Another Terrorist Attack in Canada

[eyeball]

Leathery finger tips help too. Unfortunately the rest of my meathooks have been cut and mangled too many times to keep up on the guitar anymore.

I probably sound better after you've had a few beers.

[Guest]

Leathery finger tips help too. Unfortunately the rest of my meathooks have been cut and mangled too many times to keep up on the guitar anymore.

I probably sound better after you've had a few beers.

Me too. I find the greatest boon to my playing has been the number of people who are willing to take the time to go on youtube and explain in minute detail how stuff is played. I have no theory, so it's been very helpful.

[SunnyWays]

Leathery finger tips help too. Unfortunately the rest of my meathooks have been cut and mangled too many times to keep up on the guitar anymore.

I probably sound better after you've had a few beers.

If you're a guitar buff, you might have heard of Tommy Emmanuel - here's a Youtube link to "Somewhere Over the Rainbow"......if you like to hear someone who's perfected his craft, you'll love this guy. He's got a number of videos out there - Sukiyaki is another neat one.....

Link:

Edited March 29, 2016 by SunnyWays

[Charles Anthony]

Guys,

What Is Going On?

[Guest]

It's Eyeball's fault, honest!

[Guest]

So I have tried several approaches to attempt to get people to relate to my position; which, is that Islam isn't jihadism BUT it is a serious problem and far, far more pressing source of extremism than any other religion. As a veteran of lefty forums (like Rabble), before coming here, I have spent far more time arguing that Islam and the culture can be blamed and criticized than I have arguing that Islam isn't the only problem. Extremism is extremism regardless of the source.

I thought I could get righties to relate to the idea that Christianity isn't to blame for Christian right extremism, despite the ugly scripture, and so goes for Islam. However, it seems that rather than apply that idea to Islam, many here would rather just repeat the fact that Jihadists do way more bad than Christian extremists do. Of course they do, but does that excuse it? Even when I point out that I agree with that fact, it seems that some members here can't get passed that idea.

Anyway, here is a more direct approach.

Islam is a religion.

Islamist is a term used to describe a person who wants to impose Islam on others.

Jihadist is a term used to describe a person who wants to use force to achieve Islamist goals.

If you think all or most Muslims are Islamists/Jihadists then you are ignorant or an a-hole or both.

If you think Islam or the culture of majority Muslim nations cannot be criticized then your are ignorant or an a-hole or both.

Western nations have secular laws that largely protect us from the extremism of religionists. However those protections are currently under attack by the right and waffling, politically correct, relativist lefties are partly to blame for the advance of the Christianists. If you're unwilling to acknowledge the problems presented by Islamism then you just give ammunition to fascist a-holes and brain dead Christianists. Conversely, if you're an Us vs Them, all Muslims are Islamists, righty moron then you just help the Trump and Cruz types recruit more followers for ISIS.

Just as there is a difference between culture and religion for Christians, imagine a southern vs northeaster Christian, the same distinction exists for Muslims.

[Guest]

So I have tried several approaches to attempt to get people to relate to my position; which, is that Islam isn't jihadism BUT it is a serious problem and far, far more pressing source of extremism than any other religion. As a veteran of lefty forums (like Rabble), before coming here, I have spent far more time arguing that Islam and the culture can be blamed and criticized than I have arguing that Islam isn't the only problem. Extremism is extremism regardless of the source.

I thought I could get righties to relate to the idea that Christianity isn't to blame for Christian right extremism, despite the ugly scripture, and so goes for Islam. However, it seems that rather than apply that idea to Islam, many here would rather just repeat the fact that Jihadists do way more bad than Christian extremists do. Of course they do, but does that excuse it? Even when I point out that I agree with that fact, it seems that some members here can't get passed that idea.

Anyway, here is a more direct approach.

Islam is a religion.

Islamist is a term used to describe a person who wants to impose Islam on others.

Jihadist is a term used to describe a person who wants to use force to achieve Islamist goals.

If you think all or most Muslims are Islamists/Jihadists then you are ignorant or an a-hole or both.

If you think Islam or the culture of majority Muslim nations cannot be criticized then your are ignorant or an a-hole or both.

