Wasting Canadian Blood and Treasure

[Argus]

It's notable Canada will be part of a mostly third world peaekeeping force, but third world troops are notoriously incompetent and unreliable and their leadership is notoriously corrupt.

Do not rely on the mercenaries in blue helmets of Third World countries – who participate in UN missions to earn hard cash for their governments – for Canadian force protection. They have proved in UN mission after UN mission to be essentially unreliable. There have been exceptions, but there is a world of difference between a British battalion and one from, say, Bangladesh.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/ottawa-must-be-clear-this-is-not-traditional-peacekeeping/article31599702/

[Smallc]

Canadian equipment isn't as bad as you've been led to believe. The Conservatives did a good job renewing most of it. For a mission like this it'll do just fine. The commanders certainly think so.

Edited August 30, 2016 by Smallc

[Argus]

Canadian equipment isn't as bad as you've been led to believe. The Conservatives did a good job renewing most of it. For a mission like this it'll do just fine. The commanders certainly think so.

The commanders are making a cold blooded decision that if their troops are in a war and being shot and killed it's going to be damned hard for the pacifist Liberals to refuse to buy them new equipment no matter how much their lips curl every time they think of soldiers.

Of course, the commanders aren't going to be living in a hut in Africa.

[eyeball]

Africa is no different than the ME insomuch as its a mess of countries divided according to the old colonial borders drawn by Europeans bent on imperialism. Our only role in this should be to provide humanitarian aid while pressing those who took part in the Scramble For Africa and the hell-hole this geo-political vandalism helped create, to reconcile what they did and make reparations for it.

[Army Guy]

Canadian equipment isn't as bad as you've been led to believe. The Conservatives did a good job renewing most of it. For a mission like this it'll do just fine. The commanders certainly think so.

I guess all those media reports are full of shit then....And what exactly did the cons renew., and in comparison what capability did they dismantle or dismiss........as you've been quoted here in this forum that they actually did very little , great talkers.....but lacked any action.....I will give them this they've down more than the liberals....but then again nothing is easy to beat....

Our present equipment will do the job just fine, when compared against 3rd world equipment. but there is huge capability gaps in our forces that have to be addressed....

[Smallc]

They did very little for the Navy (more like too little too late). Other than a few missing capabilities, the army was left very capable from experience and purchases for Afghanistan. The same is true of Air Force logistics aircraft. This kind of mission is well within our abilities.

[Argus]

They did very little for the Navy (more like too little too late). Other than a few missing capabilities, the army was left very capable from experience and purchases for Afghanistan.

And its equipment got worn down and worn out there and was supposed to be replaced. Trudeau said no, then announced he was sending them to another dangerous mission in Africa. For no reason. Just because he wants to pump out his chest at the UN and make them like him.

[DogOnPorch]

Whipping it out...as it were.

[Smallc]

And its equipment got worn down and worn out there and was supposed to be replaced.

And it is - the TAPV has begun arriving, the LAV 6.0 is mostly delivered, and the new medium trucks will be delivered next year. The TOW system has been reactivated, and we have new Chinooks and armed Griffons. What we lack is air and artillery defence. That shouldn't be a problem in Africa.

Throwing around the falsehood that the Liberals stopped procurement over and over again doesn't make it true. The moved the money for the CSC, JSS, and Hornet replacement, just as the Conservatives did (twice) and for the same reasons - it can't be spent now.

BTW, the second AOPS started construction this week, and the third CCG OFSV will soon begin construction. That means we now have 3 large vessels under construction for the RCN, and 2 for the CCG - it's been a while since that was the case.

Edited August 31, 2016 by Smallc

[Army Guy]

They did very little for the Navy (more like too little too late). Other than a few missing capabilities, the army was left very capable from experience and purchases for Afghanistan. The same is true of Air Force logistics aircraft. This kind of mission is well within our abilities.

That was not the question was it, What did the Conservatives renew, and in comparison what capabilities was lost during their reign ?.... to put it all into perspective ....What new equipment did the army actually receive and what was the numbers of what was purchased.....I think you'll find the cons did buy some equipment, but in low numbers, and mostly for use in afghan only, with some samples for training in Canada.

yes there are some exceptions, such as C-17, and c-130J....but overall did the cons really do DND any favors....

[Army Guy]

And it is - the TAPV has begun arriving, the LAV 6.0 is mostly delivered, and the new medium trucks will be delivered next year. The TOW system has been reactivated, and we have new Chinooks and armed Griffons. What we lack is air and artillery defence. That shouldn't be a problem in Africa.

Throwing around the falsehood that the Liberals stopped procurement over and over again doesn't make it true. The moved the money for the CSC, JSS, and Hornet replacement, just as the Conservatives did (twice) and for the same reasons - it can't be spent now.

BTW, the second AOPS started construction this week, and the third CCG OFSV will soon begin construction. That means we now have 3 large vessels under construction for the RCN, and 2 for the CCG - it's been a while since that was the case.

