Still Going to Buy the F-35, Really?

[Wilber]

Is putting Canadians to work, whilst maintaining the capacity to build and repair our own ships, not important?

Not if the military gets much less for the amount of money government allows them in a budget.

[Smallc]

Not if the military gets much less for the amount of money government allows them in a budget.

I've already explained how offshoring the construction will probably cost us more in the end. Besides, it seems the Liberals are willing to spend the required money, given that they've injected $65M additional dollars into the OOSV and JSS projects just this week.

[Wilber]

I've already explained how offshoring the construction will probably cost us more in the end. Besides, it seems the Liberals are willing to spend the required money, given that they've injected $65M additional dollars into the OOSV and JSS projects just this week.

Then why not hold an open competition for the new ships, just like the Liberals were demanding for fighters.

[Smallc]

Then why not hold an open competition for the new ships, just like the Liberals were demanding for fighters.

We already held the competition for the shipyards and the designs for the A/OPS, OFSV, OOSV, JSS, and Diefenbaker.

Edited March 16, 2016 by Smallc

[Wilber]

Did they?

http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/john-ivison-26b-shock-canadas-largest-ever-defence-procurement-handed-off-in-sole-source-contract

Don't get me wrong, I would love to see us producing our own world class stuff but the military's requirements must come before regional pork barreling.

[Smallc]

Did they?

http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/john-ivison-26b-shock-canadas-largest-ever-defence-procurement-handed-off-in-sole-source-contract

Irving was always going to build the ships. The previous government obviously felt they were doing a good job as prime contractor for the A/OPS. They must have wanted to continue that arrangement for the CSC. The design will be an open competition between existing warship designs.

[dre]

Then why not hold an open competition for the new ships, just like the Liberals were demanding for fighters.

That's fine but you have to cost everything not just the sticker price. You need to account for money that gets injected into our economy by creating a bunch of good jobs if we build here VS damage to our economy from capital flight if we buy.

[eyeball]

Is putting Canadians to work, whilst maintaining the capacity to build and repair our own ships, not important?

It doesn't seem like it in light of how much we've allowed the rest of our industrial base be hollowed out.

Why we shouldn't treat our military procurement the same way we treat our procurement of any other consumer good i.e. as cheaply as possible? All of our reasons for maintaining or not maintaining an industrial base in Canada should be as applicable.

At this point we should be thinking of how to knock down the cost of labour in our military. We need soldiers who are willing to work for less for the same reason Tim Hortons needs cheap labour.

Edited March 16, 2016 by eyeball

[Smallc]

The F-35 may not be ready for combat until 2022...and that's so far:

http://www.businessinsider.com/f-35-may-not-be-suitable-for-combat-before-2022-2016-3

[segnosaur]

The F-35 may not be ready for combat until 2022...and that's so far:

http://www.businessinsider.com/f-35-may-not-be-suitable-for-combat-before-2022-2016-3

A couple of points:

- Its not that surprising that the F35 won't be "fully functional" for a few more years. Its a new plane, with all new issues regarding manufacture, deployment, etc. But its also irrelevant when it comes to Canada's purchases... Even if the government actually made a decision immediately, any planes we order probably wouldn't be 1) manufactured, and 2) ready to fly in that time anyways. Buying a plane is not like buying a car off an assembly line. So by the time we would take delivery, and have our pilots fully trained, and were ready to decommission our existing planes, the F35 should be fully tested.

- Many of the delays in making it 'combat capable' involve tests with various weapons. However, the plane can still be considered functional even if not all the weapons have been tested. Haven't tested weapon X? Depending on the mission it may be possible to use alternative weapons which have been tested.

[Smallc]

I think the F-35 will be great. I'm not arguing that. It's just not ready yet. Hopefully it will be ready in 2022.

Edited March 16, 2016 by Smallc

[Army Guy]

I would have drawn a line in the sand a long time ago. And especially when it comes to public expenditures I would try to keep the money in the country if at all possible. That goes for all departments. But governments don't think long term. In the long term the countries surrendering all their productive capacity are going to be in a lot of trouble.

