Fort McMurray wildfire

Spiderfish · May 5, 2016

Now... how did this happen when there are professionals whose job is to make sure this kind of thing doesn't happen? Who knows. Maybe they misjudged the severity of the situation. Maybe they were unprepared for fires this early in the year. Maybe they just didn't have adequate resources. Maybe they just flat out screwed up.

I'm kind of leaning toward the inadequate resources possibility...

NDP cuts fire-fighting budget while predicting "catastrophic" conditions

The accusations and insults are often bizarre, but this is an interesting debate on the facts. Why does the government think $86 million is enough to fight fires, when the job cost almost $500 million last year?

After all that, we’re still left with one question: why set the firefighting budget so low, when there’s every expectation that much more will be needed?

One reason might be that this single budget move made the deficit look about $400 million lower than it’s likely to be.

Edited May 5, 2016 by Spiderfish

msj · May 5, 2016

The beauty about the forest fire budget is that the actual spent will always be whatever the actual ends up being despite what was projected in the first place.

Good luck finding a person without a conflict of interest (i.e. wants more money) to admit that the budget had anything to do with losing the city.

Other factors such as wind, heat, cigarette or lightning, lack of humidity, lack of rain, dry conditions, will be found to be the leading causes for the loss to the surprise of no one except those trying to wield their partisan hoses ( whether it is the climate change wankers or the anti-Notley/Trudeau twits).

Edited May 5, 2016 by msj

Derek 2.0 · May 5, 2016

And I suppose that you have a greater insight which you choose not to share here? Or have you found yourself on the wrong side of a issue and chose to dismiss opposing views?

I'll offer some insight.........the scrub-pine forests of Northern Alberta are serotinous, reliant upon fire to spread their seeds...........forest fires are apart of nature and have been occurring long before there were governments to blame in the manner you are doing.......such events are very much so natural disasters...fore if they weren't, pine trees would have long since died off (what with having no way to germinate).........

If you must blame someone, blame the various levels of Government that were slow to react to this natural disaster......as cited above, the Alberta government's slashing of the forest fire fighting budget earlier this year is damning, and Notely should resign.

jacee · May 5, 2016

Of course not, but we should question why the Provincial and Federal Government didn't bring outside resources to bear sooner (there is a major army base 4-5 hours drive South in Edmonton), in the case of the GoA further fire fighters and forestry workers to fight the fires and RCMP to evacuate the city faster, and with regards to the Trudeau Government, the armed forces..................we as a country are really lucky that we didn't see a major loss of life along the evacuation route.

Its a disgrace that "evil oil companies" like Syncrude and Shell, combined with private citizens, are currently providing more relief to a city's worth of Canadians then the Governments of Alberta and Canada.

No it isn't.

But the logging companies that replanted diverse forests with monoculture tinder boxes should be chipping in too.

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Edited May 5, 2016 by jacee

jacee · May 5, 2016

The beauty about the forest fire budget is that the actual spent will always be whatever the actual ends up being despite what was projected in the first place.

If they're short-handed due to cutbacks, it means less man-hours, less success and more fire damage.

I was shocked that there were only 150 firefighters when it jumped the river.

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msj · May 5, 2016

Of course not, but we should question why the Provincial and Federal Government didn't bring outside resources to bear sooner...

Its a disgrace that "evil oil companies" like Syncrude and Shell, combined with private citizens, are currently providing more relief to a city's worth of Canadians then the Governments of Alberta and Canada.

I will await the report based on real data to tell the story of what happened and what can be done to improve the response.

I wonder about things like: when were resources asked to be brought in, what was the chain of command, the logistics of moving forces in while evacuating tens of thousands of people out, the role of ever shifting smoke and wind in preventing the effective use of air assets etc etc.

IOW: more questions than answers unless one wields a partisan hose.

Derek 2.0 · May 5, 2016

Interesting video.........on the link, two clips of Trudeau's response, the first video contains Trudeau warming up the crowd with a star wars reference then pivoting to a Canadian city burning down.........the second video is from CBC, which edit out Trudeau's star wars reference.......I don't think the North Korean media even covers for their Dear Leader as much as ~~Pravda~~ CBC does.

msj · May 5, 2016

I think people are forgetting that the city has been successfully evacuated.

This is a tragedy over pets (sad, no doubt) and property (replaceable for the most part).

Real life isn't the movies so no super heroes to save the city from certain destruction....

msj · May 5, 2016

Yes, because not making a reference to "May the force be with you" would have made all the difference.

Derek 2.0 · May 5, 2016

I will await the report based on real data to tell the story of what happened and what can be done to improve the response.

I wonder about things like: when were resources asked to be brought in, what was the chain of command, the logistics of moving forces in while evacuating tens of thousands of people out, the role of ever shifting smoke and wind in preventing the effective use of air assets etc etc.

IOW: more questions than answers unless one wields a partisan hose.

