Transgender

[WestCoastRunner]

I actually wondered what your take on this would be.

On one hand there are guys claiming to be women and wanting to shower with them - as is their new found right, but on the other hand, every time this situation has arisen in the real world setting, women have shown to want no part of the experiment. There are also a number of instances with women feeling violated by guys in the dressing room/shower - as has happened in Toronto.

I can understand that of course. This is why I suggest it is introduced at a very young age. I'm sure anyone with siblings of a different gender can remember baths and not freaking out at the sight of a penis or vagina.

[Hal 9000]

I can understand that of course. This is why I suggest it is introduced at a very young age. I'm sure anyone with siblings of a different gender can remember baths and not freaking out at the sight of a penis or vagina.

That's siblings, and at a certain age - usually before puberty that stuff stops.

Saying, "we did this, so why not that", takes us back to that slippery slope argument of zero boundaries.

[WestCoastRunner]

That's siblings, and at a certain age - usually before puberty that stuff stops.

Saying, "we did this, so why not that", takes us back to that slippery slope argument of zero boundaries.

My point is why should it stop. I agree that hormones etc kick in but having no boundaries might introduce respect and equal treatment for everyone regardless of their gender identity.

[Hal 9000]

My point is why should it stop. I agree that hormones etc kick in but having no boundaries might introduce respect and equal treatment for everyone regardless of their gender identity.

So, those hillbilly families in the Ozarks are actually quite progressive then?

[WestCoastRunner]

So, those hillbilly families in the Ozarks are actually quite progressive then?

With those beliefs, this is one of the reasons why we haven't progressed towards a more inclusive society.

Edited May 28, 2016 by WestCoastRunner

[Argus]

Why is it 'ridiculous and unreasonable' to want acceptance instead of partial 'accommodation'? Sounds quite reasonable to me.

You don't think those girls would be slightly uncomfortable getting undressed before and after every practice and game around a 'girl' with a penis?

[Argus]

I can understand that of course. This is why I suggest it is introduced at a very young age. I'm sure anyone with siblings of a different gender can remember baths and not freaking out at the sight of a penis or vagina.

Siblings of the opposite sex don't bathe together when they're teenagers.

[Argus]

My point is why should it stop. I agree that hormones etc kick in but having no boundaries might introduce respect and equal treatment for everyone regardless of their gender identity.

In all likelihood what would happen would be that all the rest of the girls on the team would quit. How do you think that would leave your transgendered 'girl' feeling?

[Argus]

With those beliefs, this is one of the reasons why we haven't progressed towards a more inclusive society.

There are thousands fewer students in public school in Toronto simply because the Wynne government insisted on teaching them all sex education. Make the boys and girls undress together and you won't see a Muslim or a Sikh or a Hindu kid in public school anywhere. You want to indoctrinate other people's children with your beliefs and have no interest or care whether the parents want that or not.

http://news.nationalpost.com/toronto/chris-selley-toronto-school-calls-liberals-bluff-on-essential-sex-ed-curriculum

Edited May 28, 2016 by Argus

[WestCoastRunner]

Siblings of the opposite sex don't bathe together when they're teenagers.

Nor do they when they are of the same sex.

Edited May 28, 2016 by WestCoastRunner

[WestCoastRunner]

There are thousands fewer students in public school in Toronto simply because the Wynne government insisted on teaching them all sex education. Make the boys and girls undress together and you won't see a Muslim or a Sikh or a Hindu kid in public school anywhere. You want to indoctrinate other people's children with your beliefs and have no interest or care whether the parents want that or not.

http://news.nationalpost.com/toronto/chris-selley-toronto-school-calls-liberals-bluff-on-essential-sex-ed-curriculum

I am simply offering another point of view. views that may seem radical at first can sometimes turn out to be perfectly rational.

[TimG]

I have no problem with co Ed change rooms. Maybe if children were raised in this fashion society would truly treat everyone as equal.

Like I said: cognitive dissonance is amazing. It it leads people to make all kinds of leaps in logic to resolve contradiction.

[WestCoastRunner]

Like I said: cognitive dissonance is amazing. It it leads people to make all kinds of leaps in logic to resolve contradiction.

It doesn't hurt to have lateral thinking. Some of the greatest achievements in society involve this type of thinking.

[Scott Mayers]

The only most sensible thing to do to satisfy all but social-butterflies who like company while they shit, is to have independent washrooms for all without qualifying them. End of problem. The "Coed" option is the only OTHER option, if providing these facilities requires necessary cost savings in infrastructure and upkeep.

[BC_chick]

You don't think those girls would be slightly uncomfortable getting undressed before and after every practice and game around a 'girl' with a penis?

It's inconsistent. If you dismiss transgenderism (as some posters have done) you shouldn't allow any concessions. Or if you do accept it in principle (that they should be in the bathroom they desire), you don't worry about how it would make the dominant group feel.

