blackbird Posted March 10, 2017 Report Share Posted March 10, 2017 3 minutes ago, ?Impact said: So does that mean there is a third place you can go? Once you enter the system, are you compelled to stay? I'm not sure I said that would give you that idea. There is no third place. RCC teaches there is a purgatory but that is an invention of men. There are only two places. "are you compelled to stay?" Are you being facitious? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dialamah Posted March 10, 2017 Report Share Posted March 10, 2017 1 minute ago, Goddess said: Then why keep stifling discussion on Islam by bringing up Christianity? What??? How is bringing up the fact that, for instance, practices you want to blame Islam for are also practiced by Christians stifle discussion? Could it be because it reduces your justification for hating and fearing Islam and Muslims? FGM is horrific whether it's practiced by Muslims or Christians. Pretending it's "an Islamic problem" is not a solution and it's not even a discussion. It's fear-mongering. Honor killings are unacceptable, whether practiced by Muslims, Hindus or Christians. Pretending it's "an Islamic problem" is not a solution and it's not a discussion. If people want to address inhumane practices that target women, then address them. Don't bring them up to justify hating/fearing Muslims or Islam when the same practices are carried out across multiple religions and countries. The only common Muslim practice that I can identify that is specifically Islamic is penalties for apostasy, whatever they are. 8 minutes ago, Goddess said: It doesn't matter what anyone says, you pipe up with some obscure or ancient (or sometimes applicable ) example of Christians. Because far too many people are willing to give a pass to Christians that they won't give to Muslims. 11 minutes ago, Goddess said: I feel like Christianity has been divesting itself of many problems for quite a while. Obviously there is still work to do, but strides have been made. And as I said before, I agree they were basically forced by public opinion to change. It has in secularised countries. But in some countries in which Christianity holds sway among the populace and government, not so much. High religiosity among society seems to be a problem in hindering human rights, not which religion happens to be dominant in that society. 14 minutes ago, Goddess said: How will Islam be motivated to change if we keep saying, "Oh well, other people did the same in the past." or "Oh, look! some obscure Christian group is doing the same right now." Islam is motivated to change: Tunisia is making an effort and there are many groups and individuals within Muslim-majority countries who are working to change things, including religious and political leaders. It is a very slow process. And sometimes appears to be going backwards, although I hope that's part of death throes or something. Why can't we focus on the ways in which individuals and groups within Islam are trying to change things, instead of this constant "Islam is evil; look at what they do". How does that help, exactly? What does it do but inform public opinion about Muslims, often inaccurately? A public attitude that views Muslims as barbaric, ignorant, violent and misogynistic is simply going to make it that much more difficult for Muslims who want equality, peace and tolerance - the constant refrain of "Muslims believe this (horrible thing)" without any sense of perspective simply does not help. Back to child marriage: A single hadith claims Aisha was six years old at marriage. Other references of the same era suggest she was older, between 9 and 12 - which would have been the "norm" in that time. Some scholars think she was much older, around 19. Yet, the only information you have been willing to accept is that she was six years old at marriage, that Muslims practice child marriage and that Islam is somehow responsible for the worldwide problem of child-marriage. Perhaps a little less focus on vilifying all Muslims for practices that are common around them, or throughout history, would lessen my tendency to point out that these are not Islamic issues, but cultural ones. 29 minutes ago, Goddess said: If we all officially acknowledge that we believe there were problems in Christianity and that there continue to be some problems in Christianity, will we then be allowed to discuss what's going on in Islam without having the gameboard tossed across the room? If you don't want the gameboard tossed across the room, try accepting that often what you believe is true about Muslims and Islam, because DoP said it or because you read it on "answeringislam" or "thereligionofpeace" might be completely wrong, wildly exagerated, or controversial even among Muslims. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbird Posted March 10, 2017 Report Share Posted March 10, 2017 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Altai said: Hello sir, I am the owner of this topic and I am trying to keep it within boundaries. Altai, The subject is "Are You Ruled by Sharia". I would have to say no, I am not. I am not a Muslim. I understand Sharia is part of Islam. We in most western countries do not have or recognize Sharia Law. That is something unique to Islamic countries. I am a believer in Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour. The bible makes it clear he is the only way to heaven as I said in verses I quoted. I understand the Quran was written in the 7th century or about 1300 or 1400 years ago. Do you have a Holy Bible? The Bible was written over a period of about 1500 years starting 3,500 years ago by about 40 different writers I believe. The bible records many miracles which help to verify it's truth and authority. Jesus was raised from the dead and seen after the resurrection by many eyewitnesses. This proves Jesus is the Messiah or Saviour as he said. There are many prophecies in the Old Testament which were later fulfilled. Fulfilled prophecy is more proof of the truth of the Bible and proves it is God's word to men. Can you prove the