Western nations have secular laws that largely protect us from the extremism of religionists. However those protections are currently under attack by the right and waffling, politically correct, relativist lefties are partly to blame for the advance of the Christianists. If you're unwilling to acknowledge the problems presented by Islamism then you just give ammunition to fascist a-holes and brain dead Christianists. Conversely, if you're an Us vs Them, all Muslims are Islamists, righty moron then you just help the Trump and Cruz types recruit more followers for ISIS.

Just as there is a difference between culture and religion for Christians, imagine a southern vs northeaster Christian, the same distinction exists for Muslims.

You can't blame Islam or Christianity any more than you can say either is a "religion of peace ". All that matters is the interpretation put on the tenets and the dogma by humans. Historically one can find many instances of the horrific done in the name of both, and other religions, but currently Muslims have no serious challengers. Neither in the murderous practice of jihad towards the goal of spreading Islam (one particular version, usually more at the expense of other versions than at the expense of infidels) throughout the world, nor the practice of maintaining its harsh and inflexible rule in the many countries where it forms the basis for the law.

To me, both are primitive and barbaric, and I am constantly at a loss as to why it is not okay, or even actively encouraged, to say so.

Edited March 30, 2016 by bcsapper

[Guest]

To me, both are primitive and barbaric, and I am constantly at a loss as to why it is not okay, or even actively encouraged, to say so.

Agreed. We need to actively call out Islamists and Jihadists. Islamic extremists are not the fault of the west and must be countered by the world. Especially, liberal Muslim academics who reside in safer parts of the world.The Reza Aslans and Glenn Greenwald types of the world need to be bitch-slapped into silence or submission. We need to also actively call out those whow equate all Muslims to Islamists and Jihadists. The Trump and Cruz-like ignorant, racist, fools are fuel to the recruitment efforts of the worst of the worst.

Since we're not going to magically make the religious rational, or bomb secular, liberal values into people, what can we do about Islamists? I happen to think reform makes sense, but how do we achieve that?

On the western front we are seeing the rise of Christianists and fascists. Even if they are not yet in the same stratosphere as the Islamists it is important to squash the extremists before they gain momentum. We have a stable, peaceful (mostly) culture that should be preserved from the advance of the right.

Edited March 30, 2016 by Guest

[Guest]

Agreed. We need to actively call out Islamists and Jihadists. Islamic extremists are not the fault of the west and must be countered by the world. Especially, liberal Muslim academics who reside in safer parts of the world.The Reza Aslans and Glenn Greenwald types of the world need to be bitch-slapped into silence or submission. We need to also actively call out those whow equate all Muslims to Islamists and Jihadists. The Trump and Cruz-like ignorant, racist, fools are fuel to the recruitment efforts of the worst of the worst.

Since we're not going to magically make the religious rational, or bomb secular, liberal values into people, what can we do about Islamists? I happen to think reform makes sense, but how do we achieve that?

On the western front we are seeing the rise of Christianists and fascists. Even if they are not yet in the same stratosphere as the Islamists it is important to squash the extremists before they gain momentum. We have a stable, peaceful (mostly) culture that should be preserved from the advance of the right.

I agree that it would be a good idea, and helpful, for Muslims to speak out, but I've always been of the opinion that they have no obligation to. It is also getting increasingly difficult, for any that do want to speak out, to do so from a safe place. I applaud the courage of those who do.

I think the rise of right wing extremists will continue, in response to western liberal governments reluctance to combat the problem of Islamic extremism on their own soil. It's one thing to send bombers to foreign lands. It's another to shut down radical mosques in your own capital, especially when the lines are a little blurry. There is a sometimes tragic reluctance on the part of some western governments to offend, or be seen to offend.

I don't think we've reached the worst yet.

[bush_cheney2004]

....On the western front we are seeing the rise of Christianists and fascists. Even if they are not yet in the same stratosphere as the Islamists it is important to squash the extremists before they gain momentum.

Interesting choice of words...."squash" the Christian "extremists" who are exercising their constitutional rights. Probably not going to work. Better get a better plan.