Like during the civil rights movement, if you accept that blacks are equal to whites, you don't worry about how whites might feel drinking from the same fountain.

Edited May 28, 2016 by BC_chick

[Argus]

It's inconsistent. If you dismiss transgenderism (as some posters have done) you shouldn't allow any concessions. Or if you do accept it in principle (that they should be in the bathroom they desire), you don't worry about how it would make the dominant group feel.

Like during the civil rights movement, if you accept that blacks are equal to whites, you don't worry about how whites might feel drinking from the same fountain.

But girls who have penises are NOT equal to girls with vaginas. It sounds very much like you're one of those people Wente was talking about, who refuses to accept that small compromises make for much better resolutions than rigid doctrinaire rules from some central area. You can't force this on people. They simply won't accept it.

[BC_chick]

But girls who have penises are NOT equal to girls with vaginas. It sounds very much like you're one of those people Wente was talking about, who refuses to accept that small compromises make for much better resolutions than rigid doctrinaire rules from some central area. You can't force this on people. They simply won't accept it.

Yes, I'm one of those people. Screw 'civil-unions' and other gesture of partial-equality. They are nothing but a cop out. Equality is not conditional.

[TimG]

Or if you do accept it in principle (that they should be in the bathroom they desire)

There is a third option: accept it but make it clear that some social rules are based on whatever biological equipment you have and your gender identity does not entitle you to exceptions from those rules.

This is the most annoying thing about this issue. People seem to think that rules based on physical biology are somehow inherently unfair. They aren't. Perhaps if we stopped calling them men's and women's change rooms and instead labelled them 'people with vaginas' and 'people with penises'. Would that be clear enough?

Edited May 28, 2016 by TimG

[Scott Mayers]

It's inconsistent. If you dismiss transgenderism (as some posters have done) you shouldn't allow any concessions. Or if you do accept it in principle (that they should be in the bathroom they desire), you don't worry about how it would make the dominant group feel.

Like during the civil rights movement, if you accept that blacks are equal to whites, you don't worry about how whites might feel drinking from the same fountain.

I thought of a counter-argument though that might help here. Assume prisons. If one is a 'transgendered' women, should they be held in a men's prison and vice versa? AND, if simply given a choice (unforced), should one have a right to assert their gender and demand which prison they go to? Or should these too be co-ed? ...or require everyone perfect distinct personal spaces (cells and/or mandatory isolation)?

Edited May 28, 2016 by Scott Mayers

[Hal 9000]

I thought of a counter-argument though that might help here. Assume prisons. If one is a 'transgendered' women, should they be held in a men's prison and vice versa? AND, if simply given a choice (unforced), should one have a right to assert their gender and demand which prison they go to? Or should these too be co-ed? ...or require everyone perfect distinct personal spaces (cells and/or mandatory isolation)?

I think this is where some definition of transgender should should come into play. I know that the progressives love the idea of "it is whatever they want it to be", but this attitude is the stumbling point for many people.

[The_Squid]

Nor do they when they are of the same sex.

Maybe Argus did bathe with his brother when they were teenagers.... why else would he be so specific about siblings of the opposite sex?

[Bryan]

It's gotta be better than this reaction to a minority of students wanting to be treated with the same rights as any other student.

Every other student does have the exact same right.

[jacee]

I thought of a counter-argument though that might help here. Assume prisons. If one is a 'transgendered' women, should they be held in a men's prison and vice versa? AND, if simply given a choice (unforced), should one have a right to assert their gender and demand which prison they go to? Or should these too be co-ed? ...or require everyone perfect distinct personal spaces (cells and/or mandatory isolation)?

They go to protective custody.

.

[bush_cheney2004]

I agree with a reader comment from this American Irony article on requiring urinals in "women's" restrooms...."This will end very badly.... mostly for women".

“It’s really very simple. I may or may not go through with the operation. If I choose not to I shouldn’t have to spent the rest of my life feeling like bathrooms can’t be a safe space for me because I have to sit down when I could just whip it out and then be on my way.”

Addressing concerns that it might make other women uncomfortable Venus continued, “Do handicapped parking spaces make them feel uncomfortable too? Sure, we all want the closer spot, but they have special circumstances that call on us to make their lives easier. I’m just saying some transgender women should have the same consideration. It wouldn’t be that hard, just take out the tampon dispenser and put one there”

When asked why she couldn’t just urinate while standing in one of the stalls Venus replied, “That’s the type of transphobic bull***t I’ve been fighting against my entire life. If you got it, flaunt it. Don’t put it in a cage, and don’t make it wait in line at the club with all the other ladies waiting to use a stall. I just want to get in and out, because time is money and my drinks don’t buy themselves. Drunk, imperceptive men do.”

http://americanirony.us/transgender-woman-sues-government-to-force-installation-of-urinals-in-womens-bathrooms/

[Hal 9000]

Setting up and giving transgendered their own separate bathroom/showers is in no way discriminatory.