Quran came from God? Quote Edited March 10, 2017 by blackbird Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altai Posted March 10, 2017 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2017 1 hour ago, blackbird said: . Can you prove the Quran came from God? Yes I can prove but first of all you should believe in God/Gods and then we could discuss it in another topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altai Posted March 10, 2017 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2017 Sharia rules over people with "democracy", centuries before than the day people discovered the term "democracy". Verse 42:38 says that Muslims do their social affairs with meetings and by taking advices from each other. Verse 3:159 wants prophet to make meetings and wants Muslims to exchange their ideas with each other before making decisions about something. Verse 4:59 wants people to obey state officials. Verse 2:256 there is no compulsion in the system. You are against Sharia despite you are also ruled by Sharia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbird Posted March 10, 2017 Report Share Posted March 10, 2017 3 minutes ago, Altai said: Yes I can prove but first of all you should believe in God/Gods and then we could discuss it in another topic. 4 minutes ago, Altai said: Yes I can prove but first of all you should believe in God/Gods and then we could discuss it in another topic. I am a believer in God, just not the god of Sharia Law. The topic is Sharia Law so you should be prepared to defend it or acknowledge it is incorrect. Sharia Law, which you are promoting, is open to be examined in this thread correct? Or do you subscribe to the idea nobody can question it? You quoted some verses from the Quran. Again, can you prove the Quran is from God? What evidence do you have. If Sharia Law is based on the Quran, don't you think that is a good question. Prove the Quran/Sharia Law came from God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
?Impact Posted March 10, 2017 Report Share Posted March 10, 2017 8 minutes ago, blackbird said: The bible records many miracles which help to verify it's truth and authority. ... Can you prove the Quran came from God? Yet the Bible is written by man and it could be a history, or it could be fiction. More than likely it is fiction based on some historical facts, something we are very familiar with in modern movies. In your own words, the Bible is inspired by God and written by man. The Quran is the word of God, recorded by a man. Both of those require faith in something that cannot be proven. I choose to question both of them, but accept there are people who have the faith on either side and I regard their faith equally. 2 minutes ago, Altai said: You are against Sharia despite you are also ruled by Sharia Certainly there are parts of Sharia that are compatible with western society. There are many other parts that are incompatible, and certainly those are the parts that many focus on. This also gets back to my earlier question back at the start of this thread dealing with Sharia being the law one chooses to govern ones own life versus the law that some people choose to enforce on others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altai Posted March 10, 2017 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, blackbird said: I am a believer in God, just not the god of Sharia Law. The topic is Sharia Law so you should be prepared to defend it or acknowledge it is incorrect. Sharia Law, which you are promoting, is open to be examined in this thread correct? Or do you subscribe to the idea nobody can question it? You quoted some verses from the Quran. Again, can you prove the Quran is from God? What evidence do you have. If Sharia Law is based on the Quran, don't you think that is a good question. Prove the Quran/Sharia Law came from God. Your question is complately irrelevant with this topic. This topic is about how Sharia and state laws are similar even same with each other and how illogical and unfair is the non-similar ones. Please read the OP. Edited March 10, 2017 by Altai Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbird Posted March 10, 2017 Report Share Posted March 10, 2017 3 minutes ago, ?Impact said: Yet the Bible is written by man and it could be a history, or it could be fiction. More than likely it is fiction based on some historical facts, something we are very familiar with in modern movies. "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works." 2 Timothy ch 3 vs 16, 17. The bible was written by men acting under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit as the above verse teaches. The Old Testament does contain a lot of history of people of Israel because they were God's chosen people and were the people through whom God chose the prophets to write the Old Testament. It is not fiction. Many prophets had encounters with God and God showed them his miraculous power as in the exodus from Eygpt. God parted the Red Sea so that the children of Israel could cross and escape the Egyptians. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altai Posted March 10, 2017 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2017 1 hour ago, ?Impact said: Certainly there are parts of Sharia that are compatible with western society. There are many other parts that are incompatible, and certainly those are the parts that many focus on. This also gets back to my earlier question back at the start of this thread dealing with Sharia being the law one chooses to govern ones own life versus the law that some people choose to enforce on others. Give an example of incompatible ones ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dialamah Posted March 10, 2017 Report Share Posted March 10, 2017 1 minute ago, Altai said: Give an example of incompatible ones ? Tax on Jews/non-Muslims in Muslim countries. Word of a woman is worth less than the word of a man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbird Posted March 10, 2017 Report Share Posted March 10, 2017 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Altai