Refugees visit food banks.

[Goddess]

1 minute ago, dialamah said:

@Betsy.  I will agree to screening for Sharia law as long as we can also screen Christians for their un-Canadian values.   This would include objecting to gay marriage/activity, objecting to abortion, teaching abstinence instead birth control, using family, social and religious pressure to dictate how women dress, the belief that you should shun or disfellowship lapsed or disobedient Christians and the belief that it is a Christian duty to evangelize and try to convert people.

People are free to protest gay marriage, abortion, etc.  Protesting these things is not illegal and in general people will not act on their feelings to the point of murdering others,  because they respect the law in Canada and don't wish to go to jail for their extreme views.

The difference is that those who support Sharia law view it as ABOVE Canadian law.  ABOVE any country's laws.  I do believe we need to screen for views on Sharia.  Just not sure how to go about that - it's not like anyone is going to say "Yes, I fully intend to abide by Sharia law and murder my daughter if she refuses to wear the hijab in Canada".  "Yes, I fully intend to not allow my wives out of the house at any time."  "Yes, I'm going to take my Canadian born daughters and have them mutilated in another country".  They know something like honour-killing is illegal in Canada, but when Sharia law trumps Canadian law in their view, now it's a problem.

 

[The_Squid]

3 minutes ago, Goddess said:

The difference is that those who support Sharia law view it as ABOVE Canadian law.  ABOVE any country's laws.

So you don't think Christians can view their own "laws" above those of Canada?

I think it's perfectly reasonable to screen for anti-Canadian Christian views (anti-gay marriage for example) as much as it is reasonable to screen for a Muslim's views.

[Goddess]

Quote

So you don't think Christians can view their own "laws" above those of Canada?

Perhaps they do.  But Christians are generally waiting for Jesus to come back and fix all the "problems". Christians are directed to follow the laws of the land but keep their viewpoints on gays/abortions etc.

Islam directs its' followers to do the killings etc. themselves.

[Smallc]

I don't think you really know all that much about what Islam itself says to do.

[The_Squid]

15 minutes ago, Goddess said:

Perhaps they do.  But Christians are generally waiting for Jesus to come back and fix all the "problems". Christians are directed to follow the laws of the land but keep their viewpoints on gays/abortions etc.

Islam directs its' followers to do the killings etc. themselves.

The bible also say who should be put to death (gays for example) but, like the Muslim world, most followers ignore these.

Many Christians would still like being gay or gay marriage or certain women's rights to be illegal.  This can be interpreted as an anti-Canadian value that should be weeded out before it gets into the country.

[dialamah]

@Goddess.  On my phone, so not using quote function.

Yes, people can protest anything as long as they remain within the law in their actions.   One thing that I believe is different about the two groups is that if its Christians demonstrating for something, nobody pays much attention.  If its Muslims, people start claiming that they're imposing Sharia law and we're all going to be in Niqabs and beards.   

Christians almost universally believe that God's law is above man's.   When the laws contradict and Christians attempt to ignore secular laws in favor of God's law, there are legal consequences for them.   The most common issue that I'm aware of involve medical treatment for children.  The law allows adults to die for lack of medicine or blood, but not children.   

Even if a Muslim believes that Sharia law is ideal for all people, its not a lot different than people who believe Biblical law is best - they believe what they believe, but mostly follow the law of the land.  This is true for Muslims as well as Christians.   If they do decide that Sharia law impels them to kill gays or an non-believer, the law deals with that, the same way they'd do for a non-Muslim who decided to kill gays or maybe even a Muslim.  

 

[Goddess]

Polls from Muslim  and non-Muslim countries show they agree with and want death for gays, honour killings, female subordination, etc.  Even if they live in countries where the laws do not agree.

Some Christians may argue for those same things but it would be interesting to see how many Christians would agree with and go along with the whole-sale slaughter of gays, female subordination etc.  I don't think it would be as high.

 

[?Impact]

1 hour ago, Goddess said:

The difference is that those who support Sharia law view it as ABOVE Canadian law.  ABOVE any country's laws.

I swear (or affirm)
That I will be faithful
And bear true allegiance
To Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second
Queen of Canada
Her Heirs and Successors
And that I will faithfully observe
The laws of Canada
And fulfil my duties 
As a Canadian citizen.

 

What do you want, a double-secret special promise?

[Goddess]

 

Quote

 

I swear (or affirm)
That I will be faithful
And bear true allegiance
To Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second
Queen of Canada
Her Heirs and Successors
And that I will faithfully observe
The laws of Canada
And fulfil my duties 
As a Canadian citizen.

