Immigration of religious fanatics

[Argus]

Since the powers that be keep locking up other topics which morph into this one I thought I would make one with what usually becomes the main subject of conversation anyway.

I think we can look around the world and see which countries work and which don't. The ones that work, in terms of both economic success and quality of life, nearly always have values which include tolerance and secularism. Maybe someone can think of one that doesn't, but I can't see it offhand.

Therefore, importing hundreds of thousands of people every year whose religious values are completely and violently incompatible with both secularism and tolerance is, in my opinion, culturally suicidal. These people are making up a growing percentage of the population, and thus the electorate, and there is little evidence polite Canada is shifting their views much on these basic subjects.

Take the Hasidim. They've been in Canada for generations, and in the US, as well. Their fundamentalist beliefs have not changed an iota. So why do people think other extremely religious people will? Or that their children will? http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/06/13/welfare-reform-not-for-the-orthodox.html

Muslim numbers have been doubling every 7-10 years as a result of high immigration and high birth rates.  In 1971 their numbers were so low they didn't even have a separate category in the census. Now there are three times more of them than Jews. Within ten years they will outnumber the native population. This despite continuing documentation which shows that, as immigrants, they have among the lowest economic success in Canada. 

The very well-known values of Islam, as stated in both their religious texts, and in the laws and expressed values of Muslim majority countries, rejects secularism and tolerance. There are about 50 Muslim majority countries, and none could be described using either term. They are also extremely misogynistic, and have a fundamental belief in the certainty of their religion, and in the need to punish those who disagree. Pew Research surveys have shown enormous support in the source countries where Canada recruits, for brutal and violent punishments for those who offend against the moral values of Islam, including execution for blaspheme, adultery, homosexuality, and apostasy supported by up to 99% of the population.

And yet, the most resistant to either shifting the source of our immigrants, or screening them for values are so-called progressives, who seem to have a naive belief that once in Canada they will abandon their eons long support for these values and Sharia law, and become polite, secular Canadians. The evidence says otherwise. The wearing of the hijab and niqab, which are a statement of Islamist dedication and a rejection of secular society, grows among Canadian Muslim women, and the children of immigrants are MORE, not less religious than their parents.

If Canada wants to endanger its peaceful secular and tolerant society, it should work to deter the immigration of religious fanatics whose value system opposes everything about that society.

 

Edited November 15, 2016 by Argus

[DogOnPorch]

Islam in any dose larger than reading 1001 Arabian Nights is the worst possible addition to a free open society.

No exceptions.

[carepov]

1 hour ago, Argus said:

Since the powers that be keep locking up other topics which morph into this one I thought I would make one with what usually becomes the main subject of conversation anyway.

I think we can look around the world and see which countries work and which don't. The ones that work, in terms of both economic success and quality of life, nearly always have values which include tolerance and secularism. Maybe someone can think of one that doesn't, but I can't see it offhand.

Therefore, importing hundreds of thousands of people every year whose religious values are completely and violently incompatible with both secularism and tolerance is, in my opinion, culturally suicidal. These people are making up a growing percentage of the population, and thus the electorate, and there is little evidence polite Canada is shifting their views much on these basic subjects.

Take the Hasidim. They've been in Canada for generations, and in the US, as well. Their fundamentalist beliefs have not changed an iota. So why do people think other extremely religious people will? Or that their children will? http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/06/13/welfare-reform-not-for-the-orthodox.html

Muslim numbers have been doubling every 7-10 years as a result of high immigration and high birth rates.  In 1971 their numbers were so low they didn't even have a separate category in the census. Now there are three times more of them than Jews. Within ten years they will outnumber the native population. This despite continuing documentation which shows that, as immigrants, they have among the lowest economic success in Canada. 

The very well-known values of Islam, as stated in both their religious texts, and in the laws and expressed values of Muslim majority countries, rejects secularism and tolerance. There are about 50 Muslim majority countries, and none could be described using either term. They are also extremely misogynistic, and have a fundamental belief in the certainty of their religion, and in the need to punish those who disagree. Pew Research surveys have shown enormous support in the source countries where Canada recruits, for brutal and violent punishments for those who offend against the moral values of Islam, including execution for blaspheme, adultery, homosexuality, and apostasy supported by up to 99% of the population.

