Hollywood Actor Tweets The President Should Die

[dialamah]

1 minute ago, bcsapper said:

If they say they are okay with it, they are okay with it.  What about this is so hard to understand?

Where did these women *say* they were ok with it?   Not making a fuss after the fact does mean they were ok with it, nor does it mean it wasn't boorish, piggish and illegal behavior by the man.   

[Guest]

1 minute ago, dialamah said:

Where did these women *say* they were ok with it?   Not making a fuss after the fact does mean they were ok with it, nor does it mean it wasn't boorish, piggish and illegal behavior by the man.   

If they don't say they are okay with it, they are not.  I said if. 

[kimmy]

1 minute ago, bcsapper said:

If they don't say they are okay with it, they are not.  I said if. 

And again what part of Trump's comment makes it sound like he bothers to find out if they're "ok" with it?  He talks about popping some tic-tacs in case he starts kissing Ariana Zucker. He talks about how he just starts kissing, how he doesn't even wait. He says he can do anything he likes to women, because he's a star. But somehow you've got this notion that he asks before he grabs their pussies. Why is that?

 -k

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, kimmy said:

And again what part of Trump's comment makes it sound like he bothers to find out if they're "ok" with it?  He talks about popping some tic-tacs in case he starts kissing Ariana Zucker. He talks about how he just starts kissing, how he doesn't even wait. He says he can do anything he likes to women, because he's a star. But somehow you've got this notion that he asks before he grabs their pussies. Why is that?

 -k

I don't.  Where did you get that from?

This goes back to the comment he made, and the response Dialamah made.  She called him a rapist based on his comment.  I said he can't be a rapist if they are okay with it. 

If they are okay with it, he isn't a rapist.  If they are not, then the courts can decide if he is a rapist or not.

 

Edit> But neither you nor Dialamah get to decide for the woman in question.

 

Edited December 31, 2016 by bcsapper

[kimmy]

1 minute ago, bcsapper said:

I don't.  Where did you get that from?

This goes back to the comment he made, and the response Dialamah made.  She called him a rapist based on his comment.  I said he can't be a rapist if they are okay with it. 

If they are okay with it, he isn't a rapist.  If they are not, then the courts can decide if he is a rapist or not.

 

Edit> But neither you nor Dialamah get to decide for the woman in question.

 

As Omni said earlier: if you go to court with that concept of consent, you're going to lose.  "She didn't fight back so I thought I had consent..." isn't going to work.

 -k

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, kimmy said:

As Omni said earlier: if you go to court with that concept of consent, you're going to lose.  "She didn't fight back so I thought I had consent..." isn't going to work.

 -k

But nobody said anything about not fighting back.  Why can't you understand the concept of "okay with it"?  It's not that difficult.  It's not difficult to see why they might have been okay with it either. 

 

 

Edited December 31, 2016 by bcsapper

[kimmy]

6 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

But nobody said anything about not fighting back.  Why can't you understand the concept of "okay with it"?  It's not that difficult.  It's not difficult to see why they might have been okay with it either.

 As people keep trying to explain to you: the problem is that Trump (by his description) doesn't make any effort to find out whether women are "OK" with it before he starts molesting them. He clearly thinks that since he is "a star" women are always OK with whatever he does.

If you go up to people and start sexually molesting them without bothering to find out whether they're "OK" with it, you're a sex predator. Period. Even if you don't end up in jail.

 -k

[dialamah]

16 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

 

The problem here is, you're both irritated by the fact that a woman might allow a man to do something because she might get something out of it.  It debases her, and that offends you. 

You can't take her choice away just because it offends you.

You fail to understand the basic fact that the victim's behavior after the fact  is not what defines an assault, whether sexual or not.

In any case, there were upwards of 20 women who came forward and said Trump did exactly what he said he did:  grabbed them without their consent.   Just because they didn't yell to the police about it doesn't mean it was ok with them.   Nor does it mean that Trump somehow magically didn't assault them.   

For the women who found such behavior exciting, good on them - no doubt some women like that approach.   And it still doesn't make Trump's behavior any less disgusting.

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest]

Just now, kimmy said:

 As people keep trying to explain to you: the problem is that Trump (by his description) doesn't make any effort to find out whether women are "OK" with them before he starts molesting them. He clearly thinks that since he is "a star" women are always OK with whatever he does.

If you go up to people and start sexually molesting them without bothering to find out whether they're "OK" with it, you're a sex predator. Period. Even if you don't end up in jail.

 -k

People can explain it until they are blue in the face, it doesn't change the fact that if DT touched women who were okay with it, he's not a rapist.  Not in their cases anyway.  I can't speak to the instances where there were women who were not okay with it.  Lots of those women came forward during the election.  I haven't been keeping up on the court cases.

Like I said, it offends you that women might let him do things in order to get ahead in his world.  Well, tough.  It does happen.  It's their choice.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, dialamah said:

You fail to understand the basic fact that the victim's behavior after the fact  is not what defines an assault, whether sexual or not.

In any case, there were upwards of 20 women who came forward and said Trump did exactly what he said he did:  grabbed them without their consent.   Just because they didn't yell to the police about it doesn't mean it was ok with them.   Nor does it mean that Trump somehow magically didn't assault them.   

For the women who found such behavior exciting, good on them - no doubt some women like that approach.   And it still doesn't make Trump's behavior any less disgusting.

 

Never argued about disgusting.  I said that women who were okay with it were not being raped. 

 

Edit> Like I said to Kimmy, it offends you that women might let him do things in order to get ahead in his world.  Well, tough.  It does happen.  It's their choice.