The chain of command is simple: local community government, the Province and then the Feds.........The Federal Government won't send the army in until the Alberta Solicitor General, on behalf of Premier Notely, requests it.......soldiers from Edmonton, with helicopters, could have been there in hours, not only to help the several hundred firefighters (see Notely's cuts to the fire fighting budget) on the ground, but provide relief to the tens of thousands stuck on the highway.

The question, who is responsible for the feet dragging in the response? The effect on helicopters is negligible, any ground effects from the fire are countered with a longer bucket line and flying at differing altitudes.....fixed wing just needs a bird dog for route survey and trajectory of the drop...no big deal.......the slashing of the budget, resulting in a reduced number of aerial contracts (who go elsewhere), will have had a far greater effect on an aerial response than the fire/weather itself.....

I think the forests will have regrown long before we ever see another NDP government in Alberta....

waldo · May 5, 2016

.......the slashing of the budget

oh ya, baby! Right-wingers are frothing/fuming over that... "slashing". When you actually take the time to look at the facts the NDP government cut the 'wildfire budget' by a whopping... $15 million dollars! A cut that has little/nothing to do with where historical past years funding has come from - from the Alberta government's emergency budget: in 2015, $375 million was spent fighting wildfires... funding that was not budget related; rather, came directly from emergency funds.

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waldo · May 5, 2016

But the idea that this situation must have happened because nobody ever thought of making a plan is just silly.

whether (the royal) you accepts GW/AGW/CC... or holds a view that "fires are just natural events", your preparatory planning emphasis speaks to the focus I was placing on that all too-convenient and trivial fall-back the 'Adapt-R-Us-Only' crowd always holds up as their response card to anything/everything to do with climate change impacts... "no worries, just adapt"! This singular localized event, certainly impacting and profiled as it is, is just a lower-end harbinger of what can be expected as the world continues to warm. In this case, the mass-evacuation is "only" approaching 100,000 people; notwithstanding related costs, there is/will be something to come back to... rebuild from... rebuild towards. When mass-migrations start to approach millions of persons displaced from land that is either no longer there or no longer livable/productive - that will hold quite the... adaption requirement for the global community!

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BubberMiley · May 5, 2016

I think the forests will have regrown long before we ever see another NDP government in Alberta....

You remind me of the people saying Fort McMurray deserves this because they produce oil. There is no indication that this happened as a result of anything but a terrible combination of weather factors, but you both are quick to get online to exploit this for political purposes.

Boges · May 5, 2016

whether (the royal) you accepts GW/AGW/CC... or holds a view that "fires are just natural events", your preparatory planning emphasis speaks to the focus I was placing on that all too-convenient and trivial fall-back the 'Adapt-R-Us-Only' crowd always holds up as their response card to anything/everything to do with climate change impacts... "no worries, just adapt"! This singular localized event, certainly impacting and profiled as it is, is just a lower-end harbinger of what can be expected as the world continues to warm. In this case, the mass-evacuation is "only" approaching 100,000 people; notwithstanding related costs, there is/will be something to come back to... rebuild from... rebuild towards. When mass-migrations start to approach millions of persons displaced from land that is either no longer there or no longer livable/productive - that will hold quite the... adaption requirement for the global community!

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This assumes a causal link between the fire and Climate change, something you can't really prove. Other posters have noted that this fire isn't terribly remarkable other than it's location and the wind conditions.

This argument could have been used in 2005 when New Orleans was devastated by a hurricane, yet North America hasn't seen a scourge of hurricanes destroying dozens of costal cities in the past decade. Horrific natural disasters have happened long before we started burning hydrocarbons at a large scale. Weather v Climate

Boges · May 5, 2016

Member Waldo's kin

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/tom-moffatt-karmic-tweet-1.3567368

A former Alberta NDP candidate has deleted a tweet implying a karmic connection to the raging fire in Fort McMurray, and posted an apology Wednesday evening after receiving online outrage.

Tom Moffatt, a candidate for the Lethbridge-East riding, tweeted "Karmic #climatechange fire burns CDN oilsands city #uspoli #FeelTheBern #yql #yyc #yeg #yvr #Toronto #cdnpoli" Tuesday.

I like how he dropped that Bernie Sanders reference.

Feel the Bern. GET IT!!!!???? So good. :unsure:

Edited May 5, 2016 by Boges

GostHacked · May 5, 2016

Predictions are now saying by tomorrow, the entire city will be lost.

In hindsight, they should have called in the military right away, the fire chief said it was bad on day 1 and going to get worse day by day, not sure how they are going to contain this if they even have the ability.

Some of the vids I've seen online are frighting ... like driving into the gates of Hades.

Shady · May 5, 2016

Member Waldo's kin

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/tom-moffatt-karmic-tweet-1.3567368

I like how he dropped that Bernie Sanders reference.

Feel the Bern. GET IT!!!!???? So good.

They're so compassionate aren't they?

waldo · May 5, 2016

This assumes a causal link between the fire and Climate change, something you can't really prove.

do you feel emboldened enough to take this to a related thread and support your claim that there are no causal links between forest fires proper and GW/AGW/CC?