said: Your question is complately irrelevant with this topic. This topic is about how Sharia and state laws are similar even same with each other and how illogical and unfair is the non-similar ones. Please read the OP. If you are advocating Sharia Law, it is a fair question to ask you why you support Sharia Law. Are you being evasive? Sharia Law is a religious law so please give some proof as to why you think it came from God. If you can't prove it is from God, then why follow it? Is it a man-made law? What is OP? Edited March 10, 2017 by blackbird Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altai Posted March 10, 2017 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2017 1 hour ago, dialamah said: Tax on Jews/non-Muslims in Muslim countries. Word of a woman is worth less than the word of a man. Verses please ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbird Posted March 10, 2017 Report Share Posted March 10, 2017 I assume Sharia Law is based on the Quran. So I think it is a fair question to ask Atlia to at least give some evidence the Quran (and Sharia Law) came from God. If it is not of God, then it must be invented by men. On the other hand I have pointed out the Bible is full of miracles that prove it came from God. I gave the example of the parting of the Red Sea to allow the children of Israel under the leadship of Moses to escape from captivity in Egypt. That miracle alone demonstrates the Bible is inspired by God. Is there any evidence at all the Quran (and Sharia Law) came from God? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dialamah Posted March 10, 2017 Report Share Posted March 10, 2017 Just now, Altai said: Verses please ? Quran 9.29: Jizyah be levied on those who have been conquered until they convert to Islam. Quran 4.11: A man's inheritance is twice that of a woman Quran 2.282: Two men or one man and two women to be called as witnesses, suggesting a woman's word is worth half that of a man's. Quran 2.228: Men are a degree above women Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dialamah Posted March 10, 2017 Report Share Posted March 10, 2017 Just now, blackbird said: I assume Sharia Law is based on the Quran. So I think it is a fair question to ask Atlia to at least give some evidence the Quran (and Sharia Law) came from God. If it is not of God, then it must be invented by men. On the other hand I have pointed out the Bible is full of miracles that prove it came from God. I gave the example of the parting of the Red Sea to allow the children of Israel under the leadship of Moses to escape from captivity in Egypt. That miracle alone demonstrates the Bible is inspired by God. Is there any evidence at all the Quran (and Sharia Law) came from God? The evidence she will give is the same evidence you would give: the stories and the book are their own proof. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbird Posted March 10, 2017 Report Share Posted March 10, 2017 3 minutes ago, dialamah said: The evidence she will give is the same evidence you would give: the stories and the book are their own proof. That is where you err, not being a believer. There is a world of difference between the Bible and Quran. I don't think she can or will give any evidence. I can give all kinds of evidence. For one thing, Jesus raised the dead, healed the blind so they could see again and was raised from the dead himself. After the resurrection he was seen by many eyewitnesses. If you accept a number of eyewitnesses in a court of law to verify the truth of something, why would you not accept a number of eyewitnesses as recorded in the Bible? Altai might consider this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
?Impact Posted March 10, 2017 Report Share Posted March 10, 2017 Just now, blackbird said: I assume Sharia Law is based on the Quran. Again that gets back to my earlier question way back at the start of the thread. Yes, Sharia has its foundation in the Quran but there are many other parts of what man considers Sharia law that go beyond the Quran. Some of them are based on the recorded life of Muhammad (sunnah), others are based on interpretation through deductive reasoning (qiyas) and consensus amongst men (ijma). That is further complicated by the many diverse legal bodies (Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi'i, Hanbali and Jafari). Some Muslims make a distinction between Sharia as the divine law of God that they must follow, and fiqh as the interpretation of that law by man. That is why I keep asking, but not getting a clear answer on, is Sharia something one must follow as a Muslim or is it something that one man enforces on another. I accept the first, and reject the second. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
?Impact Posted March 10, 2017 Report Share Posted March 10, 2017 2 minutes ago, blackbird said: If you accept a number of eyewitnesses in a court of law to verify the truth of something, why would you not accept a number of eyewitnesses as recorded in the Bible? There is a difference between testimony under oath and cross examination and stories one tells. I don't accept the 911 truthers, but they sure can spin a yarn. That being said, we all know that there are countless examples of faulty eyewitness testimony, why should we believe ones that have been recorded 2000 years ago? