Justin Trudeau the Worst PM Since Pierre Trudeau?

[bush_cheney2004]

Just now, montgomery said:

Trump is an example of conservatism out of control and which has become fascism. Little Scheer has the same pllans for Canada and will become just like Trump if given the opportunity. First to go will be our universal health care system. The Cons favourite think tank, the Fraser Institute, already have the plans drawn up for US style for-profit heatlh care for Canada, under the guise of a two-tiered system.

 

Trump is not a conservative, and does not hold office in Canada, which already has a two-tiered sick care system.

[Zeitgeist]

3 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

Our proud military heritage is long ago and far away, based on your previous posts , you seem to grasp that Canada has been on a trajectory to becoming a Trudeaupian Post Military Nation since 1967.  See, what happened was, in the Cuban Missile Crisis, the Canadian military, in effect, mutinied against the Government of Canada, Dief wanted them to stand down, because he didn't see any point in escalating in the face of strategic nuclear war,  no win situation, negotiation to a climb down was the only way out, but the military chiefs ignored the government and instead just started taking their orders from the Americans.  

 

That broke civil military relations in Canada for all time, that's why the Liberals amalgamated the services, to undercut the military brass who they no longer could trust.  Basically, the Government of Canada views the military as an American fifth column which serves Washington not Ottawa, and so they've been trying to dismantle it ever since, slowly but surely as to not cause alarm, but inexorable recreating it as an armed constabularly which is small enough and weak enough so they can control it.

They're not going to come out and state this puublically, but  the politicians in this country do not trust the military and see it as a force for micheif and not much else.

See; trying to destroy Vice Admiral Mark Norman, just for doing his job, because he bucked them, he didn't crony to them, so that spooked the Gov. and that's why they are trying to make an example of him right now, to send a message to the rest of the brass; don't ever try to defy us, not even in the slightest degree.

 

Now, in the context of this paradigm, there's no point in fanatasizing about building up the Canadian military to any significant degree, because they're not going to do it, and no, the Conservatives aren't going to to do it neither, as for all of their posturing about pro military this and that, even the Conservatives do not trust the military.  Nor should they really, because the reality is, the politicians are right,  the Canadian military is working for the Pentagon.   All militaries in the American Hegenomy work for the Pentagon. 

 

Only the Hegemon's can have foreign policies, and the American Hegemon's foreign policy precludes any Canadian independance from the Washington Consensus.

Okay so now we’re having a real conversation.  The Canadian forces AND Ottawa, since WW2, have been essentially under the control of Washington, but really so has the UK, Germany, Japan, France, you get the idea.  Britain knew it couldn’t pay for the rest of the war, let alone the rebuilding of Europe.  The US would take control and the Marshall Plan confirmed this.  It became about being able to outspend on military hardware (Cold War) and controll of the air and seas (NORAD, NATO, Panama and Suez canals, etc.).  Even The Soviets eventually capitulated to this order.  But now Russia and China are getting the itch to expand and Washington doesn’t seem so interested in protecting that order.  A signal is being sent that allies may no longer be able to count on this umbrella.  We have always known in Canada that we couldn’t get too far out there, too far away from US policies, because they have been the market and set the agenda.  

The problem for Canada has been finding a way to remain close to the centre of the umbrella for the right reasons and striking out on its own when it’s important to Canadians, without damaging the integrity of our relationship with allies.  Canada has always done this quite well.  Right now our allies are more worried about where the US is headed, and so are many Americans, because as it becomes more belligerent and an outlier, other powers are making inroads. Canada can’t rely on the US to be responsible.  We hope it will be. We have to plan for every scenario, seeking and protecting alliances that support our values, but also equipping ourselves to defend our values. In the end, that’s always the message that our government and military must serve.  Yes our military is interoperable with the US forces and the British forces.  That’s what it means to be in NATO and to have these alliances.  

[Dougie93]

9 minutes ago, montgomery said:

Trump is an example of conservatism out of control and which has become fascism. Little Scheer has the same pllans for Canada and will become just like Trump if given the opportunity. First to go will be our universal health care system. The Cons favourite think tank, the Fraser Institute, already have the plans drawn up for US style for-profit heatlh care for Canada, under the guise of a two-tiered system.