[Guest]

I agree that it would be a good idea, and helpful, for Muslims to speak out, but I've always been of the opinion that they have no obligation to. It is also getting increasingly difficult, for any that do want to speak out, to do so from a safe place. I applaud the courage of those who do.

Of course, individuals are under no obligation to risk their lives. As incredibly brave as it is for those like Ayaan Hirsi Ali or to a lesser extent those like Sam Harris who are willing to challenge both oppressive cultural and religious practices as well as harmful relativists, we need more liberal Muslims like Maajid Nawaz to join the fight. Ayaan is incredible and faces endless death threats for combating Islamism, but she (along with Harris) is now an atheist. Though it would be great to see Muslims leaving religion behind at the same rate as Christians are becoming non-believers, but it just isn't going to happen fast enough to make a meaningful difference. Maajid is a liberal Muslim, with balls of steel, willing to put his life on the line to fight Islamism from the inside; which, I think can achieve more good, more quickly. The rest of us non-Muslims can do our part by educating the regressive lefty relativists and right wing bigots who paint all Muslims as Islamists or Jihadists.

I think the rise of right wing extremists will continue, in response to western liberal governments reluctance to combat the problem of Islamic extremism on their own soil. It's one thing to send bombers to foreign lands. It's another to shut down radical mosques in your own capital, especially when the lines are a little blurry. There is a sometimes tragic reluctance on the part of some western governments to offend, or be seen to offend.

I don't think we've reached the worst yet.

Very true. For example, someone like Clinton, who doesn't want to offend or appear anything like the despicable racists vying for the Republican ticket, runs the risk of giving ISIS a vote in the US election. By not calling out Islamism and Jidhadists she runs the risk of feeding the Republican fascist movement every time an attack occurs around the world.

[Argus]

I thought I could get righties to relate to the idea that Christianity isn't to blame for Christian right extremism, despite the ugly scripture, and so goes for Islam.

In order to get me to agree that Islam is not responsible you have to first define what Islam is. One of the problems with Islam is there is no central hierarchy or authority. Islam is whatever the people make of it, however they choose to read its texts and tenets. The same goes for Christianity, of course, but Christians have always had central authorities, be it the Pope or the Archbishop of Canterbury or various synods.

Given Islam is most dominant in lands and cultures which are culturally retrograde it has been imbued with the flavour of those cultures over the centuries. It is also stuck in a time warp, its last interpretation having been declared perfect and sacred for all time. But even this centuries old interpretation, somewhat brutish and barbaric by modern sensibilities, can be read in whole or in part depending on what you want. Which leaves extremists free to interpret it however they want.

But what is an extremist in terms of these cultures and this religion? All of these cultures are more violent than ours, to begin with. And Islam is open to justifying more violence than the bible given its lack of central authority and given that ,unlike the bible, it contains a brutal legal code, many of which have laws calling for death and dismemberment for what we would consider minor offenses (or what we would not consider offenses at all, like deciding to change your religion). The bible also contains nothing to compare with the many calls for jihad against unbelievers as we find in the Koran.

In the end, we can just the religion's impact only by the societies which live by it. And all of those societies are autocratic, with harsh laws on behavior, and a violent response to anyone who questions Islam. Thus it is small wonder there are so very many individuals and groups who seek to fulfill the will of Allah as they see it written in the Islamic texts, by forcing non-believers to believe as they do, or killing them.

Just as there is a difference between culture and religion for Christians, imagine a southern vs northeaster Christian, the same distinction exists for Muslims.

If a religion contains a code of legal conduct and a society is ruled by that code, is that society not a reflection of Islam? If you read the PEW surveys on Muslim attitudes you don't find that widely separated Muslims have wildly different cultural views on social matters which are taught in the Koran. You don't find women being treated equally, or Jews being admired, whether you are in Egypt or Malaysia. You find large numbers of people, majorities, supporting death to blasphemers Apostasy from Asia to Africa to the Middle east.

And you find terrorism, terrorism by those who say they are spreading the word of Islam, in Asia, in the Middle East, in Africa, in Europe, in America.