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This argument could have been used in 2005 when New Orleans was devastated by a hurricane, yet North America hasn't seen a scourge of hurricanes destroying dozens of costal cities in the past decade. Horrific natural disasters have happened long before we started burning hydrocarbons at a large scale. Weather v Climate

a narrow focus on landfall does not speak to either the intensity or frequency of hurricanes... oceans are... "vast" - go figure! This mealy-mouthed "weather vs. climate" denier fall-back is so convenient for you - yes? And yes, no thinking/knowledgeable person should use the same fall-back if some denier points to a huuuge snow-storm event! Rather, you look broader to event frequency and intensity and impacting conditions on either/both.

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Member Waldo's kin

take it to a thread... bring it! Sure you can. I trust your 'brother-in-like-arms' MLW member Shady will have his C&P prowess at the ready! :lol:

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Argus · May 5, 2016

Agreed, and what the hell is with the Army and the Air Force needing two days to get into gear?

What are they going to do anyway? The air force, so far as I'm aware, has no water bombers, and the army has no fire engines.

Boges · May 5, 2016

do you feel emboldened enough to take this to a related thread and support your claim that there are no causal links between forest fires proper and GW/AGW/CC?

How about you provide proof that this specific fire was out of the ordinary compared to other fires except for the location and the wind?

a narrow focus on landfall does not speak to either the intensity or frequency of hurricanes... oceans are... "vast" - go figure! This mealy-mouthed "weather vs. climate" denier fall-back is so convenient for you - yes? And yes, no thinking/knowledgeable person should use the same fall-back if some denier points to a huuuge snow-storm event! Rather, you look broader to event frequency and intensity and impacting conditions on either/both.

Actually weather v climate is often used to denounce people who point out colder than normal weather or even seasonal weather. The spring in Ontario is pretty damn cool this year. WEATHER V CLIMATE!

take it to a thread... bring it! Sure you can. I trust your 'brother-in-like-arms' MLW member Shady will have his C&P prowess at the ready!

I think thou dost protest too much.

waldo · May 5, 2016

I think thou dost protest too much.

don't backpedal now! Be loud and proud of the cowardly attacks you threw at me. I didn't expect you to take up the challenge and bring this to an appropriate thread... you sir, you are "all hat and no cattle"! :lol:

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Boges · May 5, 2016

don't backpedal now! Be loud and proud of the cowardly attacks you threw at me. I didn't expect you to take up the challenge and bring this to an appropriate thread... you sir, you are "all hat and no cattle"!

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Yes! I was serious that dude was your actually related to you and not just dropped a similar narrative about climate change being the culprit of this exact fire.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/elizabeth-may-fort-mcmurray-climate-change-1.3566126

Even Lizzie May has been urged to come off that position.

Later, in a statement sent to reporters, May said she wasn't directly tying the Fort McMurray wildfire to climate change. "No credible climate scientist would make this claim, and neither do I make this claim," she said,

waldo · May 5, 2016

Yes! I was serious that dude was your actually related to you

yes - you were quite serious in your cowardly attack. I spoke of contributory influence; I specifically stated:

it's been more than just a single 'dry spring'... coupled with the record high early May temperatures. Alberta and BC have a record number of wildfires for this time of year. Simply stated, we now have the real temperatures coming forward and not being muted/masked by El Nina events; events that have been experienced at abnormally higher rates over this past decade. Rather, this strong full-blown El Nino event is still hanging in and acting to amplify temperature and dry conditions. And... throw in related spruce/pine-beetle forest devastation (warmer winters) in related areas and viola!

on the other hand, you said: "This assumes a causal link between the fire and Climate change"... and I simply asked if you feel emboldened enough to take this to a related thread and support your claim that there are no causal links between forest fires proper and GW/AGW/CC? From that point forward, you're feverishly backpedaling - yes you are!

on edit: c'mon, show some grit, show your mettle... but make sure to speak to factors contributing to longer fire seasons and the intensity of respective fires - yes? Alberta's official wildfire season used to be designated as starting April 1st... it's now March 1st - what could it be, what could it be/

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Edited May 5, 2016 by waldo

Big Guy · May 5, 2016

Every province with trees has special forest fire fighting units. There is also an inter provincial coordinating organization whose role is to organize additional people and supplies where an emergency exists. Where were the units from BC, Saskatchewan, Manitoba an even Ontario?

If you feel that nobody screwed up in this case then you accept the fact that what happened was inevitable. I do not.

BubberMiley · May 5, 2016

If you feel that nobody screwed up in this case then you accept the fact that what happened was inevitable. I do not.

you don't have a clue what you're talking about but you sure feel certain enough to decide who's to blame. This happened in a matter of hours. It was a small fire, reasonably under control given the tinderbox conditions, but that changed quickly with the wind. There's no way to have thousands of firefighters on hand for every small fire, especially when other provinces are dealing with tinderbox conditions too.