Immigration of religious fanatics

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, ?Impact said:

What about نیّة‎‎?

conservatives are indoctrinated in the local bar

So what should we do about Donald Trump and his five children?

Still afraid of a piece of clothing? You know, that necktie you wear has been symbolic of many things over the years: genteel birth, social rank, coming of age, blind following of tradition and, of course, male sexuality.

I think the real fear of the piece of clothing is the fear that the wearing of such might not be by choice.  To acknowledge that would be to acknowledge other things as well, and that is what people are afraid of. 

[Argus]

2 hours ago, bcsapper said:

I think the real fear of the piece of clothing is the fear that the wearing of such might not be by choice.  To acknowledge that would be to acknowledge other things as well, and that is what people are afraid of. 

There is no fear here. There is simply recognition of what it represents, which is dedication to the fundamentalist version of Islam which hates women, gays, Jews and infidels.

[Omni]

6 minutes ago, Argus said:

There is no fear here. There is simply recognition of what it represents, which is dedication to the fundamentalist version of Islam which hates women, gays, Jews and infidels.

Which is the only version you seem to be aware of. But that will not likely ever change. So put on your tin hat and get under your bed.

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, Argus said:

There is no fear here. There is simply recognition of what it represents, which is dedication to the fundamentalist version of Islam which hates women, gays, Jews and infidels.

For you and me, sure.  We're not the ones who are afraid.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Omni said:

Which is the only version you seem to be aware of. But that will not likely ever change. So put on your tin hat and get under your bed.

You've been in the middle east, as I have.  Do you really think they were wearing those black tents in the 40 degree heat because they wanted to?

 

[Omni]

10 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

You've been in the middle east, as I have.  Do you really think they were wearing those black tents in the 40 degree heat because they wanted to?

 

It depends on where in the ME you are referring to. Dubai isn't Kabul. Khartoum isn't Juba. And Saudi is not Canada. People who wear various icons of their particular religion do so for various reasons. Please lets at least try to raise our heads above this narrow minded view that that seems to permeate this thread. Or, just go ahead and sign onto you know who's narrow minded version of the world, who I suspect hasd never been off his ass far enough to get beyond the friggin grocery store!

 

Edited December 28, 2016 by Omni

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Omni said:

It depends on where in the ME you are referring to. Dubai isn't Kabul. Khartoum isn't Juba. And Saudi is not Canada. People who wear various icons of their particular religion do so for various reasons. Please lets at least try to raise our heads above this narrow minded view that that seems to permeate this thread. Or, just go ahead and sign onto you know who's narrow minded version of the world, who I suspect hasd never been off his ass far enought o get beyond the friggin grocery store!

 

Well, I was just in Oman, in the empty quarter.  I don't think any of them did, but I never asked them.  I was told it could get them killed. 

[Omni]

2 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

Well, I was just in Oman, in the empty quarter.  I don't think any of them did, but I never asked them.  I was told it could get them killed. 

My point is that all religions place, or have placed inappropriate limits on people. And Christians are as much murderers as anybody else due to those professors of fear. We have advanced somewhat, but we're not squeaky clean, although I agree we have advanced by simply being able to afford education so we could cast off the strange beliefs. Tarring all Muslim's with the same brush would be the same as tarring all Christians with the same brush. I used to drink beer in a hotel in Dubai with Muslim men and women. Believe it or not.

[Guest]

Just now, Omni said:

My point is that all religions place, or have placed inappropriate limits on people. And Christians are as much murderers as anybody else due to those professors of fear. We have advanced somewhat, but we're not squeaky clean, although I agree we have advanced by simply being able to afford education so we could cast off the strange beliefs. Tarring all Muslim's with the same brush would be the same as tarring all Christians with the same brush. I used to drink beer in a hotel in Dubai with Muslim men and women. Believe it or not.

Oh, I believe it.  It's one of the reasons I avoid tarring at all costs.  But I also strive not to avoid the truth about Islam, and Muslims, which, while only being truly awful when referring to some, is, nevertheless, truly awful when referring to those to whom it applies.

[Rue]

2 hours ago, Argus said:

And has that happened with the Haradim? Nope. So what makes you think it will happen with Muslims?

It has been out tradition that immigrant children are far more Canadian than their parents, and embrace most Canadian values. But that is from people who come from different cultures which are NOT actively supported by their own religious beliefs. Where religion is involved Canadianization slows dramatically. Why are so many young, Canadian born Muslim women embracing the Hajib and Burqa? To become more Canadian? I don't think so.