 

What do you want, a double-secret special promise?

 

I'm pretty sure Aqsa Parvez' father said those exact words. Didn't stop him.

As I said, I don't know how you vett these kinds of motivations.

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, Goddess said:

 

I'm pretty sure Aqsa Parvez' father said those exact words. Didn't stop him.

As I said, I don't know how you vett these kinds of motivations.

You don't, of course, that's why screening is not a viable option.  Deportation should be a viable option.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, dialamah said:

@Betsy.  I will agree to screening for Sharia law as long as we can also screen Christians for their un-Canadian values.   This would include objecting to gay marriage/activity, objecting to abortion, teaching abstinence instead birth control, using family, social and religious pressure to dictate how women dress, the belief that you should shun or disfellowship lapsed or disobedient Christians and the belief that it is a Christian duty to evangelize and try to convert people.

I'm guessing you won't for that so how about this:  I support arresting and jailing people who break the law.  Even if they are Muslim or Christian and even if their God, their scripture, their Imam or their pastor told them to do it.

What it comes down to, is that no-one should ever apply the restrictions based on their religious beliefs to anyone but themselves.  I don't care what any religion says about anything, it ought never be considered when setting laws  The separation of church and state should be absolute.

Edited November 15, 2016 by bcsapper

[dialamah]

2 hours ago, Goddess said:

Polls from Muslim  and non-Muslim countries show they agree with and want death for gays, honour killings, female subordination, etc.  Even if they live in countries where the laws do not agree.

Some Christians may argue for those same things but it would be interesting to see how many Christians would agree with and go along with the whole-sale slaughter of gays, female subordination etc.  I don't think it would be as high.

 

Have you seen polls describing how Muslims favor whole-sale slaughter of gays (or even just killing them)?   I couldn't find them using the words Muslims, approve, believe, gays, killing, murder, slaughter, homosexual in various combinations.   

I did find this research, though:   http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/07/22/muslims-and-islam-key-findings-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/

Muslims are not intent on spreading Sharia throughout the world:

Quote

 a Pew Research Center survey of Muslims in 39 countries asked Muslims whether they want sharia law, a legal code based on the Quran and other Islamic scripture, to be the official law of the land in their country. Responses on this question vary widely. Nearly all Muslims in Afghanistan (99%) and most in Iraq (91%) and Pakistan (84%) support sharia law as official law. But in some other countries, especially in Eastern Europe and Central Asia – including Turkey (12%), Kazakhstan (10%) and Azerbaijan (8%) – relatively few favor the implementation of sharia law.

 

Not all Muslims believe that abortion is wrong:

Quote

 

In 13 countries however, at least one-in-ten Muslims say abortion is not a moral issue. This view is especially common in some countries in the Middle East-North Africa region; 34% in Jordan, 22% in Egypt and 21% in Iraq say they do not consider abortion to be a moral question.

 

 

A minority view, certainly, but not all Muslims believe homosexuality is wrong:

Quote

 

Only in three countries do as many as one-in-ten Muslims say that homosexuality is morally acceptable: Uganda (12%), Mozambique (11%) and Bangladesh (10%).

In most countries surveyed, fewer than one-in-ten Muslims believe homosexual behavior is not a moral issue. The exceptions are Bangladesh (14%), Guinea Bissau (14%) and Bosnia-Herzegovina (10%).

 

 

The survey did not ask how many Muslims approved of killing homosexuals; what I can tell you is that my brother-in-law does not think it is approved, because the Quran does not command it.   

The entire report is pretty interesting, and paints a much different picture of Muslims than posters such as Argus and DoP would have you believe.    Perhaps you'll take some time to look at it.

[Army Guy]

Why does it have to be in a poll...is that the final level of what we except now....Are you saying that ALL muslims except Homosexuality.....because the media is full of these events happening in most muslim countries.....would Gay men be safe in countries such as Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, or perhaps even some of the western friendly countries like Jordan, Egypt....would Gays be safe down town safe enough to show Affection for each other.. Any poll cover that question.....I've been to a lot of these countries, and trust me they have freaked out for a lot less.....Burning a Quran, was responsible for over 200 deaths .....several were burned by one American soldier.....a women was beaten to death over the acusation  of damaging a quran......weeks later they proved she was innocent.....but the crowd killed her over something some said....Lets not talk about other things such as a women accusing her husband of cheating.....she is marched out in a soccer stadium and shot in the back of the head.....how many women are killed by families because they were raped by a stranger.....Can women even leave the house without a male escort.......any polls covering that stuff.....I bet I can find a u tube video about one or all the above....watch for your own eyes as these peaceful Muslims snuff out lives ....standing around and cheering during the killing.....DO we dismiss this evidence...because there are no polls.... 