WOW the TPV is coming....and the LAV 6.0....ask Smallc if and when they are all delivered will each Mech Inf Bn have enough vehs for all it's troops, or will there still be major shortfalls.....

New medium trucks.....Yes there is a purchase of 2500 9.5 ton vehs to replace a fleet of just over 7500 2.5 ton trucks....Government has said this purchase will have to do, and DND will have to curb it's need for heavy lift....A 9.5 truck is not a medium truck but a heavy truck....the numbers do not work out, nor does this contract even come close to the veh fleets now, sitting in fields awaiting to be sold as scrap.....those vehs pulled from army inventory are the LSVW (1 ton truck), MLVW 2.5 ton truck, and the HLVW trucks 7.5 ton...All SMP vehs or standard military pattern, extreme off road....the new vehs are not SMP vehs....

Tow systems are not going to be general issue to all units unless they purchase more. and todate there is no new contract.....there is a few working systems pulled from storage....Our surplus systems were sold off years ago....with no other at system, unless you include the M72 system, which we used for bunkers...could hardly take on modern armour....

Chinnoks were a good investment.....to bad we did not get more....

Armed griffons.... we have always had them, only problem is once they are armoured up, then armed , they can't carry troops....

So while Smallc thinks we are good to go for this next mission, I wonder if he has a seat on the C-17 that will bringing in the first troops.....Because i'm sure the troops have a long list of shortfalls they'd like to have....With no major American force near by to depend on I wonder if this is a good idea as well....

[Smallc]

We're not supporting all the troops at once. Your complaints are meaningless for the missions we're undertaking. The Canadian forces are very capable of what's being asked is them for this, for Latvia, and for any other missions we're currently doing.

[dre]

We fight them over there while they're weak and disorganized, or we leave them to grow strong and powerful and then fight them over here. I know which I think makes sense.

Those are false choices. Fight them over there makes them stronger not weaker. In order for them to grow and recruit they need to be able to sell their "evil west" narrative. So when we go over there and kill a few hundred thousand people it plays right into their hands.

That's why the war on terror corresponds with a massive INCREASE in terrorism around the world.

Trudeau shouldn't be wasting my money on ANY of this BS. And if we are going to spend on the military it should be to create a military corps of engineers starting with the RCE as a foundation. These guys could be deployed where we can actually do some real good... Getting electricity and fresh water flowing in war torn areas post conflict. This is the real way to save lives. And when there's no work for them to do overseas they could work on Canada's aging infrastructure, build bridges, roads etc. They could even renovate the prime ministers house.

Edited September 1, 2016 by dre

[Bonam]

Africa is no different than the ME insomuch as its a mess of countries divided according to the old colonial borders drawn by Europeans bent on imperialism. Our only role in this should be to provide humanitarian aid while pressing those who took part in the Scramble For Africa and the hell-hole this geo-political vandalism helped create, to reconcile what they did and make reparations for it.

In case you are unaware, everyone who took part in the "scramble for Africa" is now dead. Maybe you can find some 120 year old lady somewhere whose husband once sailed to Africa or something and demand reparations from her?

Edited September 2, 2016 by Bonam

[eyeball]

The institutions that were used to commit these crimes are very much alive and well and are being held to account in increasing numbers. Institutions like the Crown for example. The US is probably only a few court cases away from being able to rely on the Age of Discovery rulings by past court cases still used to justify ignoring responsibility for it's genocide of native Americans.

Indigenous pressure on the Pope to renounce and apologize for the actions it authorized European nations to take could cause a lot of unravelling amongst countries still fighting responsibility. The governments most responsible for these crimes knew full well what they were doing was wrong and we do too.

Westpahlian principles alone should have given enough cause to pause. Ignorance is certainly no excuse.

[Army Guy]

That's the problem Smallc your not supporting anyone, you seemed fine with having a few examples of wpns systems available is great enough to do the job, but once that thinking is exposed as inadequate you spout off with your go to line, we have new equipment on the way.....

I've shown you dozens of examples of how poorly our forces is equipped....and funding shortfalls forcing units to park vehs, ships, and aircraft to save money and yet you refuse to see it for what it truly is....everything is pink in rosey in your world....and you refuse to even contemplate that Canadians are incapable of doing this to our forces.....it could never happen, nor will it....Time to wake the frig up...it's being done, it is here,and now.....

[Smallc]

No - it's like this. I don't really care. Some equipment is new, some is old. That's normal for government. There isn't enough money. That's normal for government. Suck it up. That's the way the taxpayers want it.

I used my go to line as I wasn't interested in again citing evidence from multiple websites only to be again ignored and replied to through anectdotes.

Canada will do fine at this just as Canada ha done fine before. If there are glaring shortcomings that affect the mission they'll be addressed in time. The military is just a government department when it all comes down to it.

[Argus]

Canada will do fine at this just as Canada ha done fine before. If there are glaring shortcomings that affect the mission they'll be addressed in time. The military is just a government department when it all comes down to it.

Except the bureaucrats at Service Canada don't die if they're equipment doesn't work.

