Progressives and Islam

[DogOnPorch]

...And don't you think its kinda odd that in the monolithic One True Faith you and Omar espouse that those Muslims didn't destroy those non-muslim works? Bizarre isn't it when there is only One True Faith?

But they did...Hagia Sofia was a big church...not a mosque.

Don't forget the 4th Crusade. A very important Crusade that.

Yes, pure horror. But, the claim here is not if sacking cities is good...it's if Islam preserved Western Civilization.

[Peter F]

DogOnPorch:

But, the claim here is not if sacking cities is good...it's if Islam preserved Western Civilization.

But that cities were sacked IS the claim you made. Muslims, you said, burnt looted raped their way across the Medieval world. You claimed that in response to Cyber's claim that Western Civilization was preserved through Muslims.

Muslims did preserve ancient texts. Muslims studied them. Muslims produced their own works based upon those ancient texts. The Muslim Lords of Granada actually encouraged such things! Weird. But they read somewhere in the Quran that the Prophet said Education is important. Learning is important. Some Imams said that that was a proper thing to do. So they did. And Western Civilization arose from the Medieval as a result.

[DogOnPorch]

DogOnPorch:

But that cities were sacked IS the claim you made. Muslims, you said, burnt looted raped their way across the Medieval world. You claimed that in response to Cyber's claim that Western Civilization was preserved through Muslims.

Muslims did preserve ancient texts. Muslims studied them. Muslims produced their own works based upon those ancient texts. The Muslim Lords of Granada actually encouraged such things! Weird. But they read somewhere in the Quran that the Prophet said Education is important. Learning is important. Some Imams said that that was a proper thing to do. So they did. And Western Civilization arose from the Medieval as a result.

Same response: Invading Muslim armies were trying to destroy the West. Not save it.

[Peter F]

Same response: Invading Muslim armies were trying to destroy the West. Not save it.

Of course they were. And those that preserved the ancient texts were not trying to save Christian Europe either. But they did nevertheless.

[Michael Hardner]

Hey... it looks like yet another Islam thread has drifted into historical debate, scriptural parsing and the usual.

Please get back to what this has to do with progressives, thank you.

[cybercoma]

Hey... it looks like yet another Islam thread has drifted into historical debate, scriptural parsing and the usual.

Please get back to what this has to do with progressives, thank you.

The Rennaissance was progress from the Medieval Era and the birth of progressive ideologies.

[Argus]

Theres a reason to condemn it all, and Iv done so over and over again. I WANT the militant minded people on both sides to kill each other. I think it would be fantastic.

So you want the people who want to slaughter the innocent to kill the people on our side trying to stop them from slaughtering the innocent?

In other words, you want the islamic terrorists in Mali, say, to murder all the Canadian soldiers who are sent over there, and hopefully get killed themselves too?

Despising the military is a typical trait of progressives.

Edited September 15, 2016 by Argus

[Argus]

Here's a confused progressive asking the same kind of question. He compares progressives who reflexively defend Islam to American conservatives who reflexively defend guns - often using the same kind of rhetorical defenses, too.

It makes absolutely no sense, based upon normal political ideologies, why liberals would defend Islam. If I write something mocking Mormonism, Catholics, Baptists or Scientology, I’ll rarely see a single complaint from liberals. Yet on an article such as this, I’ll get slammed relentlessly and called a bigot and a racist for pointing out facts.

...

As a progressive, I’m a staunch defender of women’s rights, gay rights, religious freedom and equality. Those are values I don’t see reflected in the vast majority of Muslim nations, especially in The Middle East and south Asia. Right now in Saudi Arabia there are people in prison for preaching equality and freedom. In several large Muslim nations, women aren’t allowed to be out in public unless they’re covered. In at least a few others, homosexuality is still punishable by death. I’m struggling to understand this; can someone explain to me how any of that is liberal or why liberals would defend this religion, while seemingly never having any problems bashing right-wing Christian idiocy?

http://www.forwardprogressives.com/many-liberals-defend-islam-way-gun-fanatics-defend-gun-violence/

Edited September 15, 2016 by Argus

[eyeball]

The problem conservatives have with progressives when it comes to Islam is that progressives refuse to condemn Islam with the same extreme prejudice conservatives do and without overlooking the West's complicity in the geopolitical vandalism its committed in much of the Islamic world.

Edited September 15, 2016 by eyeball

[Peter F]

Here's a confused progressive asking the same kind of question. He compares progressives who reflexively defend Islam to American conservatives who reflexively defend guns - often using the same kind of rhetorical defenses, too.

It makes absolutely no sense, based upon normal political ideologies, why liberals would defend Islam. If I write something mocking Mormonism, Catholics, Baptists or Scientology, I’ll rarely see a single complaint from liberals. Yet on an article such as this, I’ll get slammed relentlessly and called a bigot and a racist for pointing out facts.

...

As a progressive, I’m a staunch defender of women’s rights, gay rights, religious freedom and equality. Those are values I don’t see reflected in the vast majority of Muslim nations, especially in The Middle East and south Asia. Right now in Saudi Arabia there are people in prison for preaching equality and freedom. In several large Muslim nations, women aren’t allowed to be out in public unless they’re covered. In at least a few others, homosexuality is still punishable by death. I’m struggling to understand this; can someone explain to me how any of that is liberal or why liberals would defend this religion, while seemingly never having any problems bashing right-wing Christian idiocy?

http://www.forwardprogressives.com/many-liberals-defend-islam-way-gun-fanatics-defend-gun-violence/

Lets see.... In Canada we have women's rights, gay rights, religious freedom and equality. AND there are also muslims in Canada.