You raise an interesting point and I know there are not enough statistics on the subject you raise to say anything definitive about the actual percentage of young Muslims who get recruited into extremist Muslim cells or for that matter any Muslims who are  becoming radicalized in Canada.

I mean that is the issue.  If it is happening is it in sufficient numbers to warrant new counter-intelligence measures.

Is it sufficient for us to label all Muslims in Canada suspect just as we did Japanese in WW2? Is that an effective way to deal with it or will it in fact just alienate and therefore encourage more Muslim Canadians to radicalize themselves?

We also have to differentiate between potential radical Muslims coming in and who are NOT Canadian citizens from Muslim Canadians born in Canada who may b radicalized. They offer separate legal challenges and no you can't round up all Muslim Canadians like we did the Japanese. Our Charter of Rights if nothing else would not allow that and I for one would hate to see our nation end up like that for obvious reasons. It means we've failed as a democracy when we have to do such things. In the case of WW2 liberties and freedoms were suspended to enable the war effort to be completed but do we wish that? Is that what we want to do?

In discussions about Muslim Canadians, Christian Leuprecht and  Conrad Winn provided an article and survey in,  "What Do Muslim Canadians Want? The Clash of Interpretations and Opinion Research", The Macdonald-Laurier Institute, November 2011, which can be found at  http://www.macdonaldlaurier.ca/files/pdf/What-Do-Muslim-Canadians-Want-November-1-2011.pdf.

This is the survey often quoted to say a large number of Muslims living in Canada would not disown Al - Quaeda. In the survey only 65% of the Muslims asked said they would absolutely repudiate Al Quaeda.

Is that enough to justify suspecting the entire Muslim community because its the most often quoted study to justify that lack of trust?

Well to start with you can exclude the Ismaili Muslims of Canada. They are progressive, modern and the Agha Khan Foundation does great things.

It would be ridiculous to call any of them radicals let alone potential terrorists and they are rejected by mainstream Islam as too modern and not religious enough.

Then you can exclude the Ahmaddiya Muslims of Canada because they have been persecuted by mainstream Islam since they originally existed, are mostly Pakistani, came hear to escape being slaughtered and they are the most peaceful people in the world.

Now you want to figure out who in the Sunni and Shia communities are dangerous good luck.

Sunnis make up anywhere from 84 to 90% of all Muslims.

Then the rest fall under the Shia sect.

You have 4 main branches, Sunni, Shia, Wahhabi-Sunni and Sufi-Sunni.

Ismaili's fall under the Shia's and the Amadyyah are unique to themselves.

But there are in fact roughly 150 smaller sects of Islam

Now most Iranians who like to call themselves Persians who came to Canada were Westernized and came to get away

from fundamentalist Shiites.

 

The fundamental Shias split with the Sunnis over a right over who the fifth Muslim world leader (caliph) should have been.

 

The Shi'ites wanted Muhammad's son-in-law Ali to succeed him, so  they believe all caliphs should belong to Muhammad's bloodline.

 

They don't recognize any one outside Muhammad's blood line as a leader and they say the Koran is not an authentic Muslim holy book

and have their own.

 

The Wahhabis, a radical Sunni sect in Saudi Arabia are extremists founded in the 1700's originallyu led by Abd al Wahhab and thus their name and they are as radical as it gets. Sufis are another sect of Sunnis closer tot he Wahhabis then every day Sunnis and they can be extremely violent and terrorist or mystical and a mystery known only to themselves.

 

Technically the peaceful  Bahais much persecuted in Iran by the Shiites  could be called a mystical branch of Islam mixed with Indian Vedantic philosophy and was started by Mirza Hussayn Ali in 1847. These people have their religious headquarters in Haifa, Israel and are absolutely hated by Sunni and Shiite Muslims of the Middle East so you can forget stereotyping them as evil potential terrorists.

 

Your radicals are most likely to be Sunnis from Pakistan, Philippines, Indonesia, Malaysia, China, Chechnya, other former Soviet states, Nigeria, Algeria, Chad, Niger, Malawi, Sudan, Egypt, Lebanon, Iraq, Bahrain, Yemen or other countries or Wahhabi from Saudi Arabia or Shiites from Iraq, Iran or Lebanon.

 

You can pretty much rule out Muslims from Albania or the former Yugoslavia who came to Canada as radicals as they have a very different kind of Islamic practice and came to escape terror.

 

A lot of Lebanese who came to Canada could be Shiite, Sunni or Maronite Christian who left to get away from the perpetual state of civil war there.