And yet, the most resistant to either shifting the source of our immigrants, or screening them for values are so-called progressives, who seem to have a naive belief that once in Canada they will abandon their eons long support for these values and Sharia law, and become polite, secular Canadians. The evidence says otherwise. The wearing of the hijab and niqab, which are a statement of Islamist dedication and a rejection of secular society, grows among Canadian Muslim women, and the children of immigrants are MORE, not less religious than their parents.

If Canada wants to endanger its peaceful secular and tolerant society, it should work to deter the immigration of religious fanatics whose value system opposes everything about that society.

 

I'm glad that Canada is not accepting entire counties but just individuals from these countries (many of them with values that are quite different than the majority in their home country).

These new Canadians seem to be fitting in well:

" Seven in ten Muslims living in Canada are immigrants, and as followers of a minority (i.e., non-Christian) religion, questions are sometimes raised about their attachment and even their loyalty to this country. As was documented in 2006, Muslims as a group are as connected to Canada, if not more so, than the non-Muslim population, and this bond has strengthened over the past decade. Pride and belonging The vast majority of Muslims feel very proud to be Canadian, and this sentiment has strengthened since 2006, especially among Muslims in Quebec. The greatest sources of pride continue to be the country’s freedom and democracy, as well as its multiculturalism and diversity. PRIDE IN CANADA. Survey research evidence has long documented that immigrants to Canada are among the most loyal and proud citizens of their adopted country. This well applies to Muslims, with more than eight in ten (83%) saying they are very proud to be Canadian (with most of the remainder indicating they are “somewhat” proud), and this proportion has increased by 10 percentage points since 2006. This upward trend in strong pride is evident across most of the Muslim community, but is most significant in Quebec (where it has jumped 30 percentage points, to 77%), "

" GREATEST DISLIKE ABOUT CANADA. When Muslims are asked to name their least favourite thing about Canada, the top mention is once again the climate or cold weather "

"Muslims tend to believe their community wants to integrate into Canadian society rather than remain distinct. Non-Muslims hold the opposite view, although less so than a decade ago. Muslims and nonMuslims generally agree on the values immigrants should adopt when moving to Canada." 

http://www.environicsinstitute.org/uploads/institute-projects/survey of muslims in canada 2016 - final report.pdf

 

[?Impact]

1 hour ago, Argus said:

I think we can look around the world and see which countries work and which don't. The ones that work, in terms of both economic success and quality of life, nearly always have values which include tolerance and secularism. Maybe someone can think of one that doesn't, but I can't see it offhand.

...

Muslim numbers have been doubling every 7-10 years as a result of high immigration and high birth rates.  In 1971 their numbers were so low they didn't even have a separate category in the census. Now there are three times more of them than Jews. Within ten years they will outnumber the native population.

 

Several of the gulf countries have good economic success, and high quality of life for their citizens (e.g. Qatar). They achieve this by exploiting foreign workers and the environment, no different than western countries are doing.

...

I don`t see the total number of annual immigrants doubling every 7-10 years. It increased dramatically in the 80`s, but has remained relatively stable since. Yes there seems to be a effort at the moment to increase that number, but we will have to see what actually happens. Muslims have been increasing in the percentage of immigrants, but there is a ceiling to that increase so making assumptions without taking that into consideration is misleading.

[Moonlight Graham]

Any immigrants we bring in to Canada need to follow the law. and the constitution/Charter of Rights & Freedoms, and religious rights should almost always defer to other rights and what should belong " in a free and democratic society".  So honour killings and stonings, well I don't care if they're a part of your religion they're against our other rights,.

I don't have a problem with ensuring that people who become permanent residents and Canadian Citizens swear to abide by our very basic values and putting in reasonable screening for this.  ie: If you want to turn Canada into a state run by Sharia Law then you're not welcome.

I'm absolutely welcoming of immigrants but I want them to 1) be absolutely loyal to Canada if they want to live here, and 2) make a basic effort to assimilate into Canadian culture and feel that they're a part of our national group.

I'd like to see the test for citizenship toughened.  I'd also like to see dual citizenship scrapped.  When you become a part of the nation of Canada, you should be forced to commit ultimate loyalty to Canada and renounce your former citizenship(s).  I want to know that you're loyal to Canada and Canada only.  I want to know that when sh*t hits the fan, and there's a war between Canada and your former country, you will choose to give your allegiance with Canada.  I don't want you running off to fight back home to fight or causing violence here in the name of another foreign country or group.  I once had a friend become a UK citizen when he lived there for only a short time, then a year later he got a job on the opposite end of the world and after 10 years he still never went back. He had no loyalty to the UK, and he got to keep his Canadian citizenship.  I'm sure if he was forced to give up his Canadian citizenship he would have thought a lot longer and harder and made a far more serious decision whether to become a UK citizen or not. You should have to sacrifice something to be here and show your loyalty, and leaving your crappy third world homeland to come and live in one of the richest, freest, greatest countries in the world isn't exactly much of a sacrifice.

