Sam Harris on Bill Maher

[dialamah]

Just now, Boges said:

Well then we should criticize those people.

1

Yes, we should.   But you didn't answer the question.   Do you think that there would be fewer terrorists if there was no Islam?   

When answering, keep in mind that captured and interviewed terrorists have framed their violence as retaliation against Western imperialism.

 

 

[Boges]

Just now, dialamah said:

Yes, we should.   But you didn't answer the question.   Do you think that there would be fewer terrorists if there was no Islam?   

When answering, keep in mind that captured and interviewed terrorists have framed their violence as retaliation against Western imperialism.

It's a rhetorical question that has no correct answer. I never claimed terrorism wouldn't exist. But right now a certain religion accounts for a extraordinarily large percentage of the world's terrorism. 

We can even set aside the violent faction of Islam as no one thinks terrorism is right. 

It's the idea that moderates Muslims are often shouted down by the left when they speak out against the other problematic elements of Islam, Sharia, Treatment of Women and YES Jihad. 

[Argus]

5 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Yes, we should.   But you didn't answer the question.   Do you think that there would be fewer terrorists if there was no Islam?   

When answering, keep in mind that captured and interviewed terrorists have framed their violence as retaliation against Western imperialism.

Its a ludicrous question given the vast majority of the victims murdered by Muslim terrorists are Muslims.

[DogOnPorch]

11 minutes ago, Argus said:

Its a ludicrous question given the vast majority of the victims murdered by Muslim terrorists are Muslims.

 

Correction: Apostates...Islam has a death warrant for anybody straying from the 'true Islam'...whatever that happens to be this week. Shia and Sunni Islam have been fighting ever since Big Mo's death. Shia = followers of Ali; Sunni = those for Abu Bakr. That is: who got to be promoted from Capo to Boss.

Edited February 8, 2017 by DogOnPorch

[dialamah]

30 minutes ago, Boges said:

 

It's the idea that moderates Muslims are often shouted down by the left when they speak out against the other problematic elements of Islam, Sharia, Treatment of Women and YES Jihad. 

 

I wouldn't agree with that either but can't say I've seen a lot of it.   Perhaps you could provide an example for me?  

What I do see a lot of is 'the left' objecting to alt-right anti-Muslim rhetoric and falsehoods and those objections being termed "shouted down" and "attempt to stop discussion of rational concerns".   

 

[Boges]

Just now, dialamah said:

I wouldn't agree with that either but can't say I've seen a lot of it.   Perhaps you could provide an example for me?  

What I do see a lot of is 'the left' objecting to alt-right anti-Muslim rhetoric and falsehoods and those objections being termed "shouted down" and "attempt to stop discussion of rational concerns".   

 

Did you even watch the video? 

[dialamah]

1 minute ago, Boges said:

Did you even watch the video? 

Nope, it wouldn't work for me for some reason so I read the text below.   Didn't see anything about 'moderate Muslims shouted down by the left'.  I did see a comment that the left wasn't helping, and then a comment about Obama lying about drones.    

I actually agree with much of what I read - for instance, that it's a war of ideas that we need to win.   Also, they felt they would be 'attacked' for saying that women should not be "forced" to wear the hijab.  Now, I agree with this - women should not be forced to wear the hijab, or the burka, or any other religious dress.  But I suspect if I added that neither should they be prevented from choosing to wear it, that would be interpreted as 'shouting down' the other side.   

 

[Boges]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LV7eVvph69Y

There it is on Youtube. 

He cites names an instances where the Left hasn't been helpful in the war of ideas against fundamentalist Islam. 

You don't have to be Kellie Leetch to oppose bringing people into this country that think Cartoonists who draw Mohamed should be killed.  

[dialamah]

1 hour ago, Boges said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LV7eVvph69Y

There it is on Youtube. 

He cites names an instances where the Left hasn't been helpful in the war of ideas against fundamentalist Islam. 

You don't have to be Kellie Leetch to oppose bringing people into this country that think Cartoonists who draw Mohamed should be killed.  

 

Thanks for the better link, I watched it twice.  And, at the risk of being too honest, I have to say I saw some of myself in there, but also lots that isn't me.   That is what I hate about terms such as "the Left"; you are assumed to have the exact same thoughts/feelings as someone else who might agree with you on a few things.   We are all individuals and while left and right do have very broad meanings, I don't think it's right to assume or ascribe identical behaviors based on those labels.    That's something I'm reminded of when I watch Maher.

