Still Going to Buy the F-35, Really?

[?Impact]

why did the us navy retire it's older F-18's instead of upgrading them to Super hornets, just a question to ponder ?

I thought the navy replaced the F-14's with SuperHornets.

The F-14 Tomcat was a Grumman aircraft, made famous in TopGun movie. The SuperHornet is a McDonnell Douglas aircraft (now Boeing). I will never forget the opportunity I had in the early 90's to visit what was then US Naval base Miramar (aka Fightertown USA), an seeing the F-14 up close and hearing them takeoff.

[Army Guy]

Sorry for the confusion, The F-18 E/F were purchased to replace the F-14's....However my point was that the US navy already had plenty of older F-18 in inventory, why did they not simply "upgrade" them to the new E/F standard, because they could not....They are two different aircraft.

[Derek 2.0]

Not the latest (4.5) generation of F-16 - the Super Viper

The "Super Viper" is not a new aircraft, like the Super Hornet, merely an upgraded legacy type......with the F-16, for an interim purchase, we could purchase from the Americans F-16s parked in the desert and zero time the airframes, purchase new engines and upgrade the avionics to "Super Viper" for a fraction of the of the cost of purchasing new aircraft.

I wonder what body is capable of amending laws?

The Australians don't amend Canadian laws.........that was your point bringing up the RAAF purchase no?

[Smallc]

The Super Hornet isn't anything close to an upgraded hornet.

The government (parliament specifically) amends laws. In this case, none need to be amended. We're going to be down to less than 65 Hornets - the last of which must be retired in about 8 years. The F-35 will not be operationally ready for 5-6 years. Canada will only consider an American fighter. Canada was never considering the Super Viper. It's an easy justification, like I said before.

[Derek 2.0]

it's always good to read an internet lawyer at his/her best - well done! Filling the described gap is significant, particularly given the over-ongoing, ever-continuing, ever-growing F-35 delays and extensions to so-called "production"; notwithstanding actual mega-problems with the F-35. Given the gap and the failed F-35, I would think there grounds on that basis to speak of public-interest and degrees of urgency... balanced against spending say another couple of billion to further extend the Hornets life even more. Alternatively, and somewhat related, aligning with an upgrade path that also speaks to Boeing being in a position to respond at reasonable comparative cost, that sure reads like a manufacturer ready to step right in. If you're going to go all internet lawyer, go all the way - Here try this:

of course, never discount a 'Harper ploy'! You know, set requirements such that no other option (than the Super Hornet) could meet them. Harper tried/true, right?

.

What gap? Just over a month ago, before the Commons defense committee, the head of the RCAF stated the end of our Hornets useful life is 2025 and that there would be no issue replacing them if me made a selection within five years time....

.......as to your link, you're putting the cart before the horse....said link speaks to an already justified sole source contract......the Government has yet to justify a sole source contract to Boeing......even Alan Williams, your go to Liberal critic of the F-35, is calling this a "horrific start for this government", saying this is a bad deal for not only the forces (that will have to maintain two different fighter fleets at a greater cost), but a bad deal for Canadian taxpayers......

When the head honcho of the RCAF says we don't need an interim type, and the former Liberal head of military procurement calls this horrific, what is the justification for a sole sourced purchase by the Trudeau government?

[Derek 2.0]

Time running out to upgrade Canada’s aging CF-18 jets

.

Says the Liberal government..........but not the head of the RCAF, that has stated to the Commons the end of service for our current Hornets is 2025.

[Derek 2.0]

I thought the navy replaced the F-14's with SuperHornets.

They first replaced the A-6 with the Super Hornet as an interim type after the A-12 was cancelled........In the case of both the A-6E and F-14D, and more so the proposed "Super Intruder" and "Super Tomcat" upgrades and new production aircraft, the Super Hornet is a significant downgrade.....even with the introduction of the Super Hornet into the fleet, groups like "Top Gun" (now in Nevada) and even the Blue Angels opted to retain the legacy Hornet citing its greater maneuverability over the piggish Super Hornet.

[Derek 2.0]

The Super Hornet isn't anything close to an upgraded hornet.

I know, its a different aircraft in nearly all but name.

The government (parliament specifically) amends laws. In this case, none need to be amended. We're going to be down to less than 65 Hornets - the last of which must be retired in about 8 years. The F-35 will not be operationally ready for 5-6 years. Canada will only consider an American fighter. Canada was never considering the Super Viper. It's an easy justification, like I said before.

Canada was never considering an interim aircraft........an aircraft the head of the RCAF says we don't need.

If its an "easy justification", why is Alan Williams calling it a horrific move on the part of the Government?

[poochy]

"The interim solution avoids the embarrassing prospect of the F-35 winning an open competition. But the purchase of Canada’s first line of defence should not be predicated upon the Liberal party’s electoral prospects."

http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/john-ivison-by-sole-sourcing-super-hornets-liberals-now-look-identical-to-tories-on-fighter-jets-file

Commentary not invented by liberal liars.

[Smallc]

Says the Liberal government..........but not the head of the RCAF, that has stated to the Commons the end of service for our current Hornets is 2025.

That's right - the absolute end for the last of the 65 upgraded aircraft that are still flying by then.

[Derek 2.0]

That's right - the absolute end for the last of the 65 upgraded aircraft that are still flying by then.

Which refutes the Liberal's claim that we need an interim type, so badly in fact, that they have to sole source the contract.

When a former (Liberal) ADM of Material calls this a horrific move on the part of the Trudeau government, and the head of the RCAF states under oath that we don't need to even select a new aircraft within the next five years, they clearly have no leg to stand on.........