Edited March 30, 2016 by Argus

[eyeball]

So I have tried several approaches to attempt to get people to relate to my position; which, is that Islam isn't jihadism BUT it is a serious problem and far, far more pressing source of extremism than any other religion. As a veteran of lefty forums (like Rabble), before coming here, I have spent far more time arguing that Islam and the culture can be blamed and criticized than I have arguing that Islam isn't the only problem.

I thought I could get righties to relate to the idea that Christianity isn't to blame for Christian right extremism, despite the ugly scripture, and so goes for Islam.

Western nations have secular laws that largely protect us from the extremism of religionists. However those protections are currently under attack by the right and waffling, politically correct, relativist lefties are partly to blame for the advance of the Christianists. If you're unwilling to acknowledge the problems presented by Islamism then you just give ammunition to fascist a-holes and brain dead Christianists. Conversely, if you're an Us vs Them, all Muslims are Islamists, righty moron then you just help the Trump and Cruz types recruit more followers for ISIS.

You've been wasting your time because religion's got bugger all to do with anything.

The problem with the left is that its too soft on the right and its denial/defence of western geopolitical machinations around control of oil and profits from it. The problem with the right is the hard-boiled conservatism that's seized it - an extreme way of viewing the world that's as vile and dangerous as any jihadis.

Edited March 31, 2016 by eyeball

[Army Guy]

So I have tried several approaches to attempt to get people to relate to my position; which, is that Islam isn't jihadism BUT it is a serious problem and far, far more pressing source of extremism than any other religion. As a veteran of lefty forums (like Rabble), before coming here, I have spent far more time arguing that Islam and the culture can be blamed and criticized than I have arguing that Islam isn't the only problem. Extremism is extremism regardless of the source.

I think everyone here will agree that not all Muslims can be painted with the same brush, where we disagree is just how large of the portion of the Muslim population fit into your groups, by it the Islamist or jihadist groups . I also think your 100% on point by pointing out Islam is not the only source of extremism....

I thought I could get righties to relate to the idea that Christianity isn't to blame for Christian right extremism, despite the ugly scripture, and so goes for Islam. However, it seems that rather than apply that idea to Islam, many here would rather just repeat the fact that Jihadists do way more bad than Christian extremists do. Of course they do, but does that excuse it? Even when I point out that I agree with that fact, it seems that some members here can't get passed that idea.

So we don't blame the religions despite it's ugly scripture, as both Christian and Islam have some really ugly scriptures of recordings of times when history was ugly....But despite all of that, the majority of Christians have moved on today,,,,,from the controls religions once played in our lives....to the point we have a large portion of the population that have given up religion all together.....Can we say the same for Islam ?....not really....doing so might even put your life at risk.

So who can we blame, can we blame those that interrupt those ugly scriptures to fit their own needs, to suit they're agendas....

For the most part Christians lives are not all that effected or controlled by religion at least not to the point it controls every aspect of their lives.........

while Islam forms every thing in a Muslims life, it is incorporated into laws, government, education, and even their cultures.....So much that what we think is an extreme act such as stoning a women in public is normal behavior, as is cutting off a thief's hands for stealing....And then we are told well it is an extreme act but they are not extremists for that .....things must get a lot worse....to be called extremists they must use force Islam upon us with violence directed at us....

You are right about one thing Islam threat is real...

If you think all or most Muslims are Islamists/Jihadists then you are ignorant or an a-hole or both.

If you think Islam or the culture of majority Muslim nations cannot be criticized then your are ignorant or an a-hole or both.

One would have to ask are they Islamist or Jihadist on their own accord, or are they forced to act this way through governments , laws, education etc etc...and once removed from that environment they can be who they want to be....peaceful.....

The last question would depend on who you are or where you are, and what your criticizing .....here in the west we are free to use our freedoms with very little restrictions.....but you can not say that in All Muslim based countries....Those EX Muslims who have criticized Islam have done so after they have been granted immunity such as US citizenship.....But this practice is not recommended if you where a ordinary citizen of any Muslim country. As there is consequences that are clearly laid out by their governments , in their laws, religions....etc etc

Western nations have secular laws that largely protect us from the extremism of religionists. However those protections are currently under attack by the right and waffling, politically correct, relativist lefties are partly to blame for the advance of the Christianists. If you're unwilling to acknowledge the problems presented by Islamism then you just give ammunition to fascist a-holes and brain dead Christianists. Conversely, if you're an Us vs Them, all Muslims are Islamists, righty moron then you just help the Trump and Cruz types recruit more followers for ISIS

.