I agree with Harris's statement that it's some of the ideas in Islam that we have to fight - covering women, anti-gay, killing cartoonists, ect, - and that we need *moderate* Muslims to do this.   It's a good point that banning all Muslims means that you aren't going to be getting the moderate/progressive Muslims in America, and it will slow the reforming of Islam around the world and where it's especially needed such as Saudi Arabia.   

There was also the example of the extremist who was jailed; he (or she, wasn't sure) spent years in an Egyptian prison and yet is now one of those who speaks out against extremism.  I think this is the primary value of working to accept Muslims into a progressive society, even if they are more conservative.  Through experience and example, and the opportunity to change - to throw off the burka, so to speak - and to adopt more progressive values and spread them throughout the rest of the Muslim world.  

Sam Harris, in the video, says that in order to address terrorism, we have to reform Islam and I have to say I disagree with this.  I think Islam is a mask that terrorism wears and that if it weren't Islam, they'd find something else to justify their actions.  

 

[Boges]

Sure the left is a broad group, but so is the right. And I don't see anyone parsing who is and isn't "Alt-Right" and what "Alt-Right" really means. It's just used to discredit someone. 

Maher is a leftist, but he's not afraid to call it like he sees it. And too often people "on the left" don't want to criticize Islam because its members are overwhelmingly from a visible minority group. 

Christianity needed reformation, multiple times. Why is it wrong to say Islam needs reformation? Even the church, here in Canada, that JT visited has views that many Canadians would find very unCanadian. 

Edited February 8, 2017 by Boges

[DogOnPorch]

5 minutes ago, Boges said:

Christianity needed reformation, multiple times. Why is it wrong to say Islam needs reformation? 

 

The Quran claims to be the unalterable word of Allah. It warns in several places specifically against ANY reformation (as a sin).

33:62 for example...

http://legacy.quran.com/33

You can't change perfect being the theory.

 

[dialamah]

Just now, Boges said:

Maher is a leftist,

Really?   I'm sure I heard him call himself a conservative during an episode and I was surprised by that.   Googling it has resulted in either Libertarian or "Don't label me".   I'm certainly on board with "Don't label me".

 

1 minute ago, Boges said:

I don't see anyone parsing who and who aren't "Alt-Right" and what "Alt-Right" really means

I've been doing my best to avoid that lately.   I've made it a policy to only refer to 'the right' as a single brain when 'the left" has been tossed out first.   

14 minutes ago, Boges said:

Christianity needed reformation, multiple times.

Yup, and still does - or, my preference - elimination because a world without religion would be better imo.  

14 minutes ago, Boges said:

Why is it wrong to say Islam needs reformation?

If saying Islam needs reformation comes along with 'don't let them in the country' and 'Muslims are ignorant, backward, savages and cannot be reformed' then I think that's wrong.  Using example, education and inclusion to motivate and support change within Islam is not wrong, in my opinion.   And again, elimination of Islam would be my preference because I just think the world would be a better place without religion.  

And I mean 'elimination' in the most benign way.  

 

[Boges]

5 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Really?   I'm sure I heard him call himself a conservative during an episode and I was surprised by that.   Googling it has resulted in either Libertarian or "Don't label me".   I'm certainly on board with "Don't label me".

Do you see what he's saying about Trump? About the Republicans? He donated to Obama's campaign in 2012. The idea that people aren't sure if he's Liberal or not because he doesn't toe the line on Islam is a problem. 

Quote

Yup, and still does - or, my preference - elimination because a world without religion would be better imo.  

Then be more critical of Islam. I just saw a thread bumped today from late December where you and WCR are super critical of Scientology and Jehovah's Witness. Try using that critical thinking on Islam. 

Quote

If saying Islam needs reformation comes along with 'don't let them in the country' and 'Muslims are ignorant, backward, savages and cannot be reformed' then I think that's wrong.  Using example, education and inclusion to motivate and support change within Islam is not wrong, in my opinion.   And again, elimination of Islam would be my preference because I just think the world would be a better place without religion.  

And I mean 'elimination' in the most benign way.  

There are thing about Islam that are very unCanadian. Why is it that any time people call a spade a spade it's racist? FGM is barbaric, why is it appalling to point that out? Why is treating women differently at a place of worship not thought of as unacceptable to the leader of our country? 