14 minutes ago, dialamah said:

The survey did not ask how many Muslims approved of killing homosexuals; what I can tell you is that my brother-in-law does not think it is approved, because the Quran does not command it.

The Quran commands a lot of things.....and it can be interrupted in lots of ways......ask your brother in law if there are any quotes in the Quran that dictate for a life to be taken.....and does he believe in these passages or does he place them aside because of the laws in NA....

 

[betsy]

14 hours ago, dialamah said:

@Betsy.  I will agree to screening for Sharia law as long as we can also screen Christians for their un-Canadian values. 

You're not understanding the big difference here, dialamah.   Your caveat does not apply here. 

Canada was founded on Christian values.  Not Islam.

Christian values, is, Canadian! 

 

 

Edited November 15, 2016 by betsy

[Altai]

1 hour ago, betsy said:

You're not understanding the big difference here, dialamah.   Your caveat does not apply here. 

Canada was founded on Christian values.  Not Islam.

Christian values, is, Canadian! 

 

 

Canada was not found on anything. It was invaded by Western countries. See my topic related with the issue. You dont have right to "own" Canada.
 

 

[Altai]

10 hours ago, Army Guy said:

The Quran commands a lot of things.....and it can be interrupted in lots of ways......ask your brother in law if there are any quotes in the Quran that dictate for a life to be taken.....and does he believe in these passages or does he place them aside because of the laws in NA....

 

Really ? Then we can also interpret it as "Muslims love homosexual people" too. Problem solved.

Edited November 15, 2016 by Altai

[dialamah]

@Army Guy, I think you misread what I posted, since I said nothing about "all Muslims accept homosexuality".   I merely pointed out that Islam is not a monolithic belief system based on killing gays, refusing women's rights and imposing Sharia law.   I used the Pew surveys because the poster I was responding to claimed that surveys proved all Muslims want to engage in wholesale slaughter of gays.

Acts of barbarity are wrong no matter who does them:  killing a woman because she criticized her husband is barbaric no matter if you are Christian/Muslim/Atheist.    Bringing up that shit to beat me over the head trying to force me to hate and fear Muslims is not going to work, because that kind of behavior can be found any day of the week in Western countries.  For some reason, however, because it's not a Muslim doing it, it's not as bad.

No, gays are not safer in the countries you mentioned.    They're not safe in Canada or the States either.   It's true we don't have laws on the books to arrest them any more, although Louisiana was arresting gay men as recently as 2013.   Canada has done much better, having not arrested any gay people since the 1960s.   So we can pat ourselves on the back for that, but since such changes have occurred within our life-times and are not entirely accepted across society, lets not get too smug yet.

My brother-in-law, who was born, raised and still lives in Egypt, tells me that the Qaran forbids murder, period.   The only approved reason is self-defense.   He disapproves of homosexuality and apostasy, but doesn't think they rate a death penalty.  In Egypt, gays can be arrested and jailed.    I tell you this not to defend Egypt, or any other country who practices human rights abuses, but to AGAIN point out that Muslims have a wide range of beliefs, all based on the Quran, just as Christians have a wide range of beliefs based on the Bible.    Bringing up acts of violence and cruelty people engage in to prove that Islam is evil and bad, and Muslims are barbarians is as smart as me taking what some Christians do and using that to prove all Christians are bad. 

 And FFS, please don't start with "Yeah, but Christians/Westerners don't (whatever)".  Most of them aren't currently doing "whatever", but they have in the past and according to news reports, a lot of them are thinking they can start again thanks to Trump's election.    The same thing happened after Brexit:  nice White Christian people decided they didn't have to be nice any more.   And the same thing will happen in Canada if we decide to elect an alt-right leader.   We're not as different from those 'evil Muslims' as you'd like to think, and demonizing them while ignoring our own behavior is hypocritical.

Kinda like this:

"What, you mean those dirty misogynistic Muslims assault women on the street!  How dare they!  We are better than that!"

"Oh, Trump likes to grab women he's just met by the pussy?  How cute!  I'm sure he didn't mean any harm".

 

 

Edited November 15, 2016 by dialamah

[dialamah]

2 hours ago, betsy said:

You're not understanding the big difference here, dialamah.   Your caveat does not apply here. 

Canada was founded on Christian values.  Not Islam.

Christian values, is, Canadian! 