I would also require all permanent residents to learn an official language (unless they have a cognitive or other disability that would prevent this).  You can't assimilate if you can't speak a local language.  I know a few people in Canada who are PR's who have been here for over 3 decades and still can't speak English or French, let alone read or write it.  For refugees, I would fund free ESL/FSL classes for them and give them 10 years to learn one official language and if not then goodbye.

Also, I don't see how wearing a hijab is less secular than wearing a cross around the neck or a jew wearing yamaka.  They aren't necessarily saying everyone has to wear a hijab or Islam has to be the state religion.  Niqab's I'm uncomfortable with and I don't know how I feel about them, and burkas well I'm not a fan.

[carepov]

14 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

I'd like to see the test for citizenship toughened.

It has recently been toughened and I remember a story about how most old-stock Canadians would fail the old test.  I am quite sure that new Canadians now know more about Canadian history than old-stock.

15 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

I'd also like to see dual citizenship scrapped.  When you become a part of the nation of Canada, you should be forced to commit ultimate loyalty to Canada and renounce your former citizenship(s).  I want to know that you're loyal to Canada and Canada only.  I want to know that when sh*t hits the fan, and there's a war between Canada and your former country, you will choose to give your allegiance with Canada.  I don't want you running off to fight back home to fight or causing violence here in the name of another foreign country or group.  I once had a friend become a UK citizen when he lived there for only a short time, then a year later he got a job on the opposite end of the world and after 10 years he still never went back. He had no loyalty to the UK, and he got to keep his Canadian citizenship.  I'm sure if he was forced to give up his Canadian citizenship he would have thought a lot longer and harder and made a far more serious decision whether to become a UK citizen or not. You should have to sacrifice something to be here and show your loyalty, and leaving your crappy third world homeland to come and live in one of the richest, freest, greatest countries in the world isn't exactly much of a sacrifice.

This is a regressive idea.  There are many advantages to dual citizenships and there is no downside to allowing them.  Canada at war - seriously?

For example (probably the most common), a person is born in the US to one or two Canadian citizens.  Why would you deny that person the opportunities that dual citizenship allows.

Many economic immigrants leave behind pensions that they can collect in their old age.  Some establish business and trade with their homeland.

In the same way that you can have a second, third or more child and still love your first child just as much; and you can love your community, city, province, country, and planet you can be loyal to more than one country.

[PIK]

You are either a citizen of Canada or not. Really it is pretty stupid to say that you are a citizen of 2 different countries. And bringing in more Muslims will only destroy this country in the long run.   Any more immigration should becoming from  Europe, not Africa or any Muslim country. And to do with refugees ,our money would be better spent building proper refugee camps close to thier homes and hopefully they will be able to return. But if these countries are becoming shit holes what do you think this country will be in 30 yrs. Call me a racist or bigot, but the time has come to tell these countries to clean up thier act, just running off to here ,will not solve anything.

[Argus]

19 hours ago, carepov said:

I" Seven in ten Muslims living in Canada are immigrants, and as followers of a minority (i.e., non-Christian) religion, questions are sometimes raised about their attachment and even their loyalty to this country. As was documented in 2006, Muslims as a group are as connected to Canada, if not more so, than the non-Muslim population,

You left out the finding that Muslims consider themselves Muslims first, and Canadians second.

[Argus]

18 hours ago, ?Impact said:

Several of the gulf countries have good economic success, and high quality of life for their citizens (e.g. Qatar). They achieve this by exploiting foreign workers and the environment, no different than western countries are doing.

No, they do this by sitting on a vast pool of oil, which accounts for their economic success. As for quality of life, it is legal to beat your wife in the gulf states, and you can be sent to prison for life for a few grams of marijuana. People can be whipped for consuming alcohol or imprisoned for having sex outside marriage. Homosexuality is illegal. And the foreign workers they exploit basically have no rights and can be beaten and even killed without much concern from the government. Stop trying to elevate the kind of culture, laws and values they hold to match ours. 

18 hours ago, ?Impact said:

I don`t see the total number of annual immigrants doubling every 7-10 years. It increased dramatically in the 80`s, but has remained relatively stable since. 

