Cold war redux

[drummindiver]

President Obama sure is making statements before his departure. I guess it'll give John Le Carre more material.

There doesn't seem to be s lot of concrete evidence implicating the  Russians. 

Is Obama right with this expulsion? 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/12/29/obama-expels-35-russian-diplomats-election-hacking-row/

Edited December 30, 2016 by drummindiver

[Smallc]

Yes, and, in retrospect, Mitt Romney was right (and I was wrong) in 2012.

[Hal 9000]

It's interesting that both Obama and Kerry are sabotaging their own country with just 3 weeks left in power.  

[-1=e^ipi]

1 hour ago, Smallc said:

Yes, and, in retrospect, Mitt Romney was right (and I was wrong) in 2012.

No, Mitt Romney and you are still wrong. The #1 enemy of the USA is not China, Russia, North Korea, Iran, nor ISIS. It is Saudi Arabia. The sooner the west wakes up and works with the Russians for mutual benefit, the better.

[drummindiver]

13 minutes ago, -1=e^ipi said:

No, Mitt Romney and you are still wrong. The #1 enemy of the USA is not China, Russia, North Korea, Iran, nor ISIS. It is Saudi Arabia. The sooner the west wakes up and works with the Russians for mutual benefit, the better.

They are the moral compass of Islam, and have the money to support loads of terrorism,   but do not have military capabilities if they over step too far.

[-1=e^ipi]

12 minutes ago, drummindiver said:

They are the moral compass of Islam, and have the money to support loads of terrorism,   but do not have military capabilities if they over step too far.

Saudi Arabia is the 4th largest military spender in the worth, plus they have all their Gulf State Allies and all their terrorist connections. They are arguably the 4th most powerful nation on Earth. Also, the fascist Erdogan is somewhat friendly with Wahabbist beliefs, and Turkey has the 2nd largest army in NATO. Pakistan is also friendly to Wahabbist beliefs and they have nuclear weapons. Now factor in Germany, where Merkel is extremely friendly with Erdogan, imprisons comedians that make fun of Erdogan if Turkey requests it, is hostile to freedom of speech and now imprisons people that make the wrong facebook comment, and currently has had a large influx of migrants, many of which share Wahabbist beliefs, and has very interesting demographic trends. Germany is currently the ally of the USA and Canada, but that could change in 20 years. Then you also have Indonesia, which has a very conservative religious Sunni government that bans everything they disagree with, which is currently the 4th most populous country on Earth.

 

I think it would be naive to underestimate a Saudi-Turkey-Pakistan-Indonesian alliance, especially if some of our traditional European allies become neutral. Canada and USA need to seek alliances with Russia, Latin American countries, Philippines, Taiwan, maybe India if we don't want the geopolitical situation to get out of hand.

[DogOnPorch]

Obama is doubling-down. If he expels the diplomats, there MUST be truth to his claims of Russians preventing Hillary from being crowned Queen.

 

This is his hope...fling sh*t...hope it sticks.

 

Edited December 30, 2016 by DogOnPorch

[DogOnPorch]

4 minutes ago, -1=e^ipi said:

Saudi Arabia is the 4th largest military spender in the worth, plus they have all their Gulf State Allies and all their terrorist connections. They are arguably the 4th most powerful nation on Earth. Also, the fascist Erdogan is somewhat friendly with Wahabbist beliefs, and Turkey has the 2nd largest army in NATO. Pakistan is also friendly to Wahabbist beliefs and they have nuclear weapons. Now factor in Germany, where Merkel is extremely friendly with Erdogan, imprisons comedians that make fun of Erdogan if Turkey requests it, is hostile to freedom of speech and now imprisons people that make the wrong facebook comment, and currently has had a large influx of migrants, many of which share Wahabbist beliefs, and has very interesting demographic trends. Germany is currently the ally of the USA and Canada, but that could change in 20 years. Then you also have Indonesia, which has a very conservative religious Sunni government that bans everything they disagree with, which is currently the 4th most populous country on Earth.

 

I think it would be naive to underestimate a Saudi-Turkey-Pakistan-Indonesian alliance, especially if some of our traditional European allies become neutral. Canada and USA need to seek alliances with Russia, Latin American countries, Philippines, Taiwan, maybe India if we don't want the geopolitical situation to get out of hand.

 

SA wouldn't know WTF hit them.

[Smallc]

9 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

Obama is doubling-down. If he expels the diplomats, there MUST be truth to his claims of Russians preventing Hillary from being crowned Queen.

 

This is his hope...fling sh*t...hope it sticks.

Of course there is truth to his claim.  We know that because we now have the declassified details.  Don't let the truth stop you though.

[DogOnPorch]

5 minutes ago, Smallc said:

Of course there is truth to his claim.  We know that because we now have the declassified details.  Don't let the truth stop you though.

We have only what we are told.

What were you told by Mr Obama's nice people?

[-1=e^ipi]

Okay, it's probably really unfair for me to lump Indonesia in with Saudi Arabia, Turkey or Pakistan, but they have been moving towards mass internet censorship in recent years, which is concerning.

[drummindiver]

10 hours ago, -1=e^ipi said:

Saudi Arabia is the 4th largest military spender in the worth, plus they have all their Gulf State Allies and all their terrorist connections. They are arguably the 4th most powerful nation on Earth. Also, the fascist Erdogan is somewhat friendly with Wahabbist beliefs, and Turkey has the 2nd largest army in NATO.