 

A lot of Muslims from Africa, Bangladesh and Pakistan come to Canada to get away from poverty as much as politics and the only thing radical about them is

their desire to eat and feed themselves.

 

Then there are the Turks who consider themselves a unique type of Muslim and their radicalism is based on many things ranging from a hatred of Greeks to the Roman Catholic Church to Russia to Armenia to Bulgaria, to God knows what else today given the lunatic Erdogan.

 

The fact is to typecast all Muslims as one monolithic group is down right absurd. In fact the majority of them are victims of Muslim extremism so calling them that is well absurd.

 

The point is we in the West particularly in Canada haven't a clue about Muslims. See when they stayed in their own countries and stuck to attacking and killing Israelis, well it was something else. I mean after all the Jews asked for it they insisted on th inking they were equals to Christians and Muslims and so got this audacious idea to have their own country. Hey now they deserved what they got from Muslims.

 

Oh but wait, now they are attacking non Jews, hey now someone has noticed some of them are terrorist and its coming to Canada. Hey its one thing killing Jews in Israel, now in Paris, Berlin, Ottawa, New York, hell no.

 

Well having witnessed a terror attack in Israel and living with the reality of Muslim terrorism I don't hate Muslims but I sure as hell hear the same people who once labelled all Jews doing the same thing with Muslims now so of course my emotions are mixed on the topic.

 

My friggin people were referred to when they were coming as refugees like Syrian refugees are now.

 

Of course I get antsy. I know how real Muslim terrorism and extremism is. I think Trudeau is an idiot for having gone to radical Mosques and sucking up to radical leaders and putting a radical Muslim mp as his Middle East advisor.

 

On the other hand I supported Stephen Harper 100% but I read carefully what Harper said and did and Harper did not hate Muslims nor did he talk of them as evil but he sure as hell did not mince words about extremist Islamic ideology.

 

I say we have to find a balanced approach where we don't lump peaceful Muslims or Muslims who have escaped Muslim violence and extremism in with the vicious Muslims who have misappropriated their religion and use it the way the KKK or neo Nazis have Christianity or certain radical Hindus, Siekhs, Jews, Buddhists have.

 

For God's sakes we have Buddhists in the former Burma/Mynammar who have committed genocide. We have radical Hindus and Siekhs who have engage din terror. We had an extremist lunatic from the extremist Jewish settler community on the West Bank kill Yitzhak Shamir.

 

We need a way to screen them all out.

 

Just don't ask me to hate Muslims when we discuss the topic. Just been too much of that. Can't do it. Can't stand it done to Jews, Israelis, Muslims anyone.

 

Can't stand to have to read about lumping any entire people as evil. Just can't do it. I won't repeat any holocaust against anyone else. Won't do it no matter how bad it gets.

 

I know to many soldiers who have suffered so much more than me who have come back, don't sleep and have told me in what they don't say why I have

no right to hate and in so doing making a farse of what they fought for. Won't do it. As long as a soldier dies and/or has nightmares, I owe them not to hate.

 

Won't do it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Omni]

1 minute ago, bcsapper said:

Oh, I believe it.  It's one of the reasons I avoid tarring at all costs.  But I also strive not to avoid the truth about Islam, and Muslims, which, while only being truly awful when referring to some, is, nevertheless, truly awful when referring to those to whom it applies.

Very true. After I overnight in Dubai I jumped on a plane to Afghanistan where of course, in certain areas you could get in some pretty serious trouble for even sniffing a beer. That troubles me no end, obviously. But at the same time there were women walking around Kabul bare faced who taught in the university there. So even within the same country you can see a diversity of how the religion, (and as I said I hate 'em all basically) is applied. I reckon that little Christianity scheme has similar realities as we speak.

[dialamah]

25 minutes ago, Omni said:

I used to drink beer in a hotel in Dubai with Muslim men and women. Believe it or not.

One of my brothers-in-law was single when I visited them in Egypt.  He used to visit Sharm-el-Shiekh a couple of times a year, where I understood he indulged in some un-Islamic activities.   My sister used to tease him about it, and he'd just laugh and claim innocence.  

[Omni]

8 minutes ago, dialamah said:

One of my brothers-in-law was single when I visited them in Egypt.  He used to visit Sharm-el-Shiekh a couple of times a year, where I understood he indulged in some un-Islamic activities.   My sister used to tease him about it, and he'd just laugh and claim innocence.  

I spent some "innocent times" working on Kish Island. 