Trump is not a conservative and never was, big government tax and spend New York liberal.  That being said, the Republicans have transformed themselves several times over the decades, the Republicans actually started off as Jacksonian liberals, used to be the Democrats were the conservative planting aristocracy and the GOP were the "progressives", the GOP has simply come back around full circle to its 19th century roots, although rather then opposing the Know Nothings this time, they've brought them back into the fold.

 

I'm talking about the base here, the base who is overthrowing its own establishment, in the face of the catastrophic military adventures and economic crises incited by the Neocons, but make no mistake, up until Trump saw the opening to make his move, he was a long time Reagan Democrat.

Edited January 5, 2019 by Dougie93

[bush_cheney2004]

5 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

...The problem for Canada has been finding a way to remain close to the centre of the umbrella for the right reasons and striking out on its own when it’s important to Canadians, without damaging the integrity of our relationship with allies.  Canada has always done this quite well. 

 

Not always (e.g. Diefenbaker), but certainly better than Justin Trudeau, who has bungled one of the most important parts of the Canadian PM job description...foreign relations with the U.S. president.   Not too close...not too far....gotta get it just right, and Trudeau cannot do it.

[montgomery]

10 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Not always (e.g. Diefenbaker), but certainly better than Justin Trudeau, who has bungled one of the most important parts of the Canadian PM job description...foreign relations with the U.S. president.   Not too close...not too far....gotta get it just right, and Trudeau cannot do it.

If Americans spend their time whining about Justin, he has to be doing something right! Maybe they have come to understand that Trump is such a deranged psychopath that they need to try to screw up some other countries politics so they won't look so conspicuously evil standing alone?

[Dougie93]

The reason why Gerry Butts and his sock puppet Justin are having difficulty with foreign affairs is that Butts is an entirely domestic political animal, before he started running the whole country into the ditch, he spent the last 13 years running the Province of Ontario into the ditch with Dalton McGuinty and then Kathleen Wynne as his sock puppets.

 

Butts specializes in getting vacuous squishy Liberal dingbats elected in Canada, he hasn't got a clue about things foreign related.  But he doesn't care,  Trump is doing the Trudeaupians a solid by being hostile to them, that alone is likely enough to get them reelected, just running on Trump Derangement Syndrome.

[Argus]

5 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

The realpolitik is that Canadians are simply not prepared to give up their spending on social welfare programs to properly equip the military, so anyway you slice it, our troops will be going in without the equipment they need, wish otherwise all you like, that is what is going to happen.

There is little real opposition to properly equipping the military. The problem is that there also isn't a large constituency demanding it. The politicians place money where they will be rewarded, and they get more rewards (votes) by placing them on programs and services that impact the most potential voters for their party.

The Australians seem to be able to properly equip their military and also have a very generous social welfare state. Why can't we?

 

[Argus]

5 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

Basically, there's only three strategic threats to Canada, one is an American invasion, which, you're not going to be able to stop that with conventional force,

You forget the US government is made up of people. People get greedy. When they think they can take something at no price, a lot of them will have a go. But if you increase the price, that deters the bad behaviour. It's similar to what I said about Russia/Ukraine. Make it an easy walkover and sure, someone will walk. Make it something that's going to require a certain number of deaths and body bags and funerals with crying relatives in front of the cameras and they'll hesitate a lot more.

Not that I think the US would ever want us. It would sway the political picture too much AGAINST whoever was in power when they invaded. Because the US would have to give us all votes, and we'd voted against them.

[Dougie93]

14 minutes ago, Argus said:

You forget the US government is made up of people. People get greedy. When they think they can take something at no price, a lot of them will have a go. But if you increase the price, that deters the bad behaviour. It's similar to what I said about Russia/Ukraine. Make it an easy walkover and sure, someone will walk. Make it something that's going to require a certain number of deaths and body bags and funerals with crying relatives in front of the cameras and they'll hesitate a lot more.

Not that I think the US would ever want us. It would sway the political picture too much AGAINST whoever was in power when they invaded. Because the US would have to give us all votes, and we'd voted against them.

The Americans wouldn't stage it like a blitzkrieg, it wouldn't be a surprise attack, the way to take Canada is to simply incite,  or exploit already in progress civil disorder, then have the sycophants of the Canadian bourgeois political class in Ottawa "invite" them in, to "assist" us.

The way the Americans operate, they wouldn't actually use American troops to gun Canadian resisters down, they'd have their Canadian proxies in the RCMP and military doing it for them.