Edited February 8, 2017 by Boges

[DogOnPorch]

5 minutes ago, dialamah said:

I just think the world would be a better place without religion.  

And I mean 'elimination' in the most benign way.  

 

 

I'd prefer a world without cancer, war and poverty...and cruelty to animals.

How do you propose eliminating Islam benignly, again?

[dialamah]

47 minutes ago, Boges said:

Do you see what he's saying about Trump? About the Republicans? He donated to Obama's campaign in 2012. The idea that people aren't sure if he's Liberal or not because he doesn't toe the line on Islam is a problem. 

 

 

 

My surprise when he called himself a Conservative was well before any extensive talk on Islam, so that's not my reason.   And not voting for/agreeing with Trump does not = Liberal.   Still, I may be wrong or may have misunderstood the context of his remark; it was a couple of years ago at least.

 

47 minutes ago, Boges said:

 

 

 

47 minutes ago, Boges said:

Then be more critical of Islam. I just saw a thread bumped today from late December where you and WCR are super critical of Scientology and Jehovah's Witness. Try using that critical thinking on Islam. 

 

 

 

Have you seen my comments on the "Veil" thread started by Goddess?   That is a thread discussing a practice common in Islam, and you will note I'm pretty critical of it.   

You see me "defend" Islam not because I approve of things such as subjugation of women or jailing/executing of gays, but because some people want to use this to denigrate every single Muslim, to deny them entry to this country and to spread hatred and fear regardless of the *individuals* who do not believe in any of that, who are working for change, and for innocent and peace-loving people who may be hurt or killed by such rhetoric.  When someone says "There has never been anything good come out of Islam", that's wrong.  It's as wrong as saying "There has never been anything good come out of Christianity".   When someone says Muslim women are too "retarded" to learn about birth control, that's wrong.   When someone says Muslims cannot accept our Western values, despite overwhelming evidence that they can and do, that's wrong.   Those are just some of the comments that have been made about Muslims on this board, and I'm sorry but I will continue to object to these kinds of comments.

As for discussing some of the common practices of Islam, it's true I do like to point out where the Quran (and presumably their prophet), does not support those practices.   That is criticizing the teachings of Islam, is it not?   If I were on a Muslim board, I would use those Quranic verses to 'prove' to them how wrong their practices are according to the book they profess to follow.   If there were Muslims on this board trying to push their version of 'holy living' onto the rest of us, I would certainly argue against them as strenuously as I argue against some of the more anti-Islamic among us.  

Perhaps it's not that my critical thinking is suspended when it comes to Islam, but that it's not suspended when it comes to recognizing Islamophobic rhetoric and attitude.

47 minutes ago, Boges said:

Why is it that any time people call a spade a spade it's racist? FGM is barbaric, why is it appalling to point that out? Why is treating women differently at a place of worship not thought of as unacceptable to the leader of our country? 

 

 

Why is that when I agree that FGM is barbaric, nobody notices?   Why is that when I point out that FGM is practiced by the majority of people in that region, regardless of religion, people still insist it's an "Islamic" thing?   Why is the only example provided of Sharia law the most barbaric one, when there are so many much less extreme forms of Sharia law practiced around the world?  Why is there constant insistence that Muslims are out to impose Sharia law on all of us, when there are numerous examples around the world where they could do so, and they don't?   Why is all of this either ignored, or why am I insulted and denigrated when I point them out?

And why is that even though I have over and over expressed my condemnation of many of these patriarchal practices common in Islam,  I am constantly accused of defending Islam "to the death" or some such BS, or accused of not caring about Canadians and Canadian values, of wanting gays to be thrown from rooftops.  

If people want a *discussion* of Islam and it's problems, then why won't they include in that discussion the more moderate forms of Islam, even as an example of how reformation can be achieved?    You posted the video from Maher; what makes that video interesting and informative is that it doesn't only present the worst, most scary thing about Islam and insist that's the only Islam that's legitimate.   They don't try to use fear of Sharia law as a way of browbeating people to their point of view; they don't deny moderate Islam exists or can be a force for change within Islam, or that Muslims (and Islam) can't be reformed.   

Edited February 8, 2017 by dialamah

[Boges]

I'm not singling out your views specifically. Don't take it personally. 

I've never made blanket assumptions about Islam. I'm just honest about criticising elements of it. 

