Immigration of religious fanatics

[Smallc]

Because all Germans weren't Nazis.  

[DogOnPorch]

1 minute ago, Smallc said:

Because all Germans weren't Nazis.  

...and?

Allow Nazi Germany to exist or what?

What are you saying?

[Smallc]

Just now, DogOnPorch said:

...and?

Allow Nazi Germany to exist or what?

I'm going to go with what, since I have no idea as to your point.

[DogOnPorch]

Just now, Smallc said:

I'm going to go with what, since I have no idea as to your point.

Your defense = since all Germans aren't Nazis.....then what?

Is it: Allow Nazi Germany to exist since not all Germans were/are Nazis?

 

[Smallc]

14 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

Your defense = since all Germans aren't Nazis.....then what?

Then you don't automatically paint all Germans as Nazis.  You don't cut off all immigration from the middle east.

[DogOnPorch]

1 minute ago, Smallc said:

Then you don't automatically paint all Germans as Nazis.  You don't cut off all immigration from the middle east.

We don't? What was WW2 about, then?

[Army Guy]

9 minutes ago, Smallc said:

Then you don't automatically paint all Germans as Nazis.  You don't cut off all immigration from the middle east.

So what do we call them, i mean those forced to work for the Nazi machine, out of shear survival, or fear of being sent to a camp......what do we call them....what do we call them when they where forced to take part in the death camps, what do we call them when they told on their neibours for some nazi crime....what do we call them when they worked in the factories producing german war materials....what do we call them when they turned thier backs on all the crimes that german nazi party committed.

Are you saying Canada is not free to chose what people come into Canada ? Have we always picked small groups from every nationality available in the world...every year...I can remember a time when nobody wanted Jews and were very vocal about it....i get it things have changed, since then...i mean do you think it would even be questioned.....Hey why is Canada not bringing in any people from the middle east.....think it would come up in the UN.....

. 

[Rue]

Hang on guys. During WW2 we profiled in Canada all Germans, Italians, Japanese and I believe some other nationalities, precisely because we did not know how to differentiate possible spies or enemies from within these groups.

That could very well happen again if Muslim terrorism becomes more wide spread in Canada, the West, the world, or we get into a war with a Muslim or Muslim nations.

Let's not be naive and don't think that could not happen.

So I believe neither Small C or Porch are wrong. On the one hand SmallC is right... it's unfair to call all of the people in any one group undesireable. Lord knows McKenzie King sent Jews back to their death in Germany using that mentality and I think today's immigration and refugee  policies are  very much a response to that.

On the other hand Porch is right in that we also may be getting to a point where security concerns will get to the point that they make giving benefit of the doubt to an entire group impossible as it was in WW2.

I hope to hell that does not happen. The spectacle of sending people to internment camps, who the hell wants that but to think its not possible is naive.

  

[Smallc]

31 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

So what do we call them, i mean those forced to work for the Nazi machine, out of shear survival, or fear of being sent to a camp

I didn't realize all Muslims were being sent to camps.  Poor analogy.

[Army Guy]

53 minutes ago, Smallc said:

I didn't realize all Muslims were being sent to camps.  Poor analogy.

Your right Smallc, there are no camps, but lots of prisons, you know the type of prisons i'm talking about some of the more famous were located in Iraq thanks to Sadams kids, not to mention Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, alot of other stans.....infact most muslim countries have prisons know to do a little torture now and then, just to keep the trade going you know....or there is the just driving you out to the desert thing....so no camps per say, but institutions where the same result is given, death....by torture...

or perhaps you are saying Muslims do not live in fear....over what might happen to them if they speak out, maybe draw a cartoon of allah, burn the koran in the streets, or denounce the muslim religion all together, in public....perhaps your wife goes out without a male escort, or she tells someone you cheated on her.....

[Argus]

People with similar cultural values, wherever they come from, will better integrate into Canadian society than those who come from religion based cultures.

