Can You Be Good Without God?

[eyeball]

13 minutes ago, betsy said:

Don't we try to get the opposition to end up agreeing with us - no matter what the subject is?

We try, but usually fail.

I can't recall a single mind being changed around here, can you?

[eyeball]

42 minutes ago, blackbird said:

I'm glad you choose to be good.  But the point I made earlier is that the bible says none are good.  It says All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.  Do you accept the inspiration and authority of the bible?

Not at all. I try my best to subscribe to a precept mentioned in the bible, that of doing to others as I'd have them do to me.  But that's a pretty simple, commonsensical thing that can be taught and learned in a playschool. Neanderthals and Cro Magnons probably even managed to figure this one out on their own.

Edited March 31, 2017 by eyeball

[blackbird]

1 hour ago, bcsapper said:

.  All are works of fiction and as such, have no say in whether or not I am good.

  Have you read part of it?  How do you come to the conclusion it is fiction?

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, blackbird said:

  Have you read part of it?  How do you come to the conclusion it is fiction?

How does one come to a conclusion about anything?  I weighed the evidence, unconsciously, I suppose, because I don't remember doing it, and fiction was the end result.

[eyeball]

My own conclusion about the bibles ficticiousness stems from the utter lack of any evidence for the supernatural phenomenon it routinely mentions right from page one on.

What is it that believers don't get about people's conclusions in this regard?

[dialamah]

I read lots of it and I BELIEVED!  Then I didn't.  And strangely to those who still believe, I'm happier.

[-TSS-]

I have often wondered how was it possible that when Russia conquered Finland in 1809 and held it until 1917 it never made any concerted effort to convert Finns to the Russian Orthodox religion. Afyer all, usually colonisers always force their colonies to convert to the colonisers religion. To this day only 1% of Finns are of the Russian Orthodox religion. Lutheranism is the so-called state-religion.

I'm glad to say that belonging to any religion has gone down and very fast in Finland today. In1990 about 90% of the population were still Lutherans but today that proportion is 72% and decling fast. I left that bollocks of a religion as soon as I was 18.

[-TSS-]

In the Scandinavian Lutheran countries people concretly either belong or don't belong to the church. If you belong to the church you pay taxes to the church. At least that is the case here in Finland. The church-tax is about 1% of your income depending on the area where you live in.

As I earlier said, the church-membership has gone down from 90% in the 1990's to the current 72% butit really beats the hell out of me how rich we people in Finland are! Namely, even 72% of the population are happy to pay 1% of their income to pay for the wages of the priests and bishops and advance the bollocks the church is advocating.

Imagine yourselves in Canada and think of 1% of your income per year and think would you rather keep that money yourself or would you kindly give it to some ridiculous church. Apparently still 72% of Finns rather pay for the wages of bishops rather than take an extra foreign holiday every year.

[blackbird]

1 hour ago, eyeball said:

My own conclusion about the bibles ficticiousness stems from the utter lack of any evidence for the supernatural phenomenon it routinely mentions right from page one on.

What is it that believers don't get about people's conclusions in this regard?

If you don't consider eyewitnesses as evidence then of course you won't see any.  But maybe you haven't read it with an open mind.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, blackbird said:

If you don't consider eyewitnesses as evidence then of course you won't see any.  But maybe you haven't read it with an open mind.

Eyewitnesses are unreliable, as is the transfer of information over time and languages.  Plus, people lie sometimes.

Edited April 1, 2017 by bcsapper

[eyeball]

2 minutes ago, blackbird said:

If you don't consider eyewitnesses as evidence then of course you won't see any.  But maybe you haven't read it with an open mind.

Are you as open-minded about UFO sightings?

I'm quite serious even if this is also a trick question.

[blackbird]

4 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

Eyewitnesses are unreliable, as is the transfer of information over time and languages.  Plus, people lie sometimes.

The eyewitnesses were chosen by God and given a special role.  That means they could not be unreliable in what they recorded.  You have to remember the bible is a supernatural book produced by an infinitely powerful God.

You are unaware of the fact that God inspired men to write the bible and promised to preserve it.  So he oversaw the preservation of it in the King James Authorized Bible in the English language.  It is preserved in other languages as well of course.  This overcame the problem of languages, time, and people's character.  The KJV is with us today as clearly as it was in the original languages two thousand years ago.