And I fully agree with you 100 % we should have drawn a line in the sand long ago, and instead we have pissed away that moment, and our ship building capabilities are limited to small to medium sixed ves that our current yards are capable of.

So the real question is how much are we prepared to pay our of our tax payers money to revive them.....and what will be done to keep them a vital part of our industry base.

[Smallc]

And I fully agree with you 100 % we should have drawn a line in the sand long ago, and instead we have pissed away that moment, and our ship building capabilities are limited to small to medium sixed ves that our current yards are capable of.

They may have been limited to that before, (Davie never was), but they certainly aren't now:

http://www.seaspan.com/shipyard-modernization-project

http://www.irvingshipbuilding.com/irving-shipbuilding-facilities-construction-at-halifax-shipyard-yard-plans-and-economic-impact.aspx

Both projects are now complete. We'd be stupid to let that go to waste now.

The Canadian military shipbuilding and repair industry is worth almost $1B per year - 1/4 of that from offshore work. That's before the start of the NSPS.

[Army Guy]

Is putting Canadians to work, whilst maintaining the capacity to build and repair our own ships, not important?

Are you saying we will lose the capacity to repair ships if they are not built in Canada. Besides the equipment inside a war ship is not repaired at any Canadian ship yard.....but rather at the source, in our case mostly US companies...

So in this case it boils down to a few things.....A sole source contract, a big no no....but hey we are putting Canadians to work, while we leave the air force guys scratching their heads asking how did they do that.....Another reason the entire program is vastly under funded sources are saying by as much as 50 %.....we wanted 15 warships, and they predict only 7 now....and capability is still in question.....

Building a better warship for cheaper costs, seems to make no difference here, and yet we balk at 9 bil on aircraft....maybe DND is learning something.....

Hiring Canadian workers is one of the major selling points here.....along with reviving a dead industry....Because our workers will be taxed and spend their money in Canada....has anyone figured out much wages will be paid out in say 15 years....I can't see any more than a bil....after all we are only talking about maybe a 1000 workers....The rest is paid to Irvings who put there money off shore....Not much taxes paid there...

[Smallc]

Are you saying we will lose the capacity to repair ships if they are not built in Canada. Besides the equipment inside a war ship is not repaired at any Canadian ship yard.....but rather at the source, in our case mostly US companies...

I'm talking about hull repair and equipment integration - and no, they aren't repaired at the source. If we have the equipment, source personnel come to us.

So in this case it boils down to a few things.....A sole source contract, a big no no....but hey we are putting Canadians to work, while we leave the air force guys scratching their heads asking how did they do that.....Another reason the entire program is vastly under funded sources are saying by as much as 50 %.....we wanted 15 warships, and they predict only 7 now....and capability is still in question.....

The Liberals have already injected new money into the program. Also, it's a continuous build program - we pay for ships as we need them. One gets built as soon as the other is done. If we get 7 CSC, something will have to be built right after anyway.

Building a better warship for cheaper costs, seems to make no difference here

I've already explained that it isn't cheaper, even if the sticker price is less.

Hiring Canadian workers is one of the major selling points here.....along with reviving a dead industry....Because our workers will be taxed and spend their money in Canada....has anyone figured out much wages will be paid out in say 15 years....I can't see any more than a bil....after all we are only talking about maybe a 1000 workers....The rest is paid to Irvings who put there money off shore....Not much taxes paid there...

Last I checked, companies paid tax on profit. I'm pretty sure their suppliers (34% Nova Scotian and 84% Canadian) pay taxes and have employees that pay taxes.

Besides, we're already building the ships there! Why would we stop?

Edited March 17, 2016 by Smallc

[Army Guy]

They may have been limited to that before, (Davie never was), but they certainly aren't now:

http://www.seaspan.com/shipyard-modernization-project

http://www.irvingshipbuilding.com/irving-shipbuilding-facilities-construction-at-halifax-shipyard-yard-plans-and-economic-impact.aspx

Both projects are now complete. We'd be stupid to let that go to waste now.

The Canadian military shipbuilding and repair industry is worth almost $1B per year - 1/4 of that from offshore work. That's before the start of the NSPS.