In other lands they may or may not have women's rights, gay rights, religious freedom and equality. Therefore we must condemn muslims in Canada.

Doesn't make a lot of sense.

[cybercoma]

Doesn't make any sense and in fact contributes to othering and excluding people, driving them into the arms of radical organizations that offer them an opportunity to see the West as an enemy that will never accept them and to fight back violently against you that.

Edited September 15, 2016 by cybercoma

[DogOnPorch]

Doesn't make any sense and in fact contributes to othering and excluding people, driving them into the arms of radical organizations that offer them an opportunity to see the West as an enemy that will never accept them and to fight back violently against you that.

Think about this statement if it was about the Civil Rights Movement.

Don't fight Jim Crow, it will only drive more white folks into the arms of the KKK.

[cybercoma]

Except I'm quoting the international intelligence community and you're making an incorrect comparison.

White people weren't the ones being othered and kept from contributing to society. That was black people and it did lead to violence and still does to this day.

Edited September 15, 2016 by cybercoma

[DogOnPorch]

I think it fits just fine. Two wrongs don't make a right.

[cybercoma]

It fits. Not in the way you intended.

[DogOnPorch]

It fits. Not in the way you intended.

My point stands: you don't fight evil by ignoring it.

[cybercoma]

The problem is you have no flipping idea what's evil and what isn't. You think ALL Muslims are evil. You can't for the life of you understand that we're overseas protecting Muslims. You don't see that Muslims there are fighting against the evil. You don't see that Muslims here are serving our country to fight it as well. To you, the religion itself is evil regardless of who's following it because you're an intolerant anti-theist who is completely irrational when it comes to understanding the complexity of these geopolitical struggles.

Edited September 15, 2016 by cybercoma

[The_Squid]

you're an intolerant anti-theist

I think this is the wrong label.... Anti-theists generally are not against just a particular religion while being accepting of all the others.

If there was ever a viewpoint that fit the label of Islamophobe, it's the stuff DoP spouts,

[DogOnPorch]

The problem is you have no flipping idea what's evil and what isn't. You think ALL Muslims are evil. You can't for the life of you understand that we're overseas protecting Muslims. You don't see that Muslims there are fighting against the evil. You don't see that Muslims here are serving our country to fight it as well. To you, the religion itself is evil regardless of who's following it because you're an intolerant anti-theist who is completely irrational when it comes to understanding the complexity of these geopolitical struggles.

I understand you disagree. But my point and analogy stands.

[dre]

So you want the people who want to slaughter the innocent to kill the people on our side trying to stop them from slaughtering the innocent?

In other words, you want the islamic terrorists in Mali, say, to murder all the Canadian soldiers who are sent over there, and hopefully get killed themselves too?

Despising the military is a typical trait of progressives.

No I want the conservative hardliners that are pining for violence on both sides to fight to the death swords and axes in a big stadium.

[Argus]

Lets see.... In Canada we have women's rights, gay rights, religious freedom and equality. AND there are also muslims in Canada.

In other lands they may or may not have women's rights, gay rights, religious freedom and equality. Therefore we must condemn muslims in Canada.

Doesn't make a lot of sense.

Well, it's your straw man. I don't think anyone here has called for wholesale condemnation of Muslims in Canada, but a recognition of the more barbaric and backward social values many Muslims have, and for progressives to stop shielding, defending and enabling this behaviour.

[Argus]

No I want the conservative hardliners that are pining for violence on both sides to fight to the death swords and axes in a big stadium.

Again, you are desperately trying to suggest they are the same and they most definitely are not.

You are equating Muslims who demand death and destruction on gays, Jews, and assorted westerners with people who say we should be very wary of those Muslims and of their backward, barbaric social views. Which is, again, implicitly defending those views by Muslims.

You're saying "Oh I hate those Muslims who demand death for Jews and gays and also those westerners who criticize them. They're both just as bad as one another!"

In the 1930s you'd be saying "Oh I hate those Nazis and the warmongering westerners like Churchill. They're both the same!"

Is your real life name Chamberlain, by any chance?

Edited September 15, 2016 by Argus

[GostHacked]

My point stands: you don't fight evil by ignoring it.

Replace evil with trolls and you are on to something.

[DogOnPorch]

Replace evil with trolls and you are on to something.

Stop trolling.

[dre]

Again, you are desperately trying to suggest they are the same and they most definitely are not.

You are equating Muslims who demand death and destruction on gays, Jews, and assorted westerners with people who say we should be very wary of those Muslims and of their backward, barbaric social views. Which is, again, implicitly defending those views by Muslims.

You're saying "Oh I hate those Muslims who demand death for Jews and gays and also those westerners who criticize them. They're both just as bad as one another!"

In the 1930s you'd be saying "Oh I hate those Nazis and the warmongering westerners like Churchill. They're both the same!"

Is your real life name Chamberlain, by any chance?

I'm not talking about constructive criticism. I'm talking about the people supporting real acts of violence. Its fine to speak out against things you don't like, but when you support massive acts of violence like 911, or massive bombings and invasions that's a problem for all of us.

Edited September 16, 2016 by dre