[Smallc]

Except the bureaucrats at Service Canada don't die if they're equipment doesn't work.

And people in other departments do. Being in the military is hardly the most dangerous job in the world.

[Army Guy]

No - it's like this. I don't really care. Some equipment is new, some is old. That's normal for government. There isn't enough money. That's normal for government. Suck it up. That's the way the taxpayers want it.

I used my go to line as I wasn't interested in again citing evidence from multiple websites only to be again ignored and replied to through anectdotes.

Canada will do fine at this just as Canada ha done fine before. If there are glaring shortcomings that affect the mission they'll be addressed in time. The military is just a government department when it all comes down to it.

That's it in a nut shell isn't "I really don't care" Don't fret this is something all our soldiers, and their families have know for a long time.....And yet you waste your breath telling everyone everything is fine go back to sleep.......as if to hide your shame that things are really not as you have been saying....

I'm also sure that your words are going to console those grieving soldiers and their families when it comes to light that all it would have taken is money to save loved ones.....

And Canadians begin to wonder why soldiers have developed the attitudes they have...when our own country treats them so badly.....

Your opinions have been exposed as Bullshit....and now you said your not interested or to lazy to refute any of the dozens of sources I've provided....Fair enough....I know where I stand, no need to reply as I to, are not interested in any more of your bullshit....

[Smallc]

Like I've said before - DND is the largest federal department. I'm not seeing the need for yet more money spent on the department. There's waste there, just like everywhere else. There is new equipment here and arriving, there is training going on. Not everyone can get what they want all the time.

It's precisely attitudes like yours that have changed my view from being one of spend 2% of GDP to leave things as they are - with the 16th largest budget in the world.

[Argus]

Like I've said before - DND is the largest federal department. I'm not seeing the need for yet more money spent on the department. There's waste there, just like everywhere else. There is new equipment here and arriving, there is training going on. Not everyone can get what they want all the time.

It's precisely attitudes like yours that have changed my view from being one of spend 2% of GDP to leave things as they are - with the 16th largest budget in the world.

You mean his realism upsets your faithful dedication to Justin Trudeau?

Your continued clinging to that number is ludicrous, you know. We probably have one of the world's largest budgets for a lot of things given every public servant seems to make at least a hundred thousand a year. That doesn't mean we're even anywhere near as good as other countries with a tenth the budget.

Like, for a hundred million dollars Russia funds an armored regiment. For a hundred million dollars, Canada's military funds a small section of its HR branch in Ottawa.

[Smallc]

You mean his realism upsets your faithful dedication to Justin Trudeau?

My 'faithful dedication' in this case is not confined to Trudeau. The Conservatives were very good to the army, other than letting a few key things lapse (air defence)

Your continued clinging to that number is ludicrous, you know. We probably have one of the world's largest budgets for a lot of things given every public servant seems to make at least a hundred thousand a year. That doesn't mean we're even anywhere near as good as other countries with a tenth the budget.

I've already shown you that you're wrong on this - our personnel costs are below most of our European allies and falling.

This mission is well within our capabilities.

[Army Guy]

"Your" not seeing the need, because you have already expressed you don't give a shit.....Your not interested in the topic, nor do you want to here anything about.....And yet for a guy that does not give a shit your waste a lot of time expressing your opinion about it.....Opinions that are based on here say, or false info....or taken out of context....and when presented contrary sources you out right dismissed them, saying it cant be as bad as all of that.....

AH, yes blame my attitude for forming your opinions....and yet it has become a sport with Canadians to see how much they can starve our military and still make them dance on a string when we whistle....And then they become surprised or pissed off like you when you find out that soldiers have an attitude towards the same majority that gets it's rocks off torturing our military....as if it earns them some liberal badge of honor......a place in the liberal heavens.....

Mean while Canadian vets still struggle trying to get the care the need, or any assistance from the government that sent them over to these shit holes in the first place....so much so that they have taken vets to court, and said it is not the nations reasonability to look after broken soldiers........

Those that are not broken still answer the call, and do the job out of serving something bigger some thing most Canadians do not know of or care about.....and because of that they fear those same soldiers that do nothing more than protect them in tough times.....and all they get back in return is spit upon, or told STFU.....we pay your wages....we pull the strings.....beaten with a stick and locked back up in the cage....until the next photo op, or flood....

Yes smallc your one of them.....stand up take your applause you've earned it...

[Big Guy]

Joining our forces is career decision. I think the vast majority of our soldiers know what they are getting into and still choose that career. There appear to be a philosophical shift in the way our government wishes to use the military. It wants to move from "peacemaking" (as the Americans call engagements in nation building) to peacekeeping - which most Canadians seem to prefer.

The individual joins the military knowing that they are subject to the changing governments and/or changing whims of governments. This includes financing, deployments, foreign policy etc.

I find it fruitless when anyone complains about their career choice. They made the choice, they did so with the knowledge of the conditions and can always leave. Most of us had the opportunity to join the military as a career but chose not to do so because of the nature of the work. Others chose to join. That was their choice.