Edited December 31, 2016 by bcsapper

[kimmy]

3 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

People can explain it until they are blue in the face, it doesn't change the fact that if DT touched women who were okay with it, he's not a rapist.  Not in their cases anyway.  I can't speak to the instances where there were women who were not okay with it.  Lots of those women came forward during the election.  I haven't been keeping up on the court cases.

Like I said, it offends you that women might let him do things in order to get ahead in his world.  Well, tough.  It does happen.  It's their choice.

What offends me is that you're defending the idea that grabbing someone's genitals without consent isn't a sexual assault.

 -k

[Guest]

1 minute ago, kimmy said:

What offends me is that you're defending the idea that grabbing someone's genitals without consent isn't a sexual assault.

 -k

No I'm not.  I'm saying that grabbing someone's genitals if they are okay with isn't a sexual assault.

Your problem is, you want to choose whether or not they were okay with it.

Edited December 31, 2016 by bcsapper

[kimmy]

1 minute ago, bcsapper said:

No I'm not.  I'm saying that grabbing someone's genitals if they are okay with isn't a sexual assault.

Your problem is, you want to choose whether or not they were okay with it.

I'm pointing out that he didn't say anything about asking permission. He said he didn't need to ask whether women were "ok" with it before he started molesting them. On what planet is that ok?

The whole point of his rant was to tell Billy Bush how he's such a big "star" that he doesn't have to ask permission.

 -k

[Guest]

Just now, kimmy said:

I'm pointing out that he didn't say anything about asking permission. He said he didn't need to ask whether women were "ok" with it before he started molesting them. On what planet is that ok?

The whole point of his rant was to tell Billy Bush how he's such a big "star" that he doesn't have to ask permission.

 -k

It doesn't matter.  This started with me refuting Dialamah's contention that his quote made him a rapist.  It didn't.  His motives are no more relevant that the motives of the women who were "okay with it". 

 

 

[dialamah]

Just now, bcsapper said:

It doesn't matter.  This started with me refuting Dialamah's contention that his quote made him a rapist.  It didn't.  His motives are no more relevant that the motives of the women who were "okay with it". 

 

 

I did modify my original statement to 'sexual assault', so why are you still on about it?

[kimmy]

1 minute ago, bcsapper said:

It doesn't matter.  This started with me refuting Dialamah's contention that his quote made him a rapist.  It didn't.  His motives are no more relevant that the motives of the women who were "okay with it".

I don't know about "rapist", but someone who goes around grabbing people's genitals without asking permission is clearly a sexual predator by any reasonable definition.

 -k

[Guest]

1 minute ago, dialamah said:

I did modify my original statement to 'sexual assault', so why are you still on about it?

I'm not, you are.

[Guest]

Just now, kimmy said:

I don't know about "rapist", but someone who goes around grabbing people's genitals without asking permission is clearly a sexual predator by any reasonable definition.

 -k

Oh, absolutely.  Unless they are okay with it.

[kimmy]

Just now, bcsapper said:

Oh, absolutely.  Unless they are okay with it.

He doesn't ask if they're ok before he starts grabbing. That was the whole point of what he was saying. "I'm such a big deal that I don't even have to ask, I just take."

 -k

[DogOnPorch]

1 minute ago, kimmy said:

He doesn't ask if they're ok before he starts grabbing. That was the whole point of what he was saying. "I'm such a big deal that I don't even have to ask, I just take."

 -k

 

No woman would ever allow that...oh wait...not all women are the same.

My experience: the guy claiming loudly to be gettin' some all the time, any-old-place...isn't.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, kimmy said:

He doesn't ask if they're ok before he starts grabbing. That was the whole point of what he was saying. "I'm such a big deal that I don't even have to ask, I just take."

 -k

Right, and to go back to the original quote, "And when you’re a star, they let you do it. You can do anything."

Let him, it's okay.  Don't let him, he better not.

Again, it's the notion that some women are willing to put up with him for a chance at getting ahead that is the problem here. 

Edited December 31, 2016 by bcsapper

[kimmy]

2 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

Right, and to go back to the original quote, "And when you’re a star, they let you do it. You can do anything."

And how does he know? Is he a telepath? Do women carry signs around saying "grab my pussy" when they come to Trump events? Do they sign a waiver before they walk in the door?

2 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

Let him, it's okay.  Don't let him, he better not.

Again, it's the notion that some women are willing to put up with him for a chance at getting ahead that is the problem here. 

You seem to be saying that because relatively few women have sought legal remedy for his behavior, he didn't do anything wrong in grabbing women without permission.

 -k

[kimmy]

Just now, kimmy said:

You seem to be saying that because relatively few women have sought legal remedy for his behavior, he didn't do anything wrong in grabbing women without permission.

@bcsapper Go read some of the statements from the women who worked with Jian Ghomeshi and see how they felt about their experience with the "I can do whatever I want to these women because I'm a star" mentality.

 -k

[Guest]

1 minute ago, kimmy said:

And how does he know? Is he a telepath? Do women carry signs around saying "grab my pussy" when they come to Trump events? Do they sign a waiver before they walk in the door?

You seem to be saying that because relatively few women have sought legal remedy for his behavior, he didn't do anything wrong in grabbing women without permission.

 -k

No. I'm saying that if women are okay with a person's advances, there is no sexual assault.

We were talking about his quote.  If he had said they weren't okay with it, but he did it anyway, we wouldn't be having this argument.

 

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, kimmy said:

@bcsapper Go read some of the statements from the women who worked with Jian Ghomeshi and see how they felt about their experience with the "I can do whatever I want to these women because I'm a star" mentality.

 -k

No,  you're taking this in a different direction, because I was just talking about one thing, and that was what he said.  Any woman who is not okay with it, does not apply as far as DT's quote goes. 

Edited December 31, 2016 by bcsapper