the history of mankind right up to this moment.  The prisons of the world are full of people who did exactly what you are saying and look where it got them.  The mental institution's forensic units are full of people who also used your principle of being their own moral code.  The history of the world had countless barbaric and cruel dictators like Hitler, Stalin, Chairman Mao, Pol Pot, who did things by their own moral code.  So in all honesty what makes you think your moral code would be that much better, even if you didn't commit the same crimes as they did? 

My moral code is better than Christian moral code because i take out all the good stuff out of Christianity and use it, and replace the bad stuff like shaming homosexuals and providing rules for slavery and "just war" and improving upon it.

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Mankind is a history of bad actors, criminals, child molesters, rapists, thieves, serial killers, war criminals, and murderers.  All thought their own morality was the best thing there was. 

They should have followed my moral code then, because I've never done any of those things.  Actually I did steal a pack of trading cards from a store once when I was 4, but I was still a Christian then.

1 hour ago, blackbird said:

BUT you might say why should I believe the Bible? It is written by men?

This is the first great error. 

The Bible is divinely inspired.

Why should I believe that?  The Koran is also divinely inspired and I don't like the Koran.  I don't like a lot of the Bible either.  Maybe I should write a book.

[betsy]

17 hours ago, kimmy said:

 

The distinction between killing and murder isn't "absolute" either. The news is full of cases that some people say are justified self-defense and others say are cold-blooded murder. There's no "absolute" or "objective" here. It's all subjective.

 

 

Relativism. 

Besides, if it's indeed self-defense - then, it's not murder, is it? 

 

Our justice system may've gotten it right, or wrong.  We've heard the saying, "he's gotten away with murder."  However, just because someone was able to fool the law, it doesn't make it any less if it was a calculated, deliberate killing of a person.  It's still murder.

 

God knows.   The perpetrator knows in his heart he committed murder.

Edited May 1, 2017 by betsy

[betsy]

10 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Why should I believe that?  The Koran is also divinely inspired and I don't like the Koran.  I don't like a lot of the Bible either.  Maybe I should write a book.

Good question.

 

Though your question is not directed at me....what a coincidence that I just reviewed the evidences why you should believe the Bible.

The answer is coming up.......soon.

 

Update:  refer to

 

 

Edited May 1, 2017 by betsy

[blackbird]

13 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Why should I believe that?  The Koran is also divinely inspired and I don't like the Koran.  I don't like a lot of the Bible either.  Maybe I should write a book.

There evidence that the Bible is the Word of God can be found without a lot of difficulty. 

This is one site that has a comprehensive presentation of the evidence.  This is just a part of it:

I will quote the first point here.  You can go to the website below to find all five points.

Quote

 

Quote

Evidence that the Bible is God’s Word

There is much that even a superficial examiner will discover about the Bible that recommends it as the true, timeless revelation of God to man. The Bible succinctly addresses both origins and future events, credibly answering the three greatest questions (whence? whither? and wherefore?). It marshals the full contingent of rhetorical instruments into a single message: poetry, philosophy, pithy proverbs, parables, prophecy, and poignant historical narratives alike speak in a compelling manner. The pathos of the crucifixion account is an event worthy of being the pinnacle of world history, that Omnipotence would submit to death at the hands of his own creation! The resurrection of the founder and the message of salvation by faith apart from human works stand in stark contrast to every other religious system known. But to fully appreciate the weight of the evidence, one must dig deeper than this. There are several lines of reasoning that give testimony to the fact that the Bible is the Word of God. They can be generally grouped into five broad topics, each of which deserves a great deal more attention than is currently given here. For further information, Josh McDowell’s book Evidence That Demands a Verdict is a good resource.

