Sam Harris on Bill Maher

[DogOnPorch]

4 minutes ago, Bonam said:

Well the long term way is the same as with Christianity. Over many generations living in stable prosperous countries where the benefits of science and reason and the in-applicability of ancient dogma to modern life are demonstrated every moment of every day, people slowly let go of their superstitions. But that's a centuries-long process, there is of course no "benign way" to "eliminate" any religion on a shorter time scale than centuries. 

 

T'wasn't I that suggested it, actually.

[Bonam]

6 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

T'wasn't I that suggested it, actually.

I know, I saw you were quoting dialamah, I was just speaking to the question. 

[Argus]

38 minutes ago, Bonam said:

Well the long term way is the same as with Christianity. Over many generations living in stable prosperous countries where the benefits of science and reason and the in-applicability of ancient dogma to modern life are demonstrated every moment of every day, people slowly let go of their superstitions. But that's a centuries-long process, there is of course no "benign way" to "eliminate" any religion on a shorter time scale than centuries. 

Well, there the Muslim way. I.e., you invade a country and tell everyone you either convert or we cut your head off...

That worked quite well in an awful lot of countries throughout the Middle East in particular. How many people today realize Egypt used to be a Christian country?

Edited February 9, 2017 by Argus

[dialamah]

2 hours ago, Bonam said:

Well the long term way is the same as with Christianity. Over many generations living in stable prosperous countries where the benefits of science and reason and the in-applicability of ancient dogma to modern life are demonstrated every moment of every day, people slowly let go of their superstitions. But that's a centuries-long process, there is of course no "benign way" to "eliminate" any religion on a shorter time scale than centuries. 

Well said, although I disagree that its a centuries long process.  Consider that gays in Canada were still being arrested in the 70s and that women have only been able to vote for about 100 years.  Within my lifetime, women had to get their husband's permission for birth control and wife-beating may have been frowned upon, but it was still largely socially acceptable and law enforcement rarely got involved.  I think once that progessive trend starts it goes pretty quick, and I think it started with the Arab Spring in the Muslim world.   It may take at least a generation to show real results.  Tunisia is an intersting example of how quickly the changes can be made politically, although complete social change may follow more slowly.

Edited February 9, 2017 by dialamah

[Bonam]

2 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Well said, although I disagree that its a centuries long process.  Consider that gays in Canada were still being arrested in the 70s and that women have only been able to vote for about 100 years.  Within my lifetime, women had to get their husband's permission for birth control and wife-beating may have been frowned upon, but it was still largely socially acceptable and law enforcement rarely got involv

Right but that was all already well along the way to moderating Christianity. Another few generations before that Christians were burning witches, and another few before that, Christians were converting heathens to their religion by the sword. Institutional Christianity reached the peak of its power probably around the 1600s and has been slowly declining for about 400 years to reach the relatively more benign state we now find it in. 

[betsy]

On 2/4/2017 at 11:50 AM, Boges said:

Another Muslim thread. 

This interview last night addresses a lot of the issues we debate on this board. The idea that fundamentalist Islam is not some insignificant fringe of the religion and if any other religion acted this way we wouldn't tolerate it. 

They also bring up the issue that when  moderate Muslims do speak out they're often  shouted down by the left as Uncle Toms.

http://www.salon.com/2017/02/04/watch-sam-harris-tells-bill-maher-we-need-to-win-the-war-of-ideas/

 

 

 

 

Harris is off the mark. 

It's hard to win the war with mere ideas.....when your castle is under sieged , not with just ideas, but with bombs and gunfire.

 

Before you can promote your ideas, you gotta contain and secure the place first.  It's like letting the fox into the hen house - he thinks squawking chickens will be having the time to come up and fight  with mere ideas?

Edited February 10, 2017 by betsy

[Argus]

Robert Fulford talks about what is needed to reform Islam, and quotes Ayaan Hirsi Ali on the need for the US and west to engage Islam in a war of ideas, to challenge the philosophy behind Islam in order to persuade Muslims to reform their religion. And she has no patience for liberals who want to walk delicately around the subject and say nothing to offend Muslims.

Probably to the surprise of her admirers, she sees good intentions in Trump’s executive order about refugees. It was clumsy and confusing but it demonstrated, she says, that Trump has a realistic view of “the hateful ideology of radical Islam” and its continuing threat to democracy. She shows no sympathy for those, like Barack Obama, who could not utter a phrase like “Islamic violence” lest he encourage bigotry.

She cites a survey showing that large numbers of Muslims in many countries believe Sharia law is the word of God and should govern where they live. Many also think Muslims who leave Islam (as Hirsi Ali did) deserve execution, that suicide bombing in defence of Islam can be justified, and that honour killing of women is not always deplorable.

 

http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/robert-fulford-can-islam-be-reformed-who-will-or-even-can-be-a-muslim-martin-luther

[?Impact]

5 hours ago, Argus said:

Robert Fulford talks about what is needed to reform Islam, and quotes Ayaan Hirsi Ali on the need for the US and west to engage Islam in a war of ideas, to challenge the philosophy behind Islam in order to persuade Muslims to reform their religion

Certainly other religions like Christianity and Judaism have had significant reformation movements over the centuries, and created a lot of schisms within them. There are still many Orthodox and Conservative members of those religions as well as the enlightened reformed ones. Are you saying that reformation must be forced on a religion? What differentiates that from banning religions entirely. Many of us think religion is vile, but we accept and allow freedom for the deluded because we have seen that attempts at banning it have not historically worked. Should we discriminate only against certain religions?

[Hal 9000]

After what happened at the West Edmonton pool, maybe women and young girls actually do need to cover up in front of muslims.

 

[Argus]

19 hours ago, ?Impact said:

Certainly other religions like Christianity and Judaism have had significant reformation movements over the centuries, and created a lot of schisms within them. There are still many Orthodox and Conservative members of those religions as well as the enlightened reformed ones. Are you saying that reformation must be forced on a religion?

No, I'm saying that given the power, both secular and moral, that the clerics of the Muslim world have on their adherents, Islam is not about to reform without pressure from outside. Look at Malaysia, where the Islamists have managed to get the Christian governor of Jakarta charged with blaspheme. Why? Because he said his Islamic opponents are misinterpreting a verse in the Koran to say no one should ever vote for a non-Muslim. And Malaysia is supposed to be one of the more 'moderate' Muslim nations.

So if a governor can't even say someone is misinterpreting a verse of the koran what do you think the odds are that some ordinary schmuck is going to say something in the Koran is wrong or was misinterpreted or should be ignored?

And as Ali (and Maher and Harris) says western liberals who bend over backwards to show respect and not give offense to Muslims who express medieval views based on the koran are doing nothing to help those who want Islam to reform.