Critically, and however imperfectly, countries that practise civic-based citizenship are able to integrate and unite otherwise diverse peoples if the focus is kept on shared, defensible concepts. They run into trouble when they forget that or pretend that all ideas are created alike.

But this assumes a robust defence of desirable norms and a frank hostility to cultural or religious practices that, for instance, subjugate women.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/why-canadian-norms-and-values-matter/article33498514/

[DogOnPorch]

We are warned that countries like Japan with no immigration to speak of will die a slow death over the next century without the help of mass Islamic immigration.

Japan isn't taking the hook.

[Goddess]

10 minutes ago, Argus said:

People with similar cultural values, wherever they come from, will better integrate into Canadian society than those who come from religion based cultures.

Critically, and however imperfectly, countries that practise civic-based citizenship are able to integrate and unite otherwise diverse peoples if the focus is kept on shared, defensible concepts. They run into trouble when they forget that or pretend that all ideas are created alike.

But this assumes a robust defence of desirable norms and a frank hostility to cultural or religious practices that, for instance, subjugate women.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/why-canadian-norms-and-values-matter/article33498514/

That's a good article.  This part is interesting:

 

Quote

This is why Justin Trudeau, then the Liberal immigration critic, was wrong to shy away from revisions to Canada’s citizenship guide in 2011 that read: “Canada’s openness and generosity do not extend to barbaric cultural practices that tolerate spousal abuse, ‘honour killings,’ female genital mutilation, forced marriage or other gender-based violence.” Mr. Trudeau objected to the term “barbaric.” He argued that a government guide should make an “attempt at responsible neutrality” in language, a position he later backed away from.

WTF?  Why on earth would we want to present a "Neutral" view on those things?

[DogOnPorch]

3 minutes ago, Goddess said:

That's a good article.  This part is interesting:

 

WTF?  Why on earth would we want to present a "Neutral" view on those things?

 

He sympathizes with Islam heavily if he's not a Muslim himself...that's why.

[Goddess]

4 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

He sympathizes with Islam heavily if he's not a Muslim himself...that's why.

Disgusting.

If 100-140 million little boys worldwide were having their penises amputated, I bet he'd call that "barbaric".

[DogOnPorch]

16 minutes ago, Goddess said:

Disgusting.

If 100-140 million little boys worldwide were having their penises amputated, I bet he'd call that "barbaric".

 

Both him and Obama: remember:...The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam.

He meant us...

Edited January 5, 2017 by DogOnPorch

[Peter F]

3 hours ago, Goddess said:

Disgusting.

If 100-140 million little boys worldwide were having their penises amputated, I bet he'd call that "barbaric".

Yah, Disgusting. We should make no effort to get them outa there and when they want out we should close the door because they are Barbarians.

[drummindiver]

5 hours ago, DogOnPorch said:

We are warned that countries like Japan with no immigration to speak of will die a slow death over the next century without the help of mass Islamic immigration.

Japan isn't taking the hook.

Most countries are in that category includine China. Aftica is having a population explosion and will be the main immigrants of the future.

Obviously not all countries there are Muslim bUT many are.

Edited January 5, 2017 by drummindiver

[WestCoastRunner]

On 2017-01-05 at 1:16 PM, Peter F said:

Yah, Disgusting. We should make no effort to get them outa there and when they want out we should close the door because they are Barbarians.

But, but...  these little boys and girls would grow up to overthrow the Canadian laws as we know it. Doncha know?  

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, WestCoastRunner said:

But, but...  these little boys and girls would grow up to overthrow the Canadian laws as we know it. Doncha know?  

They might, they might not.  One just can't tell.

[WestCoastRunner]

Just now, bcsapper said:

They might, they might not.  One just can't tell.

Brilliant Watson! 

[Guest]

Just now, WestCoastRunner said:

Brilliant Watson! 

Elementary.