[blackbird]

6 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Are you as open-minded about UFO sightings?

I'm quite serious even if this is also a trick question.

UFO claims may or may not have something to it.  I have no way of knowing.

[eyeball]

Just now, blackbird said:

UFO claims may or may not have something to it.  I have no way of knowing.

You know eyewitness make up the vast bulk of evidence for UFO claims so why wouldn't you know that given your faith in witnesses?  What is there to even think about, the claims must ring just as true. I'm talking about thousands and perhaps millions of living witnesses not the witnesses recorded in a book that's hundreds and hundred of years old.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, blackbird said:

The eyewitnesses were chosen by God and given a special role.  That means they could not be unreliable in what they recorded.  You have to remember the bible is a supernatural book produced by an infinitely powerful God.

You are unaware of the fact that God inspired men to write the bible and promised to preserve it.  So he oversaw the preservation of it in the King James Authorized Bible in the English language.  It is preserved in other languages as well of course.  This overcame the problem of languages, time, and people's character.  The KJV is with us today as clearly as it was in the original languages two thousand years ago.

There's a name for that but it escapes me at the moment.  Your God exists because the Bible says so, and The Bible says so because your God exists.

[eyeball]

12 minutes ago, eyeball said:

You know eyewitness make up the vast bulk of evidence for UFO claims so why wouldn't you know that given your faith in witnesses?  What is there to even think about, the claims must ring just as true. I'm talking about thousands and perhaps millions of living witnesses not the witnesses recorded in a book that's hundreds and hundred of years old.

 

 

19 minutes ago, blackbird said:

The eyewitnesses were chosen by God and given a special role.  That means they could not be unreliable in what they recorded.  You have to remember the bible is a supernatural book produced by an infinitely powerful God.

 

Ah...right, I missed this.

No need to respond.

[blackbird]

19 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

There's a name for that but it escapes me at the moment.  Your God exists because the Bible says so, and The Bible says so because your God exists.

The Bible is one source of evidence.  The other source is the creation of everything. 

[betsy]

Non-believers can be good.  You don't have to believe to be good.  That's not the issue, though.

 

Can you be good without God?  The OP video explains in the simplest way possible, why you can't.

[betsy]

8 hours ago, eyeball said:

Are you as open-minded about UFO sightings?

I'm quite serious even if this is also a trick question.

 

Yes, I am.  Are you?

No question that not all sightings are alien spaceships....but unless proven a sighting is not, there is the possibility that it is.

 

 

Edited April 1, 2017 by betsy

[betsy]

12 hours ago, eyeball said:

We try, but usually fail.

I can't recall a single mind being changed around here, can you?

It doesn't matter whether we fail or not.  When we discuss with an opposition - the aim is to explain our position/issue in order to sway them to see our point of view, and hopefully to get them to agree. It doesn't matter what issue it is.  It could even be how to care for a dog.

Besides, how do you know "usually they fail?"  Do you know what's in the mind of every person?  How do you know something that was said yesterday wouldn't have any bearing on a person changing his mind two years from now?

 

You don't seriously think conversion happens instantly, do you? I mean it can happen (if God intervenes and does it right on the spot).  A lot of paths to conversions had taken a long time happening.  Though I was born and raised a Christian, it took me decades to become a Christian.  And when I did, my life took a turn and I was swept up in one "adventure" after another - and it seems I had no control of anything that's happening, and I just went with the flow.

  I know non-believers, especially atheists may say I'm weird....or I'm going nuts here.....but I tell you that I have lots of personal experiences that God is real.....and that prayers are answered (sometimes, instantly).  There are millions of testimonies by so many people of their personal encounter with God, and I believe them........because it happened to me!

Edited April 1, 2017 by betsy

[Peter F]

6 hours ago, betsy said:

Non-believers can be good.  You don't have to believe to be good.  That's not the issue, though.

 

Can you be good without God?  The OP video explains in the simplest way possible, why you can't.