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dialamah Posted March 10, 2017 Report Share Posted March 10, 2017 3 minutes ago, blackbird said: That is where you err, not being a believer. There is a world of difference between the Bible and Quran. No there isn't. As a matter of fact on my first introduction to Muslims and the Quran, I was amazed at how similar they are. If both Christians and Muslims followed biblical and quranic passages regarding tolerance, peace and acceptance, they'd be essentially indistinguishable. If they all followed respective passages regarding punishing people for disapproved behavior, they'd be equally indistinguishable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altai Posted March 10, 2017 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2017 1 hour ago, dialamah said: Quran 9.29: Jizyah be levied on those who have been conquered until they convert to Islam. Quran 4.11: A man's inheritance is twice that of a woman Quran 2.282: Two men or one man and two women to be called as witnesses, suggesting a woman's word is worth half that of a man's. Quran 2.228: Men are a degree above women - The word jizyah derives from "cezaya" which means punishment. We also have the same word in Turkish as a result of interaction with Arabic and it means the same thing, so punishment. In Arabic, the word "dariba" means tax. So the word "Jizyah" is used to describe war reparations. - Men gets the heritage twice more than women because men "have to" work and they "have to" meet all needs of their wife and family. Women "dont have to" work and they are only responsible of raising and educating their children and take care of their husband, they dont have to work. - Men are much more familiar with financial affairs because of their responsibilities while women dont have to be familiar with it because of their responsibilities. Men are much more strong and tough due to their nature while women are much more elegant and fearful because of their nature. Therefore Allah wants women to support each other. - Both wife and husband have rights on each other but husbands have a bit more rights because they are responsible to ensure good living conditions for their family while there is no such an obligation for wifes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbird Posted March 10, 2017 Report Share Posted March 10, 2017 13 minutes ago, dialamah said: No there isn't. As a matter of fact on my first introduction to Muslims and the Quran, I was amazed at how similar they are. If both Christians and Muslims followed biblical and quranic passages regarding tolerance, peace and acceptance, they'd be essentially indistinguishable. If they all followed respective passages regarding punishing people for disapproved behavior, they'd be equally indistinguishable. It shows you haven't really studied the Bible. The words tolerance, peace and acceptance are your idea, but not the main message of the bible. There are modernist liberal churches who might preach that, but it is not the gospel. That is more a liberal ideology. I'm not sure what you mean by "tolerance". The bible does teach to love they neighbour as thyself. But Jesus did not teach to agree with or accept those who are in opposition to him or his teachings. There are places in the bible where being at peace with your neighbour is taught. But the central message of the Bible is Jesus Christ. The New Testament for example especially focuses on Jesus Christ as the Son of God and Saviour. There is no similar central message in the Quran. The teachings in the Quran saying to treat opponents harshly or to tax non-believers have no similarity in the Bible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
?Impact Posted March 10, 2017 Report Share Posted March 10, 2017 13 minutes ago, Altai said: re: Quran 4.11, Quran 2.282, Quran 2.228 Certainly there have been historical and cultural differences between men and women, but do those hold true today. Yes, the biological differences do mean women must bear the children but all the responsibilities of working and providing for a family can be indistinguishable in the modern world. Very few jobs require women to go out and plough the filed while they are pregnant, they can work in an office right up until delivery without any complications and return fairly shortly after. There are technology solutions like breast pumps that allow them to address their biological function in those months after work, and even far better social solutions like employer daycare or the father taking care of the children and bringing them to mom for feeding. Do the above cited verses of the Quran have applicability in the modern world? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
?Impact Posted March 10, 2017 Report Share Posted March 10, 2017 7 minutes ago, blackbird said: The teachings in the Quran saying to treat opponents harshly or to tax non-believers have no similarity in the Bible. Oh, come on. Are we going to play that old new testament/old testament game when you refuse to denounce the old testament and don't respond to passages in the new testament that are equally bad including the one I cited yesterday that is also the spoken word of Jesus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goddess Posted March 10, 2017 Report Share Posted March 10, 2017 1 hour ago, dialamah said: If you don't want the gameboard tossed across the room, try accepting that often what you believe is true about Muslims and Islam, because DoP said it or because you read it on "answeringislam" or "thereligionofpeace" might be completely wrong, wildly exagerated, or controversial even among Muslims. I do that. Rarely do I reference anything that is obviously biased against Islam, in fact, I have often stopped reading things that I feel are not fair. And I deliberately focus on things that look at the issues fairly - I've posted the books and articles I've read. The difference between us is that I also reject Muslim propoganda. You don't seem to want accept that what you say Muslims want or think is in any way colored by your own beliefs and experiences, or in fact, could be wrong or outright lies. I resent the constant accusations of racist, islamophobe, hater, etc....If you think for one minute that I am the type of person who would walk up to a woman in hijab and rip it off her head or scream at her....you're very wrong. In fact, every time I have been screamed at, attacked, slapped by Muslims....I have reacted as calmly as I always do. Anyone who knows me even a little, would disagree vehemently with your assessment of me. Don't be so quick to judge Some of your other points I will consider thoughtfully and carefully. Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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