[Smallc]

So, when we're down to a handful of usable F-18s in 2023, and we still don't have a usable replacement, you think everything will be just fine?

It's clear we need to introduce a new type now so that it can reach full capability before the bulk of the retirements start to happen.

[overthere]

Is there an estimate on how much borrowed cash the purely politicial decision to buy unnecessary aircraft that nobody wants will cost us? Just round it to the nearest $5 billion or so. Ta.

[overthere]

So, when we're down to a handful of usable F-18s in 2023, and we still don't have a usable replacement, you think everything will be just fine?

It's clear we need to introduce a new type now so that it can reach full capability before the bulk of the retirements start to happen.

Since we are assured by non politicians that the F-18s will be OK until 2025......What prevents us from simply going through an open procurement process and replacing them with an aircraft that we want and need? Oh right, Trudeau has promised not to buy the frontrunner for that replacement - the F35.

Is there any reason to buy the Superhornets, other than to fulfill a foolhardy election promise?

[Derek 2.0]

So, when we're down to a handful of usable F-18s in 2023, and we still don't have a usable replacement, you think everything will be just fine?

It's clear we need to introduce a new type now so that it can reach full capability before the bulk of the retirements start to happen.

You know something the head of the RCAF doesn't? He has stated quite clearly, we have no need to even select a replacement until ~2021, and the end of our current hornets useful will be 2025.

So yes, I think everything will be fine, assuming an aircraft is selected then procured prior to 2021........per the statement by the head of the RCAF.

[Derek 2.0]

Is there any reason to buy the Superhornets, other than to fulfill a foolhardy election promise?

No, other then the fact that the Super Hornet production will shut down soon..........regardless, per the MND's spokeswomen, the government has no intention (now?) to sole source Super Hornets.........

I think, as I said earlier (and was mocked by the Trudeau cheerleaders), and is now being confirmed by former (Liberal) ADM of material (the guy that bought stuff for the military) Alan Williams:

"There is no legal justification to sole-source this," said Williams, who noted that the use of the national security criteria would not apply.

The move would possibly open the door to a legal — or even trade — challenge by competitors, he said.

"I'm not sure companies want to take the government to court on this kind of thing, but, you know, there is no legal justification for doing this," he said.

So we have reports of a sole source bid and Canada late paying its dues for the F-35 program.........this gets leaked and now the MND's spokesperson goes on record as stating there is no intention of sole sourcing Super Hornets and that Canada will continue to pay towards the F-35 program.....

Can anyone say trial balloon........that went over like a Led Zeppelin, for the Trudeau populace party

[PIK]

Sad really sad.

[Smallc]

The Super Hornet production factory will actually now stay open well into the next decade, per the Boring SLAP announcement.

[Smallc]

You know something the head of the RCAF doesn't? He has stated quite clearly, we have no need to even select a replacement until ~2021, and the end of our current hornets useful will be 2025.

So yes, I think everything will be fine, assuming an aircraft is selected then procured prior to 2021........per the statement by the head of the RCAF.

Do you have the statement?

[Army Guy]

So, when we're down to a handful of usable F-18s in 2023, and we still don't have a usable replacement, you think everything will be just fine?

It's clear we need to introduce a new type now so that it can reach full capability before the bulk of the retirements start to happen.

Where is the Liberals getting their information from, Can't be DND, when as derek stated they just informed the public last month all our F-18 are good until 2025.

How is an interim purchase of aircraft going to help the RCAF right now, If our current fleet is good to 2025, as DND says it is.....Sounds like a massive diversion...a half ass attempt at solving a major military issue that has been a thorn in the sides of many government parties...If we have the time and energy to make an interim purchase why not push for the full meal deal.....run the competition and make a commitment.....

[Smallc]

Where is the Liberals getting their information from, Can't be DND, when as derek stated they just informed the public last month all our F-18 are good until 2025.

Only if the entire fleet receives the upgrades (and he didn't say the entire fleet would be good until then - we're already going from 80 to 65). That contract has not been awarded yet and it's not clear how much economic sense it makes.

[Smallc]

BTW, the government has missed its payment to the F-35 program membership office.

[overthere]

Only if the entire fleet receives the upgrades (and he didn't say the entire fleet would be good until then - we're already going from 80 to 65). That contract has not been awarded yet and it's not clear how much economic sense it makes.

Yet in your mind it does make sense to purchase an aircraft new to DND, one that will require training air and ground crews on a second, then a third brand whenever the govt gathers the balls to simply buy the next generation? Why exactly are we buying an aircraft that is nearly at the end of its service life, to replace an aircraft also at the end of is service life?

You won't say it, so I will: to get Trudeau out of the embarassment he personally created by a foolish, uninformed promise during the election. By buying SuperHornets, he can put off the decision to buy f-35s until a few weeks after the 2019 election. You can be certain that the election campaign of 2019 will have far fewer than 200+ promises. It should also feature fewer voters believing the whoppers he does make.

Clumsy. Stupid. Expensive. And it will backfire on him.

[overthere]

BTW, the government has missed its payment to the F-35 program membership office.

Time to scamper down to the credit union and borrow a few billion.

[Army Guy]

Below is a DND statement defining the life extension programs....

forces.gc.ca/en/about-reports-pubs/next-gen-fighter-cf18-estimated-life-expectancy.page

Below is media reports detailing the approval of the ELE program taking the current fleet to 2025.....

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/national/defence-watch/cf-18-aircraft-extension-to-2025-will-mean-extra-maintenance-costs-for-rcaf

Another source in case you did not like the other one.

www.cbc.ca/news/politics/extending-cf-18-lifespan-to-cost-about-400-million-report-1.2869532