We do have laws that protect us from religious extremism, but they are being challenged by both sides, eroded by both sides....Islamist and Christians....

and has Islamist continue to spread and grow so will Christians views on Islam, lines have already been drawn in the sand.....and for the average joe well it is just one more thing to be afraid of.....What is needed is good leadership, on both sides.....but when the average joe looks at the both sides there is no real hopefuls is there....which increase the fear or concern....

[jacee]

You know, if they surrounded that crowd and then opened fire until there wasn't one left alive, Pakistan would make huge strides to eliminating its islamism problem.

You really don't have much to add here do you?

Can you even speculate how creating martyrs just might create more terror?

.

[Argus]

You really don't have much to add here do you?

Can you even speculate how creating martyrs just might create more terror?

.

I was kidding. Wiping out 25,000 fanatics would be a drop in the bucket in Pakistan. Now if you could wipe out several million fanatics you'd be onto something.

Terrorism doesn't come from martyrs, it comes from the Wahhabi version of Islam being taught in Pakistani schools paid for by the Saudis.

Why do you people on the left continue to believe that it's our behaviour which sparks terrorism? Have you seen anything like a comparable level of terrorism coming from all the groups who have actually been slaughtered around the world? No, it comes mainly from Muslims, and from the Wahhabi sect.

Edited April 1, 2016 by Argus

[eyeball]

Why do you people on the left continue to believe that it's our behaviour which sparks terrorism?

Sparked you mean, past tense - the place burst into flames decades ago and all we've been doing since is pour gasoline on them.

[WestCanMan]

It is mainly liberal Muslims themselves who are working towards reforming the culture in their various nations though groups like Khudi. This has nothing to do with their religion. There are already progressive Muslim majority countries. They're not all Saudi Arabia, which the West unfortunately legitimizes with ally status due to our oil dependency.

There is no need to blame Islam, just as reforming brutal Christianity in the west didn't involve telling Christians they were doing it all wrong. The Biblical scriptures calling for the murder of non-believers still exist, yet when western culture embraced democracy and secular liberal values, rights and freedoms, the dictatorial and extreme power of the church faded.

Christianity is evolving, it has been for centuries. All the main groups coming out of it share less hostile beliefs than those in the old testament. Maybe that's due to the fact their spiritual leader is reputed to have done good things when he walked the earth.

Islam isn't evolving, and the splinter groups are almost always more depraved than the bulk of society. Furthermore, all the muslim countries that attempt moderation inevitably lapse back into old-world immorality. Maybe that's due to the fact that their spiritual leader reputedly, and unapologetically tended to do things like marry young children, and take slaves and preside over actions like the genocide of the Banu Qurayza when he walked the earth. Can a man really call a guy like that a prophet and then come to the conclusion that committing similar acts is immoral or evil? That was a rhetorical question, I know that there isn't a hope in hell you will answer that.

When Khudi tackles the sensitive issue of whether or not beheading whole towns was actually bad, and their collective peer pressure is enough to force radicalism into the shadows, I will believe that Islam has found a cure for the demented wild dog factions of Islam. The world is clearly not seeing that right now, is it slick?

Look at the view from 20,000 feet, not the view from "my next-door neighbour has never tried to commit genocide, they are probably all the same". Specific ares of moderation are nice and all, but clearly the moderates aren't nearly strong enough to clean up Islam's back yard. They seem to just run and look the other way, camouflaging the radicals as they spread out.

Edited April 2, 2016 by WestCanMan

[WestCanMan]

This has been my point for some time. Added to this the stats I've seen show that immigrants from that part of the world are among the worst economic performers in Canada - Europeans and Americans being the best - and I am baffled why this isn't basic common sense.