Agreed, they are powerful. Third in arms spending. US is still number one with a bullet with bases in both countries. Push comes to shove they won't last long.

[drummindiver]

Russia has not risen  to Obama's bait by expelling diplomats.  Clearly Obama is trying to make things difficult for the Trump transition.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/12/30/europe/russia-us-diplomats-expulsion/index.html

[dialamah]

2 minutes ago, drummindiver said:

Russia has not risen  to Obama's bait by expelling diplomats.  Clearly Obama is trying to make things difficult for the Trump transition.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/12/30/europe/russia-us-diplomats-expulsion/index.html

The way I see it is that Obama is protecting American sovereignty in a way that Trump clearly does not plan to do, and Russia clearly knows.

Why any American citizen would accept foreign incursion into their election process lying down (or is that bending over?) is a mystery to me.   

[Smallc]

13 minutes ago, drummindiver said:

Russia has not risen  to Obama's bait by expelling diplomats.  Clearly Obama is trying to make things difficult for the Trump transition.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/12/30/europe/russia-us-diplomats-expulsion/index.html

I'm so glad that we have Putin to be the bigger person.

[drummindiver]

25 minutes ago, dialamah said:

The way I see it is that Obama is protecting American sovereignty in a way that Trump clearly does not plan to do, and Russia clearly knows.

Why any American citizen would accept foreign incursion into their election process lying down (or is that bending over?) is a mystery to me.   

Have you seen the evidence proving their culpability?

18 minutes ago, Smallc said:

I'm so glad that we have Putin to be the bigger person.

Do you imagine Obama would have done the same had he been retaining office?

[Smallc]

8 minutes ago, drummindiver said:

Have you seen the evidence proving their culpability?

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/dec/29/fbi-dhs-russian-hacking-report

9 minutes ago, drummindiver said:

Do you imagine Obama would have done the same had he been retaining office?

Considering he's already done it many times (George W Bush as well) I have no reason to doubt he would have.

[dialamah]

9 minutes ago, drummindiver said:

Have you seen the evidence proving their culpability?

I know; the American security agencies are just Democrat-driven organizations who will put their country at risk to discredit the GOP.    Amiright?

[drummindiver]

14 minutes ago, Smallc said:

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/dec/29/fbi-dhs-russian-hacking-report

Considering he's already done it many times (George W Bush as well) I have no reason to doubt he would have.

'The report was criticized by security experts, who said it lacked depth and came too late'

Hardly conclusive.

I could find no evidence of Obama ordering Russian diplomats out before, let alone many times.

[drummindiver]

17 minutes ago, dialamah said:

I know; the American security agencies are just Democrat-driven organizations who will put their country at risk to discredit the GOP.    Amiright?

There were allegations. No proof. Even they said it was not conclusive, and did not point to the Russians trying to change the outcome. At the end of the day Hillary is still the one who was naughty amiright?

[eyeball]

15 hours ago, drummindiver said:

President Obama sure is making statements before his departure. I guess it'll give John Le Carre more material.

There doesn't seem to be s lot of concrete evidence implicating the  Russians. 

Evidence?  Why does that matter?

[Smallc]

16 minutes ago, drummindiver said:

'The report was criticized by security experts, who said it lacked depth and came too late'

Hardly conclusive.

'Security Experts' are employed by the FBI and CIA as well - they seem to disagree with the 'experts' that you're citing (without a citation)

 

17 minutes ago, drummindiver said:

I could find no evidence of Obama ordering Russian diplomats out before, let alone many times.

You're kidding right?  There have been multiple rounds of sanctions from multiple western countries, including Canada under Harper.  This attack on American democracy is the most egregious example, and many 'security experts' (actual ones) feel that the response by the Obama administration was far too tame, and should have included cyber military attacks.

[dialamah]

8 minutes ago, drummindiver said:

There were allegations. No proof. Even they said it was not conclusive, and did not point to the Russians trying to change the outcome. At the end of the day Hillary is still the one who was naughty amiright?

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/technology/2016/dec/29/fbi-dhs-russian-hacking-report

FBI and DHS release report detailing Russian hacking.  Private sector cyber security firms says their reports are better and clearly demonstrate Russian hacking.   One security expert wonders why the American response is so tepid.

So both government and private sector confirm Russian hacking.   But you say it didn't happen and even if it did, it didn't affect the election outcome as far as we know.  Right?  

So I can sneak into your house, do whatever, leave my fingerprints, but its ok because you don't know what I did.   Amiright?

[drummindiver]

9 minutes ago, Smallc said:

'Security Experts' are employed by the FBI and CIA as well - they seem to disagree with the 'experts' that you're citing (without a citation)

 

You're kidding right?  There have been multiple rounds of sanctions from multiple western countries, including Canada under Harper.  This attack on American democracy is the most egregious example, and many 'security experts' (actual ones) feel that the response by the Obama administration was far too tame, and should have included cyber military attacks.

I quoted that from the link you posted.

Again, googled using multiple terms and could not find any instance that Obama had expelled any Russian diplomats.

[Smallc]

3 minutes ago, drummindiver said:

Again, googled using multiple terms and could not find any instance that Obama had expelled any Russian diplomats.

I see, so no other sanctions actually count?  How many times has Russia been caught interfering in the US election?

Didn't look too hard, did you?

http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/08/politics/russia-attack-us-diplomat/index.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+rss%2Fedition_us+(RSS%3A+CNNi+-+U.S.)&iid=ob_lockedrail_bottomlist

Edited December 30, 2016 by Smallc