First let us consider the uniqueness of the book. The Bible is unique in preparation, circulation, translation, and preservation. The Bible was written over a period of 1,500 years by a great variety of men who were inspired of God. From the king of Babylon writing in Chaldean to the humble prophet of Samaria; from an educated doctor writing in Greek to the beautiful lyrics composed by a Hebrew shepherd in the field; from a statesman born in ancient Egypt to a fisherman of the Roman era; it is difficult to conceive of a more diverse group! Writing any volume of such length and being in compete harmony would indeed be a wonder, much less dealing with a topic so controversial as religion. No book in the history of the world has been as widely circulated as the scripture. Every year it outsells all of the top best-sellers and it has now been translated into over 1,200 different languages. Despite the hammers of higher criticism and the black-listing of dictators, the anvil of God’s Word survives after the hammers where out. The noted French infidel Voltaire was convinced that he could destroy Christianity and the Bible. At one point, he held up a copy of the Bible in the air and smugly proclaimed, “In 100 years this book will be forgotten and eliminated…” Among the places where Voltaire lived was an estate in Geneva, Switzerland called Les Délices. After Voltaire moved on, the residence was occupied by the Tronchin family. Colonel Henri Tronchin was President of the Evangelical Society of Geneva and Les Délices is reliably reported to have been used as a repository for Bibles, the very book Voltaire had assigned to extinction! Discoveries of hundreds of copies of the ancient texts from a millennium before Christ reveal the remarkable preservation of the message throughout time. The Bible is also unique in message and influence. The Bible unequivocally claims to be the word of God (II Timothy 3:16, II Peter 1:16-21). Either it satisfies that claim or it is not a “good book.” From beginning to end the Bible carries a message of the Messiah, God in the flesh. C.S. Lewis effectively countered the myth of Jesus Christ being merely a “good man.” Christ claimed to be God. So either He was divine, or he was a deceitful impostor, or he was pathetically self-deluded. This has been called the Lord/Liar/Lunatic trilemma. Great men the world over have sought to plummet the message of the scriptures. From common people with no formal education to the brightest minds in the scientific world, most have found intellectual challenge and many have come to know spiritual fulfillment in the message of this unique book.    Unquote

 

So the reasons summarized are:

1. Uniqueness of the book

2. The historical accuracy of the scriptures.

3. The evidence of fulfilled prophecy.

4. The Bible is scientifically accurate.

5. The demonstration of changed lives.

     These are the five points stressed in this article.  I realize it may take some time to read and consider these five points, but the valuable things in life sometimes require some effort and time. 

http://www.genesispark.com/essays/gods-word/

The Quran does not have the evidence of being divinely inspired as the Bible does for many reasons.  However, we will leave that for another discussion as the Bible is the topic and is inspired (the King James Bible 1611 otherwise known as the Authorized Version)  I cannot say the same for modern versions but that also should be another discussion.

 

 

[Omni]

35 minutes ago, blackbird said:

The Quran does not have the evidence of being divinely inspired as the Bible does for many reasons

The adherents of the second largest religion on the planet would disagree with that thought.

[Michael Hardner]

52 minutes ago, blackbird said:

 

http://www.genesispark.com/essays/gods-word/ 

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 The purpose of Genesis Park is to showcase the evidence that dinosaurs and man were created together and have co-existed throughout history.

I reject your source, as their stated objective is to show (at most) part of the information in question.

[blackbird]

1 hour ago, Omni said:

The adherents of the second largest religion on the planet would disagree with that thought.

 

I'm sure they would.  But disagreeing about something without knowing all the facts doesn't make much sense does it?  It is much like the people who blindly follow a cult leader and take the poison drink.  

That's why anyone who wishes to know the truth needs to look at the evidence.  Without an examination of the evidence it is impossible to know.  It is much like a court case.  If the jury does not look at the evidence (from both sides preferably), they cannot make an informed decision.

Edited May 1, 2017 by blackbird

[Omni]

1 minute ago, blackbird said:

 

I'm sure they would.  That's why anyone who wishes to know the truth needs to look at the evidence.  Without an examination of the evidence it is impossible to know.

Their evidence shows them their book was divinely inspired.