 

[Argus]

1 minute ago, Dougie93 said:

The Americans wouldn't stage it like a blitzkrieg, it wouldn't be a surprise attack, the way to take Canada is to simply incite,  or exploit already in progress civil disorder, then have the sycophants of the Canadian bourgeois political class in Ottawa "invite" them in, to "assist" us.

The way the Americans operate, they wouldn't actually use American troops to gun Canadian resisters down, they'd have their Canadian proxies in the RCMP and military doing it for them.

You're going too far off the deep end for me to follow, I'm afraid.

And again it leaves aside the boy scout mentality of mandatory democracy, which would mean 10% addition to the other party's voter base.

[Dougie93]

Remember the G20 summit in Toronto?   When they brought cops in from all over the country and then they went nuts and just started to beat the shit out of random people for looking at them funny?  Yeah, well, behind the cops, remaining in reserve, was the Canadian Army, and behind them, in the shadows, was JSOC.   That's just a little teeny taste, they bore their fangs, but only for a moment.

[Dougie93]

8 minutes ago, Argus said:

You're going too far off the deep end for me to follow, I'm afraid.

And again it leaves aside the boy scout mentality of mandatory democracy, which would mean 10% addition to the other party's voter base.

Meh, I'm retired, I've done my bit in terms of leading the troops, I'm not interested in leading you anywhere, I'm not trying to incite an overthrow of Canadian Democracy,  the Cultural Marxists are doing that, I'm just calling it like I see it and then extrapolating the mid to long term ramifications.

[Dougie93]

See, I don't  see this cohort of bubble raised  morally dependent iGen Antifa lunatics as being the end, this is just the first wave, the academics who are orchestrating this Maoist Student Red Guard are not backing down, they are doubling down, so far they've completely subverted the Liberals and the Dippers, and they've got the ConCucks completely intimidated into submission, this is not a passing fad, this is the new normal.

[Dougie93]

It's like when the Americans say "Canada is becoming the first Post Soviet Marxist State", again, can't say that they're wrong, and even though the Cultural Marxists actually spread to Canada from America, they are having exponentially more effects at the highest levels in Canada, because Canada doesn't have the deeply ingrained suspicion of collectivism that Americans do, Canadians are knee jerk collectivists to start off with, two thirds of the country was wannabe commies before these commies even started coming out of the woodwork, so it takes far less of a push to shove Canada into bolshevism and it is digging in much deeper here.

[Dougie93]

Not to mention, vis a vis my de-Confederation doctrine, America doesn't have a Quebec, and even though the Pequistes are in hibernation right now,  that sleeping giant could awaken in a flash, particularly if,  say, the Canadian combined public private Debt Bomb were to explode in the next global financial crisis. 

[Argus]

13 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

Remember the G20 summit in Toronto?   When they brought cops in from all over the country and then they went nuts and just started to beat the shit out of random people for looking at them funny?  Yeah, well, behind the cops, remaining in reserve, was the Canadian Army, and behind them, in the shadows, was JSOC.   That's just a little teeny taste, they bore their fangs, but only for a moment.

Yes, the army is always waiting in the wings to ascertain public order is maintained. That's not a conspiracy but how all governments operate. The incompetence of police in Toronto has been talked about a lot here and believe me my position was that every senior officer in charge ought to have been fired. And btw, the people they were arresting and beating were largely unionists/leftists.

Edited January 6, 2019 by Argus

[Dougie93]

22 minutes ago, Argus said:

Yes, the army is always waiting in the wings to ascertain public order is maintained. That's not a conspiracy but how all governments operate. The incompetence of police in Toronto has been talked about a lot here and believe me my position was that every senior officer in charge ought to have been fired.

I didn't say it was a conspiracy, Canadian authoritarianism is a conspiracy in plain sight, but I served in the Canadian Army long enough to know what it's all about, maybe not quite as brutally repressive as the RCMP, but the  Canadian military behind closed doors despises the Canadian public as a collective, they'd love the chance to sink their teeth into them alongside the Americans, the Canadian Army is with the Americans against the squishy Canadian bourgeoisie, again, not a conspiracy, but when you join the army you are informally indoctrinated to hate the civilian population and blame them for the pathetic state of the Canadian Forces. 