Edited February 8, 2017 by Boges

[Argus]

1 hour ago, dialamah said:

Sam Harris, in the video, says that in order to address terrorism, we have to reform Islam and I have to say I disagree with this.  I think Islam is a mask that terrorism wears and that if it weren't Islam, they'd find something else to justify their actions. 

When they're bombing markets with civilians in them just because those people belong to a different branch of Islam, or bombing a church because they're 'infidels' what do you think would inspire them if there were no Islam?

[Argus]

7 minutes ago, dialamah said:

And why is that even though I have over and over expressed my condemnation of many of these patriarchal practices common in Islam,  I am constantly accused of defending Islam "to the death" or some such BS, or accused of not caring about Canadians and Canadian values, of wanting gays to be thrown from rooftops. 

Because you do no such thing. Whenever anyone condemns the brutal practices of Islamic countries or groups your response is to search out something bad that happens in the West and hold that up as a shield to protect Islam.

You will reluctantly admit that women are treated badly in Muslim countries, true, but then you'll immediately start talking about how badly women are treated in Canada and the West. That's your modus operandi here.

[Boges]

42 minutes ago, dialamah said:

If people want a *discussion* of Islam and it's problems, then why won't they include in that discussion the more moderate forms of Islam, even as an example of how reformation can be achieved?    You posted the video from Maher; what makes that video interesting and informative is that it doesn't only present the worst, most scary thing about Islam and insist that's the only Islam that's legitimate.   They don't try to use fear of Sharia law as a way of browbeating people to their point of view; they don't deny moderate Islam exists or can be a force for change within Islam, or that Muslims (and Islam) can't be reformed.   

The claim, and ultimately the thesis of this thread is that moderate Muslims are often shouted down by more fundamentalist Muslims and people "on the left" that don't want to appear racist. We should always embrace Moderate Muslims and defend them. 

Edited February 8, 2017 by Boges

[DogOnPorch]

Which begs the question: what is moderate Islam?

 

[Guest]

7 hours ago, ?Impact said:

Many western teenagers decide to dress all in black, even during the summer. Which is hotter, tight fitting or loose fitting clothing? I don't think either is good, just pointing out that we don't frown on one.

They decide to.  If they decided not to, that would be okay too.  Not so the blast furnace girls.

Edited February 8, 2017 by bcsapper
Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction - Blaise Pascal

[dialamah]

2 hours ago, Boges said:

I'm not singling out your views specifically. Don't take it personally. 

I've never made blanket assumptions about Islam. I'm just honest about criticising elements of it. 

 

I'll go with that.  

[Argus]

19 hours ago, DogOnPorch said:

Which begs the question: what is moderate Islam?

The problem with that question is it depends on who you ask. It seems to me that to the Left - and the media - if you say a Muslim says he doesn't believe in terrorism and violence against others then he's a moderate. They don't care if you are a dedicated believer in Islam, including Sharia law, which means you believe in the codified inferiority of women, and that gays need to be in jail or dead. And they won't ask what you think about Jews either.

On the other hand, if you're a white bread Canadian who goes to church every Sunday, and expresses some discontent with gay marriage, you're a far-right extremist.

[DogOnPorch]

18 minutes ago, Argus said:

The problem with that question is it depends on who you ask. It seems to me that to the Left - and the media - if you say a Muslim says he doesn't believe in terrorism and violence against others then he's a moderate. They don't care if you are a dedicated believer in Islam, including Sharia law, which means you believe in the codified inferiority of women, and that gays need to be in jail or dead. And they won't ask what you think about Jews either.

On the other hand, if you're a white bread Canadian who goes to church every Sunday, and expresses some discontent with gay marriage, you're a far-right extremist.

 

I'm waiting for the benign way to eliminate Islam. A little sit-down with the top Imams should convince the faithful that the Infidels are correct and Islam wrong.

 

[Bonam]

1 hour ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

I'm waiting for the benign way to eliminate Islam. A little sit-down with the top Imams should convince the faithful that the Infidels are correct and Islam wrong.

 

Well the long term way is the same as with Christianity. Over many generations living in stable prosperous countries where the benefits of science and reason and the in-applicability of ancient dogma to modern life are demonstrated every moment of every day, people slowly let go of their superstitions. But that's a centuries-long process, there is of course no "benign way" to "eliminate" any religion on a shorter time scale than centuries.