Unfortunately, the facts say you're wrong. 

1971 33,430 0.1% of population

1981 98,165 0.3%

1991 253,265 0.9%

2001 579,600 1.8%

2011 1,054,945 3.2%

2021 2.100,000 6.5% projected

2031 4.5,000,000 13% projected

[Argus]

17 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Any immigrants we bring in to Canada need to follow the law. and the constitution/Charter of Rights & Freedoms, and religious rights should almost always defer to other rights and what should belong " in a free and democratic society".  So honour killings and stonings, well I don't care if they're a part of your religion they're against our other rights,.

Did you know that once they become citizens Muslims get to vote? That means as their numbers grow, they get to influence what our laws are. Venal politicians do their best to cater to ethnic groups like this, and I can easily see them having a strong impact on laws in the future, particularly those about morality. My guess is it will start with something about 'protecting children' which will involve action against porn. That will evolve into action against nudity, and then public dress and public behaviour and speech, including on television and on the internet.

Edited November 16, 2016 by Argus

[Goddess]

38 minutes ago, Argus said:

Did you know that once they become citizens Muslims get to vote? That means as their numbers grow, they get to influence what our laws are. Venal politicians do their best to cater to ethnic groups like this, and I can easily see them having a strong impact on laws in the future, particularly those about morality. My guess is it will start with something about 'protecting children' which will involve action against porn. That will evolve into action against nudity, and then public dress and public behaviour and speech, including on television and on the internet.

It's that slippery slope that bothers me, too....and watching other countries slide around on it.

[carepov]

2 hours ago, Argus said:

You left out the finding that Muslims consider themselves Muslims first, and Canadians second.

Where do you find that?

Here is the rest of the section:

"Pride and belonging The vast majority of Muslims feel very proud to be Canadian, and this sentiment has strengthened since 2006, especially among Muslims in Quebec. The greatest sources of pride continue to be the country’s freedom and democracy, as well as its multiculturalism and diversity. PRIDE IN CANADA. Survey research evidence has long documented that immigrants to Canada are among the most loyal and proud citizens of their adopted country. This well applies to Muslims, with more than eight in ten (83%) saying they are very proud to be Canadian (with most of the remainder indicating they are “somewhat” proud), and this proportion has increased by 10 percentage points since 2006. This upward trend in strong pride is evident across most of the Muslim community, but is most significant in Quebec (where it has jumped 30 percentage points, to 77%), Strong pride is the predominant sentiment across all groups, but increases east to west, young to old, low to high income, and (among immigrants) by length of time living in Canada. Canadian-born (that is, second generation) Muslims are among the most proud (91%), with this view less evident among those born in Africa (74%) and the Middle East/West Asia (75%). Strong pride is somewhat more widespread among those who identify primarily as Canadians (93%) compared with those who identify primarily as Muslim (84%), but it is the latter group that has shown the most growth since 2006 (up 17 points). This means that having a strong Muslim identity is increasingly associated with also having strong pride in being Canadian.

Across the general (non-Muslim) population, three-quarters (73%) say they are very proud to be Canadian, with another 19 percent indicating they are somewhat proud, and only four percent who are not very or not at all proud. These results are essentially unchanged from 2006, and the proportion that is very proud is now roughly equivalent across the country, with the notable exception of Quebec (where 47% are very proud, compared with 45% in 2006). Among non-Muslims, native born (74%) and immigrants (74%) are equally likely to express strong pride in their Canadian identity "

[DogOnPorch]

And fight them until there is no fitnah and [until] the religion, all of it, is for Allah . And if they cease - then indeed, Allah is Seeing of what they do.

---Proud to be a Canadian

[?Impact]

6 hours ago, Argus said:

No, they do this by sitting on a vast pool of oil, which accounts for their economic success.

As I already said, exploiting the environment.

6 hours ago, Argus said:

1971 33,430 0.1% of population

Not sure where you are getting your information from, but it is obvious not based on reality. I just checked, and 1971 was 121,900. Your recent years are completely out of touch with the possible exception of 1991 which was only about 10% above the real number of 232,802.

[WestCoastRunner]

6 hours ago, Goddess said:

It's that slippery slope that bothers me, too....and watching other countries slide around on it.

Yes let's be very afraid of those Muslims who are having sex with our white Canadians, having babies with our white Canadians and wait..... marrying them too!  

Pretty soon our white population will be so diluted that the light browns will take over. 