 

 

Well, if you knew anything about Islam other than what you read on alt-right websites, you'd know that the Quran and Bible are practically interchangeable when it comes to moral teachings and have a lot of the same stories, although the Bible is a little more violent than the Quran in it's story telling.     It is humanistic secularism in this country  that keeps the violence and hateful aspects of the Christian religion at bay; unfortunately, countries in the Middle East decided to go a different route.

Qualification:  I like Christianity and Islam about the same.   Most Christians are nice people; most Muslims are nice people.  It's a shame that a few of the Christians and a Muslim on this board are so ready to engage in provocative and hateful rhetoric.   

 

[Guest]

3 hours ago, betsy said:

You're not understanding the big difference here, dialamah.   Your caveat does not apply here. 

Canada was founded on Christian values.  Not Islam.

Christian values, is, Canadian! 

 

 

Fair enough.  As someone has already stated with regard to a different issue:

Thanks.  We'll take it from here.

[Goddess]

1 hour ago, dialamah said:

I merely pointed out that Islam is not a monolithic belief system based on killing gays, refusing women's rights and imposing Sharia law.  

I get what you're saying, that there are instances of all these things in the Christian world, too.  However, I disagree with your statement above.  The whole basis of Islam is imposing Sharia law, which includes the killing of gays and denial of women's rights.

Google the myth of the tiny muslim minority and you'll see what I mean.  The stats from Egypt may interest you.  

[dialamah]

I googled.  Breitbart and Ben Shapiro...they exhibit such objectivity.   Shall I start referencing Daily Kos or Crooks and Liars?   

The whole basis of Islam is not imposing Sharia law ... Unless you only believe what right-wingers tell you.  

I know you've had bad experiences with Muslims, especially the men; you've found them to be rude, arrogant, disrespectful.   I've also had bad experience with a couple of Muslim men, but I've had worse experience with White/Western/Christian men.  How about you?  Have you decided the vast majority of men are assholes because some have behaved badly?  Do you believe all Christians are morally bankrupt because of the experiences you've had?

The Pew research I linked yesterday shows that support for Sharia Law even in Muslim majority countries varies from almost 100 percent to almost no support.   Muslims who live outside of Muslim majority countries are not interested in imposing Sharia Law on non-Muslims, any more than most Christians are interested in imposing Christian law on non-Christians.

 

[Argus]

20 hours ago, dialamah said:

@Betsy.  I will agree to screening for Sharia law as long as we can also screen Christians for their un-Canadian values.   This would include objecting to gay marriage/activity, objecting to abortion, teaching abstinence instead birth control, using family, social and religious pressure to dictate how women dress,

This desperate attempt you keep making to pretend that western Christians are in any way, shape or form equivalent to Muslim fundamentalists is tiresome and utterly dishonest. No one suggested excluding a Muslim because he disapproves of gay marriage. The thought is to exclude those who believe all gays should be executed. Are you really incapable of understanding the unsubtle difference between those positions? I don't care if an immigrant objects to teaching abstinence instead of birth control. I do care if he wants to murder his daughter or sister or niece because she's seen chatting with a boy without benefit of chaperone. Again, an unsubtle gaping chasm exists between the two values. As for using family, social or religious pressures to dictate how women dress that is virtually unknown among western Christians but heavily, heavily present among newcomers from certain religious groups. And I might add that you have defended the right of those religious groups to pressure women into conforming as desperately as you have everything else about extreme Islam since you got on this site.

[Bonam]

1 hour ago, dialamah said:

  Muslims who live outside of Muslim majority countries are not interested in imposing Sharia Law on non-Muslims, any more than most Christians are interested in imposing Christian law on non-Christians.

 

Devout Christians are very much interested in imposing Christian law on non-Christians. Just look at the right wing in the US, who want to impose their hatred of gays and abortion on the entire population. Devout Muslims, too, want to impose their laws on non-Muslims, with the most significant difference being that more of them seem to be willing to use violence in their attempt to do so.

[Argus]

20 hours ago, The_Squid said:

So you don't think Christians can view their own "laws" above those of Canada?

I think it's perfectly reasonable to screen for anti-Canadian Christian views (anti-gay marriage for example) as much as it is reasonable to screen for a Muslim's views.

Being 'anti-gay marriage' is not anti-Canadian. As much as you think otherwise no one has established the progressive mindset as being required to be a Canadian.

[Smallc]

2 minutes ago, Argus said:

Being 'anti-gay marriage' is not anti-Canadian. As much as you think otherwise no one has established the progressive mindset as being required to be a Canadian.

Sorry, but that's wrong.  Being Canadian means believing in equality.