Both of these expansion projects are in direct result of the NSPS....Take a look at what these ship yards did after the last Navy contracts, Irving actually down sized and moved to Halifax, Quebec ship yards are close to being bankrupt...and yet today you expect a long term build is going to solve all this.....maybe if it takes 30 years to build 15 ships....

[Army Guy]

I'm talking about hull repair and equipment integration - and no, they aren't repaired at the source. If we have the equipment, source personnel come to us.

The Liberals have already injected new money into the program. Also, it's a continuous build program - we pay for ships as we need them. One gets built as soon as the other is done. If we get 7 CSC, something will have to be built right after anyway.

I've already explained that it isn't cheaper, even if the sticker price is less.

Last I checked, companies paid tax on profit. I'm pretty sure their suppliers (34% Nova Scotian and 84% Canadian) pay taxes and have employees that pay taxes.

Besides, we're already building the ships there! Why would we stop?

It does not matter what I say or provide, nothing is going to change your mind....Canada's ship building program has got more holes in it than a sponge....There was a documentary down on the Irving's , the taxes it pays does not even match grants it receives, Irvings pay less taxes than you or I....and most of their wealth is held off shore....Tax free...

[Smallc]

Both of these expansion projects are in direct result of the NSPS....Take a look at what these ship yards did after the last Navy contracts, Irving actually down sized and moved to Halifax, Quebec ship yards are close to being bankrupt...and yet today you expect a long term build is going to solve all this.....

The Quebec yard lost the contracts because at the time, they were bankrupt. They're currently building an interim AOR for the navy, but they won't get much beyond that. As to the upgrades being in response to the NSPS - and? They're done, why waste them?

maybe if it takes 30 years to build 15 ships....

it should take about 15 - 20 years. At that point, the Kingston class will need replacement, and will take over as the build. After it's done, the AOPS gets replaced, and so on.

Seaspan has even more work lined up. There's OFSVx3 (they're building 1 right now, and will start the second in 3 months), OOSVx1, JSSx2, Diefenbaker, 10 medium and large vessels for the navy, and then the rest of the ice breakers. They'll be busy for a long while. Lets stick to the plan.

Edited March 17, 2016 by Smallc

[Smallc]

It does not matter what I say or provide, nothing is going to change your mind....Canada's ship building program has got more holes in it than a sponge

So you work through the problems, you don't abandon the industry.

[Argus]

What if instead of buying F35s or embarking on a ridiculous mission to build our own jet fighter, we bought an existing product? If we decided that we needed to stimulate the economy as well as buy jet fighters, then we could dump the bags of money we saved into the streets.

-k

The problem is there are no equivalent existing products. Technology is all, and the only one its detractors are even trying to suggest will be okay is the super hornet. How is your 12 year old computer working? I'm betting not as well as one built next year. These fighters have to last 40 years. Do we really want to start off with technology which is 15-25 years old in them? Then try to carry that through for 40 years?

[Argus]

We've always built our own ships.

At enormous cost compared to buying them from someone else.

[Smallc]

At enormous cost compared to buying them from someone else.

I agreed with you until a short time ago. When you consider the economic opportunity cost, not so much.

[Argus]

We aren't designing our own ship this time (that's a good thing). We do still have shipyards that can build, even if they needed upgrades.

"It's been five years and the two shipyards haven't built a single ship," said Alex Vicefield, CEO of Inocea, a global shipping conglomerate that owns Quebec's Davie shipyard.

"All we hear are delays and cost overruns which are so high, they are turning the Canadian shipbuilding industry into an international embarrassment."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/davie-shipyard-boss-canada-shipbuilding-plan-bizarre-1.3494460

[Smallc]

The problem is there are no equivalent existing products.

The problem with the F-35 is that it's not a functional existing product. Maybe it will be ready by 2022 (we need it to be in Canada's case). What if it's not?

[Smallc]

"It's been five years and the two shipyards haven't built a single ship," said Alex Vicefield, CEO of Inocea, a global shipping conglomerate that owns Quebec's Davie shipyard.

The CEO of Davie is against a deal Davie lost (mostly because, at the time, they were bankrupt)? I can't believe that.

Seriously, the first ship will roll off the line in about 9 months according to Seaspan. The program was started about a decade too late, but it's the right program.