[DogOnPorch]

2 minutes ago, WestCoastRunner said:

Yes let's be very afraid of those Muslims who are having sex with our white Canadians, having babies with our white Canadians and wait..... marrying them too!  

Pretty soon our white population will be so diluted that the light browns will take over. 

 

Islam is a religion. Even white people can join the cult.

[WestCoastRunner]

3 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

Islam is a religion. Even white people can join the cult.

What's your point? 

[DogOnPorch]

You're portraying Islam as a skin colour.

It's not.

It's a religion based on hatred for Jews.

[WestCoastRunner]

6 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

You're portraying Islam as a skin colour.

It's not.

It's a religion based on hatred for Jews.

You have reduced Islam to a hatred of Jews.  I have no clue how to respond to this. 

[DogOnPorch]

1 minute ago, WestCoastRunner said:

You have reduced Islam to a hatred of Jews.  I have no clue how to respond to this. 

Say, "Shall I inform you of [what is] worse than that as penalty from Allah ? [It is that of] those whom Allah has cursed [Jews] and with whom He became angry and made of them apes and pigs and slaves of Taghut. Those are worse in position and further astray from the sound way."

Quran 5:60

[?Impact]

6 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

It's a religion based on hatred for Jews.

 

Please explain, note that Islam come from the 7th century, long before the post World War II creation of the Israeli state.

 

 

[DogOnPorch]

1 minute ago, ?Impact said:

 

Please explain, note that Islam come from the 7th century, long before the post World War II creation of the Israeli state.

 

 

Your ignorance of the Quran does not make you an expert re: Islam.

[Moonlight Graham]

8 hours ago, carepov said:

It has recently been toughened and I remember a story about how most old-stock Canadians would fail the old test.  I am quite sure that new Canadians now know more about Canadian history than old-stock.

You're right, they added more years to qualify for citizenship, which is great.  And you're right, I'm sure Canadian-born people would fail the test, which is a shame and says a lot of the failure of our education system.  Maybe they were taught once long ago in school but forgot.  Ask an immigrant in 20 years to take the test again and they'd probably fail.

Quote

This is a regressive idea.  There are many advantages to dual citizenships and there is no downside to allowing them.  Canada at war - seriously?

Canada has been at war the last 15 years or so.  In fact, many people have been arrested or killed in Canada because they attacked or threatened to attack our nation from within Canada in the name of a foreign homeland or organization that we were at war with.  And many have fled or tried to flee the country to fight in foreign wars, sometimes against Canada.

Quote

For example (probably the most common), a person is born in the US to one or two Canadian citizens.  Why would you deny that person the opportunities that dual citizenship allows.

At a reasonable age, say 18 or 22, force a person to choose their citizenship.  I don't want citizens who want citizenship for convenience, I want citizens who wish to make Canada their home.  If you were born in Canada and grew up in Canada, maybe it's a different story, I'd have to think about it.  These are complex issues.

Quote

Many economic immigrants leave behind pensions that they can collect in their old age.  Some establish business and trade with their homeland.

We could easily figure something out to deal with pensions.  I don't see how trade with another country would be affected by renouncing citizenship, unless they want to live in their former country for significant periods, in which case I don't want you to be a citizen anyways.

Quote

In the same way that you can have a second, third or more child and still love your first child just as much; and you can love your community, city, province, country, and planet you can be loyal to more than one country.

I disagree.  1 loyalty, choose your allegiance wisely.

Edited November 17, 2016 by Moonlight Graham

[DogOnPorch]

But, hey...let's not be coy. You know that Islam and Judaism are enemies. Christians also get loving treatment from Islam.

https://quran.com/8/39

And fight them until there is no fitnah and [until] the religion, all of it, is for Allah . And if they cease - then indeed, Allah is Seeing of what they do.

[?Impact]

4 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

Your ignorance of the Quran does not make you an expert re: Islam.

I see you like to cherry pick verses. I suggest the following:

Verily, those who have attained to faith [in this divine writ], as well as those who follow the Jewish faith, and the Christians, and the Sabians – all who believe in God and the Last Day and do righteous deeds-shall have their reward with their Sustainer; and no fear need they have, and neither shall they grieve. (Quran 2:62)

O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that you may know each other (not that you may despise (each other). Verily the most honored of you in the sight of God is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And God has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things). (Quran 49:13)

 

You see there is far more to the Quran than the mindless hate filled drivel you read in your right wing white supremacist websites.