I mean, a lotta crazy shit goes on in the Canadian Army, once in awhile it breaks out into the open like it did in Somalia, but most of the time you never see it, same as with the cops, who are also crazy.

One on one they act civilly, but as a collective, the Canadian Nanny Police State is bitter, disgruntled and mean.  The Canadian military has been  so dysfunctional for so long, the corrosive effects on morale are epidemic and entrenched.

Edited January 6, 2019 by Dougie93

[Dougie93]

Not to mention that, the Marxism/Maoism of the Media Party government is now being imposed on the chain of command who are having to turn around and impose it on the ranks, ramming the Snowflakes down their throats, so that's taking things to a whole nother level of corrosion.

Edited January 6, 2019 by Dougie93

[Zeitgeist]

Except that Canada is increasingly resembling that post-national state Trudeau referenced, a kind of feel good safe haven for rich internationals.  You see it in Vancouver, which is probably the nicest city I’ve ever visited, but it’s a place for the rich.  Everyone without money is essentially down and out.  Is that so different from the US?  Being a bit on the left is a good thing to level the playing field. We know it can’t get too left because our friends will have something to say about it, I’m not too worried.  We’re all up against the same challenges.  China and Russia are in the same boat.  We should all be working together.  Don’t worry about Trudeau. He’s just a Disney Princess as Stephen Colbert said.  Trump is a spoiled child.  Nothing is completely off the rails. 

[Dougie93]

Mind you, there's actually two Canadian military's now, there's the Canadian Armed Forces, and then there's Canadian Special Operations Forces Command, CANSOFCOM is a world unto itself, they get all the budget, they get all the kit, they get all the best training, but because the military doesn't have the mass to support the level pf SOF they are trying to maintain, it's just exacerbating the hollowing out of the rest of the force. 

[montgomery]

Judging by the size of the smackdown of Mulroney in 93, he has to be the worst Prime Minister since John Thiefandfaker. 

Beware of little Scheer who is a carbon copy of both Mulroney and Diefenbaker!

[turningrite]

1 hour ago, montgomery said:

Judging by the size of the smackdown of Mulroney in 93, he has to be the worst Prime Minister since John Thiefandfaker. 

Beware of little Scheer who is a carbon copy of both Mulroney and Diefenbaker!

Scheer is a compromise candidate who was effectively installed as party leader by special interests. If anything, he's too milquetoast to be taken too seriously, which is why the CPC membership could well be vulnerable to its support being encroached on by Bernier's party.

[WestCanMan]

1 minute ago, turningrite said:

Scheer is a compromise candidate who was effectively installed as party leader by special interests. If anything, he's too milquetoast to be taken too seriously, which is why the CPC membership could well be vulnerable to its support being encroached on by Bernier's party.

Scheer is an anti-Trudeau candidate, that's what we need.

Scheer recognizes the fact that Liberal voters are for the most part completely unwilling to see the problems with the Trudeau gov't. Trudeau has the Liberal voters locked up, they're goo in his hands when he starts virtue signalling and denigrating other Canadians. The NDP is crap now, and their voters will stay at home or vote Liberal.

Scheer only has conservative voters and whatever votes he can scrounge from the middle. The only chance for this country to get rid of Trudeau is if Scheer can convince middle of the pack Canadians to come out and vote Conservative.

I agree that Scheer is milquetoast, and that's what he needs to be to defeat Trudeau. Trudeau may be a shallow moron, but he's a virtue signaller par excellence. TRUDEAU WILL LITERALLY EVISCERATE ANY OTHER CANDIDATE IF HE CAN TURN A DEBATE INTO A VIRTUE SIGNALLING COMPETITION. Scheer's personality will keep Trudeau's virtue signalling from becoming a factor.

Mad Max couldn't win over a vote from a traditional Liberal voter in a million years. He might sway a few Canadians from the middle to favour him over Trudeau but not by enough to overcome their voter apathy. Mad Max would be a deer in the headlights in a debate vs Trudeau, because Trudeau can easily paint him as the bogeyman and out him on the defensive. 

Scheer is our only hope. If you care about Canada you need to support Scheer fully. 