[Army Guy]

28 minutes ago, Omni said:

Very true. After I overnight in Dubai I jumped on a plane to Afghanistan where of course, in certain areas you could get in some pretty serious trouble for even sniffing a beer. That troubles me no end, obviously. But at the same time there were women walking around Kabul bare faced who taught in the university there. So even within the same country you can see a diversity of how the religion, (and as I said I hate 'em all basically) is applied. I reckon that little Christianity scheme has similar realities as we speak.

There are always examples of out of the norm behavior, Yes there are women that walk around bare faced in Kabul, a major city center.....but lets put that into some context, there are more women in Burkas than not.....But then I've also seen a young women beaten to death over defacing a Koran....before anuone could react she was beaten, and stoned to death in a public street, then burnt, all of this right next to a place of worship.....with over 1000 people in attendance, including Afghan police....who tried to no avail to save her....It would be later discovered it was not her that defaced the Koran , but someone else.....the power of the MOB.....and while I agree there are similar things that happen in the west.....I'm pretty sure Christians do not take their children to public stoning's to take part in a brutal killing of women, children, or the elderly...perhaps if you look hard enough at our past maybe....

[Goddess]

The fact that women all over the world are being beaten, maimed and killed over the hijab/burqua/whatever AND it is a tangible symbol of religious extremism/dehumanizing/denigrating of women tells me I don't want it in my country.

[DogOnPorch]

Too late on that account. Here to stay...and grow...and put you in your place.

[carepov]

I think that the most significant root cause of most people's fear of Islamic terrorism is our inability to comprehend large numbers and to put them into perspective.

-There are 1,600,000,000 Muslims in the world - counting this high at a rate of 1/second would take 50 years!
-There are an estimated 106,000 Islamic terrorists in the world (http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/26/opinion/bergen-schneider-how-many-jihadists/)
-99.99 % of Muslims are not terrorists.  Let's say CNN mis-counted and there actually 1,000,000 Islamic terrorists, then still 99.9 % of Muslims are not.

-In 2015, 28,328 people died due to terrorism worldwide (including 6,924 perpetrators) (http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/susan-jones/11774-number-terror-attacks-worldwide-dropped-13-2015)
-There were ~58,000,000 totals deaths, giving a rate of 0.5 terrorist deaths per 1000 deaths
-There were 1.25 million road traffic deaths globally in 2013 (http://www.who.int/gho/road_safety/mortality/en/), giving a rate of 22 deaths/1000 - 44 times greater than terrorist deaths
-In the US, you are WAY more likely to die from gun violence compared to terrorism 120 times more likely if you include 9/11/2001.   Since 9/11 for every terrorism death there are over 1,000 gun violence deaths. (http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/02/us/oregon-shooting-terrorism-gun-violence/)

Let's put more effort into preventing the top killers!

Top Killers (http://www.livescience.com/3780-odds-dying.html)

The first eight diseases listed in the table below were the top eight killers in the United States in 2014, whereas the rest are shown for comparison purposes.

Cause of death	Number of U.S. deaths	Rate of deaths
1. Cardiovascular disease	614,348	193 per 100,000
2. Cancer	591,699	186 per 100,000
3. Chronic lower respiratory disease	147,101	46 per 100,000
4. Accidents	136,053	43 per 100,000
5. Strokes	133,103	42 per 100,000
6. Alzheimer's disease	93,541	29 per 100,000
7. Diabetes	76,488	24 per 100,000
8. Influenza and pneumonia	55,227	17 per 100,000
Drug overdoses	47,055	15 per 100,000
Kidney disease	48,146	15 per 100,000
Intentional self-harm	42,773	13 per 100,000
Septicemia	38,940	12 per 100,000
Liver disease	38,170	12 per 100,000
Transportation accidents	37,195	12 per 100,000
Parkinson's disease	26,150	8 per 100,000
Firearm assault	10,945	3 per 100,000
HIV	6,721	2 per 100,000
Pedestrian deaths	6,258	2 per 100,000

[DogOnPorch]

Yes: the 'acceptable casualties' argument . Casualties from Islam will be low...almost insignificant. So we should just accept that a small percentage of Muslims (no way to tell which) will go off the rails on the crazy train and shoot-up the Christmas party.

[Goddess]

38 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

Too late on that account. Here to stay...and grow...and put you in your place.

Too many people will argue "But it's her CHOICE to wear it". As if a woman participating in her own oppression makes it less oppressive. 