I live in an area that's got an enormous indo-Canadian population. There have been a lot of Chinese coming here in recent months as well. To be certain there will be a few bad apples in every bunch, just like there were in my high school, but the only real barriers I ever see are language-related. I see in everyone the desire to contribute to society and I see more than just "tolerance" here. I see acceptance and even people celebrating along with other cultures. Diwali, Christmas, Chinese new year... I doubt there's a stat out there that says Asians don't do well economically here. Their real estate purchases are the backbone of the BC economy.

I don't think it's impossible for our liberal society here to eventually fail. I think we have our choice of accepting decent people from all over the world. I don't know why we would scrape the bottom of the barrel. The absolute last people that we want to bring in here are terrorists or sympathizers and there's absolutely no doubt we are getting a lot of sympathizers at the very least.

[WestCanMan]

"God told me do it" is usually seen to indicate mental illness, not Christian terrorism.

How is "Allah told me to do it" any different?

.

When Christians take slaves, marry young children or behead prisoners of war they are not emulating Jesus Christ.

When Muslims take slaves, marry young children or behead prisoners of war they are following the exact path of Mohammed. You could make a strong argument that followers of ISIS are "more Muslim" than the moderates.

[WestCanMan]

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/charleston-church-shooting/kkk-white-supremacists-among-19-south-carolina-hate-groups-splc-n377516

Why are KKK not charged under anti-terror laws?

.

If they commit acts of terrorism do you think that they won't be?

[jacee]

If they commit acts of terrorism do you think that they won't be?

They haven't been:

In 2015, after white supremacist Dylann Roof shot and killed nine African-Americans at a well-known black church in Charleston, South Carolina, the Loyal White Knights of the Ku Klux Klan distributed Klan propaganda ... readers were encouraged to ring a hotline that saluted Roof, which said, We in the Loyal White Knights would like to say hail victory to Dylann S. Roof who decided to do what the bible told him

- See more at: http://www.counterextremism.com/threat/ku-klux-klan#sthash.HzPlNQWY.dpuf

.

Edited April 2, 2016 by jacee

[WestCanMan]

Here's some more of those blasted conservatives...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/islamist-protesters-call-for-sharia-in-pakistan-after-salman-taseer-blasphemy-row-a6956896.html

They have also denounced draft legislation in Punjab outlawing violence against women.

Did anyone tell Rona Ambrose about this?

I'm not entirely sure what your point is here.

Yes, the gov't there drafted legislation against violence towards women, but the article clearly shows that the population is against it. Burning cars, etc?

You see that a man was murdered for criticizing the anti-blasphemy laws, and when his murderer was executed, the widespread political will at the grassroots level is that the murderer shouldn't have been executed?

This article clearly portrays moderate muslims have good reason to live in fear there. I'm not sure how you can see that any other way.

[Guest]

I'm not entirely sure what your point is here.

Yes, the gov't there drafted legislation against violence towards women, but the article clearly shows that the population is against it. Burning cars, etc?

You see that a man was murdered for criticizing the anti-blasphemy laws, and when his murderer was executed, the widespread political will at the grassroots level is that the murderer shouldn't have been executed?

This article clearly portrays moderate muslims have good reason to live in fear there. I'm not sure how you can see that any other way.

I don't.

The post was in response to a series that started with one poster intimating how religion is not the problem, conservatism is, and included my response, other than this flippant one, that conservative views vary widely. Hence the Rona Ambrose question there.

You saw the word "denounced" in the bold quote?

Edited April 2, 2016 by bcsapper

[jacee]

I'm not entirely sure what your point is here.

Yes, the gov't there drafted legislation against violence towards women, but the article clearly shows that the population is against it. Burning cars, etc?

Some of the population.

You see that a man was murdered for criticizing the anti-blasphemy laws, and when his murderer was executed, the widespread political will at the grassroots level is that the murderer shouldn't have been executed?

Some.

This article clearly portrays moderate muslims have good reason to live in fear there. I'm not sure how you can see that any other way.

You could stop lumping them all together, and acknowledge extremism.

.

Edited April 2, 2016 by jacee