[blackbird]

3 minutes ago, Omni said:

Their evidence shows them their book was divinely inspired.

I'm sure there are millions of knowledgeable people who would disagree, but as I said, making a judgment without the facts is not much use.  Jesus said if the blind follow the blind, both will fall into the ditch.

 

That is why we have qualified lawyers on the prosecution side and on the defense side to argue both sides of an issue.

Edited May 1, 2017 by blackbird

[Omni]

Just now, blackbird said:

I'm sure there are millions of knowledgeable people who would disagree, but as I said, making a judgment without the facts is not much use.  Jesus said if the blind follow the blind, both will fall into the ditch.

So you only accept your book as 'the" book and everyone else is blind for preferring their book. That sounds strangely like blondness in my book.

[blackbird]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

I reject your source, as their stated objective is to show (at most) part of the information in question.

That is your right to reject it, although I'm not sure why you reject it.  If it is showing an abbreviated part of information, it doesn't mean it is wrong.  That in itself doesn't seem a logical reason to reject it.

The five points are given.  It is fairly lengthy.  I imagine much more could be written on the subject of the inspiration of the scriptures, but this is a summary of some of the main points. 

 

Edited May 1, 2017 by blackbird

[betsy]

2 hours ago, Omni said:

The adherents of the second largest religion on the planet would disagree with that thought.

 

Who cares.  This is not about what they think.  It's about what we can support with reason, or prove.

[blackbird]

4 minutes ago, Omni said:

So you only accept your book as 'the" book and everyone else is blind for preferring their book. That sounds strangely like blondness in my book.

I never said I accept it arbitrarily.   Earlier I gave the link with the five points expounded as to why it is inspired scripture.  So my belief is based on facts.  If you want to accuse me of blindly accepting it, you are ignoring the information and link I posted. 

[Omni]

1 minute ago, blackbird said:

I never said I accept it arbitrarily.   Earlier I gave the link with the five points expounded as to why it is inspired scripture.  So my belief is based on facts.  If you want to accuse me of blindly accepting it, you are ignoring the information and link I posted. 

I imagine 1.6 billion Muslim's accept their book arbitrarily either.

[blackbird]

Just now, Omni said:

I imagine 1.6 billion Muslim's accept their book arbitrarily either.

Sounds like you don't bother reading what I posted.  I said I accept the Bible based on facts, not on arbitrary claims. 

 

[Omni]

Just now, blackbird said:

Sounds like you don't bother reading what I posted.  I said I accept the Bible based on facts, not on arbitrary claims. 

 

You maybe said, but that doesn't mean I accept. How is the bible any less arbitrary than the koran? 

[blackbird]

4 minutes ago, Omni said:

You maybe said, but that doesn't mean I accept. How is the bible any less arbitrary than the koran? 

I just finished earlier posting the link which gives an fairly lengthy explanation of the five points why the Bible should be accepted as inspired by God.

And now you are asking why the Bible is any less arbitrary than the Quran?  Go to this link and if you care to, you can read the five points and consider them.

http://www.genesispark.com/essays/gods-word/

Once you have read the five points and digested them, then perhaps we can have a rational discussion based on information rather than one word.

Edited May 1, 2017 by blackbird

[Michael Hardner]

15 minutes ago, blackbird said:

 1) If it is showing an abbreviated part of information, it doesn't mean it is wrong.  

 2) I imagine much more could be written on the subject of the inspiration of the scriptures, but this is a summary of some of the main points. 

 

1) That is too low a bar for me to use as evidence, "it might not be wrong".  

2) This is good for people of faith, I concur.

[blackbird]

1 minute ago, Michael Hardner said:

1) That is too low a bar for me to use as evidence, "it might not be wrong".  

2) This is good for people of faith, I concur.

Well sir, somebody earlier asked the question as to how I know the Bible is inspired.  I have given this information to show why I believe it is inspired.  I know it might not be good enough for everyone's taste, but there it is for what it's worth.  You can reject it or consider it as you prefer.