[Dougie93]

The odds of a Canadian electorate throwing the bums out after a single term  is pretty slim, usually takes at least two terms before the party in power accrues enough resentment to get rid of them, so I'd brace yourselves for four more years of Zoolander, might be able to knock them down to a minority but I'm expecting the mushy middle to give the Trudeaupians another round, I mean, when was the last Canadian government to be tossed after a single term?  Paul Martin was just an extension of the Chretien government so that doesn't really count.

The bane of Sheer is not even Trudeau, it's Singh, the Cat in the Hat can't win in Quebec and the Liberals have completely co-opted the Dippers platform, Sheer can't win without splitting the left and the Dippers are dead in the water right now, Gerry Butts knows what he's doing, worked for 13 years in Ontario and it will likely work again.

At the end of the day, Canadian elections are not decided on the issues but rather structurally, if the lefties throw their teddies in the corner and split the left by storming off to the Dips, then the Conservatives can win, otherwise buckle up for more of the Natural Ruling Party, because the Gerry Butts strategy of just adopting the NDP platform as the Liberal Party platform pretty much insulates them from lefty teddy throwing for some time yet.

Yes, people are getting annoyed by Trudeau and his shtick, but outside the partisan conservative base, there's no actual rage out there, the mushy middle just ain't that angry.  And no, Western Alienation will not save you, because the West don't matter, all elections are decided in Ontario and Quebec.

The only way the West will ever be free of the Natural Ruling Party in the Iron Triangle of  Toronto-Montreal-Ottawa, is de-Confederation.

Edited January 6, 2019 by Dougie93

[Zeitgeist]

38 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

The odds of a Canadian electorate throwing the bums out after a single term  is pretty slim, usually takes at least two terms before the party in power accrues enough resentment to get rid of them, so I'd brace yourselves for four more years of Zoolander, might be able to knock them down to a minority but I'm expecting the mushy middle to give the Trudeaupians another round, I mean, when was the last Canadian government to be tossed after a single term?  Paul Martin was just an extension of the Chretien government so that doesn't really count.

The bane of Sheer is not even Trudeau, it's Singh, the Cat in the Hat can't win in Quebec and the Liberals have completely co-opted the Dippers platform, Sheer can't win without splitting the left and the Dippers are dead in the water right now, Gerry Butts knows what he's doing, worked for 13 years in Ontario and it will likely work again.

At the end of the day, Canadian elections are not decided on the issues but rather structurally, if the lefties throw their teddies in the corner and split the left by storming off to the Dips, then the Conservatives can win, otherwise buckle up for more of the Natural Ruling Party, because the Gerry Butts strategy of just adopting the NDP platform as the Liberal Party platform pretty much insulates them from lefty teddy throwing for some time yet.

Yes, people are getting annoyed by Trudeau and his shtick, but outside the partisan conservative base, there's no actual rage out there, the mushy middle just ain't that angry.  And no, Western Alienation will not save you, because the West don't matter, all elections are decided in Ontario and Quebec.

The only way the West will ever be free of the Natural Ruling Party in the Iron Triangle of  Toronto-Montreal-Ottawa, is de-Confederation.

I would argue that Ottawa is trying to balance resource and business interests in  Ontario, the Prairies (including Alberta), and Newfoundland (also oil and resource based) against this new Quebec-British Columbia anti-pipeline alliance.  The BC-Quebec axis is a strange alliance because BC never had much time for or understood the French language thing with labels and government services.  The good thing is that it demonstrates that maintaining two official languages in Canada is now uncontroversial. French and English cultures get along well in Canada. It used to be that Ottawa, Montreal, parts of the Maritimes and Manitoba were the only true supporters of the bicultural arrangement.  We’ve overcome that.  Now the issue is, how hard are we going to make it for the oil and gas sector in Canada in the face of challenges from the environmentalists in BC and Quebec?  

Trudeau is trying to walk that line and be a progressive on climate change.  Ironically the Alberta NDP government wanted to have virtue on climate change.  Now that Alberta is struggling to get its oil to markets the blame game has begun.  Albertans remember Trudeau Sr. and the NEP, no matter how hard Jr. tries to convince them that he supports pipelines. I think we may need a different set of political players in Alberta, BC, and Ottawa to get these pipelines built.  It might mean a showdown with BC.  No PM will dare start a showdown with Quebec over Energy East because Quebec is a national unity hornets nest that hasn’t been stirred in ages.  Nobody wants to reopen those wounds. Quebec needs to come to these decisions on its own, which may not happen.