[dre]

On 1/5/2017 at 9:27 AM, DogOnPorch said:

We are warned that countries like Japan with no immigration to speak of will die a slow death over the next century without the help of mass Islamic immigration.

Japan isn't taking the hook.

Right and they are in a while lot of trouble. Nominal GDP has fallen alongside population stagnation, and they have been forced to spend 30 trillion yen in stimulus, and now are talking about a 9% sales tax to fund one of the largest public debts in the world.  About the only thing that can save them now is inflation.

Edited January 7, 2017 by dre

[dialamah]

An article by an ex-Muslim woman who hid her atheism while growing up in Lebanon, and moved to the United States as an adult, and how she experiences freedom.  The most heart-wrenching comment:  

Quote

 

I can have facial expressions. Facial expressions.

I can have facial expressions.

I can have facial expressions.

It has been so hard to train myself to voice my feelings and opinions. To turn my face on.

 

This woman was able to leave Lebanon, but without her family; she considers herself one of the lucky ones and maintains that there are many women who remain locked in an oppressive society despite their personal beliefs, who may long for freedom forever denied.

People like Leitch and those who support her only make it harder for these women to escape such oppression.   Perhaps this woman, on her own, would successfully 'pass' a values screening test, but what if she were under the authority of her family?   Even an 8-year-old girl can long for freedom, or a 16-year-old or an 18-year-old.    How would a 'values' screening test that relies on parents' attitudes save these children, or increase freedom in the world?  

Even this woman, so devoted to the concept of freedom that she left everything behind to find it - even she had trouble adjusting to the reality of life in the States.   It took her weeks to find the comfort to go out into the world not dressed as a Muslim woman, and after almost a year in the States, she is still adjusting.   
 

Quote

 

Some days, however, we’ll be very aware of our rights. The ridiculous pervasiveness of choice around us will paralyze and confuse us, and we will feel empty, incomplete.

I have had a panic attack choosing pizza toppings when my partner would not take ‘whatever you want’ as an answer for the umpteenth consecutive time.

I have become so used to choosing things according to a quick assessment of what other people want, prefer, or require, so that they will be happy and content and thus my life around them will be easier, so that they will not hurt me or destroy me–so used to choosing what will make others happy– I have become so used to that that I  am deeply depressed trying to make anything meaningful for myself.

 

 

Imagine how much harder this adjustment would be for a woman or girl who has not given up Islam, who believes in the concept of freedom, but must still reconcile her own religious beliefs and her family's religious beliefs with the freedom Canada (or the States) offers.   

I think allowing people from oppressive societies to come to Canada encourages and supports the concept of freedom within the individual, and through them, throughout society and the world.  I think providing example and opportunity to people is what ensures more freedom/humanity throughout the world, not less.  I think when we deny people our example and experience, we make the world a poorer and more dangerous place, not a safer place.

This is not to say that every immigrant from an oppressive region will adjust to and embrace the freedoms Canada offers.   Some people are simply too frightened by change and will cling even more closely to what they regard as 'familiar' and 'safe'.   But I don't think those people are a reason to deny others who will embrace our values, even if it takes some adjustment time.

 

[Argus]

1 hour ago, dialamah said:

An article by an ex-Muslim woman who hid her atheism while growing up in Lebanon, and moved to the United States as an adult, and how she experiences freedom.  The most heart-wrenching comment:  

This woman was able to leave Lebanon, but without her family; she considers herself one of the lucky ones and maintains that there are many women who remain locked in an oppressive society despite their personal beliefs, who may long for freedom forever denied.

People like Leitch and those who support her only make it harder for these women to escape such oppression.   Perhaps this woman, on her own, would successfully 'pass' a values screening test, but what if she were under the authority of her family?  

What if chickens were roosting in her hair? Nothing Leitch has proposed would have had any impact on this woman entering Canada. What she is proposing is to keep the kind of people who prevented her from having facial expressions from coming here and increasing in size and influence.