The "choice" appears to be: Wear it because you're a filthy woman who must cover her dirty whore body at all times, or be beaten and/or killed. Sort of like when you're mugged and given the "choice" your money or your life.

I also feel there is something desperately wrong with a religion or culture that finds 5 and 6 year old girls so incredibly sexy that they must cover up too.

Edited December 28, 2016 by Goddess

[DogOnPorch]

Just now, Goddess said:

Too many people will argue "But it's her CHOICE to wear it". As if a woman participating in her own oppression makes it less oppressive. 

The "choice" appears to be: Wear it because you're a filthy woman who must cover her dirty whore body at all times, or be beaten and/or killed. Sort of like when you're mugged and given the "choice" your money or your life.

A woman was executed in Afghanistan this week...beheaded. Her crime? Visiting a family member in another city without male escort.

[Goddess]

7 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

A woman was executed in Afghanistan this week...beheaded. Her crime? Visiting a family member in another city without male escort.

I guess she made her "choice".

[Guest]

30 minutes ago, carepov said:

I think that the most significant root cause of most people's fear of Islamic terrorism is our inability to comprehend large numbers and to put them into perspective.

-There are 1,600,000,000 Muslims in the world - counting this high at a rate of 1/second would take 50 years!
-There are an estimated 106,000 Islamic terrorists in the world (http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/26/opinion/bergen-schneider-how-many-jihadists/)
-99.99 % of Muslims are not terrorists.  Let's say CNN mis-counted and there actually 1,000,000 Islamic terrorists, then still 99.9 % of Muslims are not.

-In 2015, 28,328 people died due to terrorism worldwide (including 6,924 perpetrators) (http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/susan-jones/11774-number-terror-attacks-worldwide-dropped-13-2015)
-There were ~58,000,000 totals deaths, giving a rate of 0.5 terrorist deaths per 1000 deaths
-There were 1.25 million road traffic deaths globally in 2013 (http://www.who.int/gho/road_safety/mortality/en/), giving a rate of 22 deaths/1000 - 44 times greater than terrorist deaths
-In the US, you are WAY more likely to die from gun violence compared to terrorism 120 times more likely if you include 9/11/2001.   Since 9/11 for every terrorism death there are over 1,000 gun violence deaths. (http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/02/us/oregon-shooting-terrorism-gun-violence/)

Let's put more effort into preventing the top killers!

Top Killers (http://www.livescience.com/3780-odds-dying.html)

The first eight diseases listed in the table below were the top eight killers in the United States in 2014, whereas the rest are shown for comparison purposes.

Cause of death	Number of U.S. deaths	Rate of deaths
1. Cardiovascular disease	614,348	193 per 100,000
2. Cancer	591,699	186 per 100,000
3. Chronic lower respiratory disease	147,101	46 per 100,000
4. Accidents	136,053	43 per 100,000
5. Strokes	133,103	42 per 100,000
6. Alzheimer's disease	93,541	29 per 100,000
7. Diabetes	76,488	24 per 100,000
8. Influenza and pneumonia	55,227	17 per 100,000
Drug overdoses	47,055	15 per 100,000
Kidney disease	48,146	15 per 100,000
Intentional self-harm	42,773	13 per 100,000
Septicemia	38,940	12 per 100,000
Liver disease	38,170	12 per 100,000
Transportation accidents	37,195	12 per 100,000
Parkinson's disease	26,150	8 per 100,000
Firearm assault	10,945	3 per 100,000
HIV	6,721	2 per 100,000
Pedestrian deaths	6,258	2 per 100,000

You realise this an utterly ridiculous argument, don't you?  If one of your loved ones was beaten to death with a teaspoon the fact that it was the least common cause of death in the world this year wouldn't change things for you.

Silly argument.

Edit>  Also, speaking for myself, you understand, one is not afraid of Islamic terrorism.  One is just disgusted by it.

Edited December 28, 2016 by bcsapper

[DogOnPorch]

5 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

You realise this an utterly ridiculous argument, don't you?  If one of your loved ones was beaten to death with a teaspoon the fact that it was the least common cause of death in the world this year wouldn't change things for you.

Silly argument.

Acceptable casualties...like a B-17 mission over Hamburg.

[GostHacked]

24 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

A woman was executed in Afghanistan this week...beheaded. Her crime? Visiting a family member in another city without male escort.

Got a cite for that?

[Guest]

1 minute ago, DogOnPorch said:

Acceptable casualties...like a B-17 mission over Hamburg.

Obviously some sort of teaspoon registry is called for.