I don't think the video explains that at all. The video assumes God = good.  It is a subjective assumption. I can imagine an existence without God and I expect good would still exist.  The video shows misfortune befalling someone whose wallet is then taken by someone else. The victim feels a great injustice has been perpetrated and the video then proclaims the victim appealing to objective good. Therefore God.    However that argument fails to recognize the good that fell upon the bandit who picked up the wallet. The video assumes that a personal or societal 'good' applies always and at all times to all people.  Good is always subjective not objective. According to the video that means there is no God. Yet good befell the bandit and possibly his children and the sun still shone warming the earth, plants grew and people laughed.

In my subjective opinion, it doesn't matter one whit wether Good is subjective or objective.  Without God, Good can still exist just as it can with God.

[dialamah]

I remember one of my first doubts on my way out of Christianity was the idea that if I was good, or if anything good befell me - that was God's work, God's gift - it was not done due to my efforts, and to think so put me on a collision course with God.    

On the other hand, if anything bad happened to me - that was my fault.  I'd failed in some way so that I deserved this 'bad' thing that God allowed to happen to me.   It didn't matter if I had no clue what I'd done wrong, it was still my fault and it was up to me to seek God's mercy and forgiveness, to atone for the 'bad' thing I wasn't even sure about.    

I couldn't get over the arbitrary nature of this system or that it wasn't a bind I'd put my own beloved children in - why would a God who was all-wise and loving do so?

 

[blackbird]

41 minutes ago, Peter F said:

I don't think the video explains that at all. The video assumes God = good.  It is a subjective assumption. I can imagine an existence without God and I expect good would still exist.  The video shows misfortune befalling someone whose wallet is then taken by someone else. The victim feels a great injustice has been perpetrated and the video then proclaims the victim appealing to objective good. Therefore God.    However that argument fails to recognize the good that fell upon the bandit who picked up the wallet. The video assumes that a personal or societal 'good' applies always and at all times to all people.  Good is always subjective not objective. According to the video that means there is no God. Yet good befell the bandit and possibly his children and the sun still shone warming the earth, plants grew and people laughed.

In my subjective opinion, it doesn't matter one whit wether Good is subjective or objective.  Without God, Good can still exist just as it can with God.

Depends on the definition of good.

[betsy]

45 minutes ago, Peter F said:

I don't think the video explains that at all. The video assumes God = good.  It is a subjective assumption. I can imagine an existence without God and I expect good would still exist.  The video shows misfortune befalling someone whose wallet is then taken by someone else. The victim feels a great injustice has been perpetrated and the video then proclaims the victim appealing to objective good. Therefore God.    However that argument fails to recognize the good that fell upon the bandit who picked up the wallet. The video assumes that a personal or societal 'good' applies always and at all times to all people.  Good is always subjective not objective. According to the video that means there is no God. Yet good befell the bandit and possibly his children and the sun still shone warming the earth, plants grew and people laughed.

In my subjective opinion, it doesn't matter one whit wether Good is subjective or objective.  Without God, Good can still exist just as it can with God.

You're missing the point Peter.

Yes, without God you can imagine what you think "good" would be like......and I can also have my own interpretation of what "good" would be like.  

However,  WITHOUT A STANDARD OF WHAT GOOD IS, we won't be having the same idea of what it is!  There wouldn't be a collective idea (among various cultures) of what is right and wrong! 

Edited April 1, 2017 by betsy

[betsy]

12 minutes ago, dialamah said:

I remember one of my first doubts on my way out of Christianity was the idea that if I was good, or if anything good befell me - that was God's work, God's gift - it was not done due to my efforts, and to think so put me on a collision course with God.    

On the other hand, if anything bad happened to me - that was my fault.  I'd failed in some way so that I deserved this 'bad' thing that God allowed to happen to me.   It didn't matter if I had no clue what I'd done wrong, it was still my fault and it was up to me to seek God's mercy and forgiveness, to atone for the 'bad' thing I wasn't even sure about.    

I couldn't get over the arbitrary nature of this system or that it wasn't a bind I'd put my own beloved children in - why would a God who was all-wise and loving do so?

 

 

Some people mistakenly think that having something bad happen to you is your fault - that you are being punished by God for something you must've done.  Remember the story of Job - how his friends kept insisting that he must've displeased God in some way?  

We're going through life in this world.  The sun shines and sets on both the believers and non-believers.  It rains on the righteous and unrighteous.  That's just the way life is.