bush_cheney2004 Posted March 15, 2016 Report Posted March 15, 2016 An anti war media organization will tend to do that. Nice try. But it's not just the anti-war media.....Canada does not embrace the role of "defense contractor" to the world, despite the associated jobs and balance of trade. Lockheed Martin and Boeing routinely advertise on and sponsor U.S. sporting events without shame. Does this happen in Canada for General Dynamics or Thales ? Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Smallc Posted March 15, 2016 Report Posted March 15, 2016 But it is mostly components, not systems like ships, aircraft, missile systems etc.That's not bad but it is far from building the whole thing from the ground up. Most defence projects are a multinational effort now. Quote
Wilber Posted March 15, 2016 Report Posted March 15, 2016 Most defence projects are a multinational effort now.[ Of course they are but building complete aircraft and ships is not the part we do or are set up to do. Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 15, 2016 Report Posted March 15, 2016 Most defence projects are a multinational effort now. Ok...so which projects/programs does Canada lead ? Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Smallc Posted March 15, 2016 Report Posted March 15, 2016 (edited) Ok...so which projects/programs does Canada lead ? The LAV, as was mentioned. The Sentinel (and the potential follow on products). The Twin Otter. I'm sure there are others. Canada is generally a junior partner though, as is common for a country our size. Edited March 15, 2016 by Smallc Quote
Smallc Posted March 15, 2016 Report Posted March 15, 2016 (edited) Of course they are but building complete aircraft and ships is not the part we do or are set up to do. We can build complete ships and aircraft. Bell builds aircraft in Canada that are used by militaries around the world. Bombardier has defence projects and products. Viking Air has sold aircraft to other countries. Besides, I'm not sure what's wrong with a large industry building components. it seems like it's a grass is greener somewhere else attitude. Edited March 15, 2016 by Smallc Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 15, 2016 Report Posted March 15, 2016 The LAV, as was mentioned. Partial credit...the LAV is derived from a Swiss design (Pirahna). General Dynamics Land Systems is HQ'd in the USA (Michigan). Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Smallc Posted March 15, 2016 Report Posted March 15, 2016 Partial credit...the LAV is derived from a Swiss design (Pirahna). General Dynamics Land Systems is HQ'd in the USA (Michigan). Like I said - multinational. You asked where Canada was the lead. I took that as building most of the product. Quote
Wilber Posted March 15, 2016 Report Posted March 15, 2016 We can build complete ships and aircraft. Bell builds aircraft in Canada that are used by militaries around the world. Bombardier has defence projects and products. Viking Air has sold aircraft to other countries. Besides, I'm not sure what's wrong with a large industry building components. it seems like it's a grass is greener somewhere else attitude. None of those companies develop major systems on their own or in Canada. There is nothing wrong with building components and sub systems but it is a specialty and not the same thing. Most Western warships mount a gun built in Sweden. Arguably, CAE is the premier manufacturer of flight simulators in the world but they don't build the aircraft. Let's stick to what we are good at. Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
Smallc Posted March 15, 2016 Report Posted March 15, 2016 Let's stick to what we are good at. We've always built our own ships. Quote
Wilber Posted March 15, 2016 Report Posted March 15, 2016 We've always built our own ships. Most of the people who worked on the design and building of the Halifax class are probably retired by now. Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
Smallc Posted March 15, 2016 Report Posted March 15, 2016 Most of the people who worked on the design and building of the Halifax class are probably retired by now. We aren't designing our own ship this time (that's a good thing). We do still have shipyards that can build, even if they needed upgrades. We do still design small warships though. We recently did so for parts of the AOPS (well, that's not small) and for Ireland and New Zealand. Quote
dre Posted March 15, 2016 Report Posted March 15, 2016 None of those companies develop major systems on their own or in Canada. There is nothing wrong with building components and sub systems but it is a specialty and not the same thing. Most Western warships mount a gun built in Sweden. Arguably, CAE is the premier manufacturer of flight simulators in the world but they don't build the aircraft. Let's stick to what we are good at. Problem is that if that attitude was prevalent we would not be good at anything at all besides chopping down trees and digging holes in the ground. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Army Guy Posted March 15, 2016 Report Posted March 15, 2016 I Might buy into this whole ship building program if Irving and the others were going to actually try to and make an effort into building ships, after the navies contract is done, any type of ship, to compete on the inter national market. But history has shown us the same result over and over again...Irving and other ship yards will down size keep their R&D funds and wait once again for a governments hand out....A hand out worth bils of our tax dollars. to support an industry that died along time ago. The writing is on the wall has been for decades, so long it has faded and barely readable....The whole premise of building these ships in Canada is not to rebuild the ship building capability as that was gone long ago.... but to make jobs.... even at the cost of Ship numbers, and capabilities employed inside of them.....Does that sound right to you....And if so why is this not done with every major project across the board....in every dept across Canada.... And it comes at a time when our military needs every dollar it can get, but to sell it to Canadians it was sold as a revival of an old industry, a job creation platform..... We have seen time after time military funding diverted or canceled, put on hold for long periods of time....and when projects do finally get actioned they look nothing like the original plan....DND will smile put on a few photo ops for our political masters everyone is happy, DND just grateful they got something new.....everything is good, at least on the outside.... If tax payers really knew the true condition of our military, they'd be lined up outside of parliament wanting answers.... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Army Guy Posted March 15, 2016 Report Posted March 15, 2016 (edited) Problem is that if that attitude was prevalent we would not be good at anything at all besides chopping down trees and digging holes in the ground. The problem is not wilbers attitude, take a look around it is the times we live in, Major industry we were once renown for such things as building ships, aircraft, are all but gone....Canadian industry closed up shop and left for greener pastures....it has become more cost effective to produce in other nations.....It is staring you right in the face and you refuse to see it....it is not just ship building etc it includes everything.....leaving us with trees and mud to dig in.... So when I asked you are we drawing a line in the sand, and we are attempting to reverse all of that there was no answer...if this is the way of the future, out sourcing why even go that route, why not embrace something that has been here for years and years and use that to our advantage....Why spend bils upon bils on employing a few thousand workers in a few depressed places....when those Bils could be used more effectively such as creating jobs, our navy getting ships that work,and want, for much cheaper.... Edited March 15, 2016 by Army Guy Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Wilber Posted March 15, 2016 Report Posted March 15, 2016 Problem is that if that attitude was prevalent we would not be good at anything at all besides chopping down trees and digging holes in the ground. That's not it at all. Our expertise just doesn't lie in building jet fighters because we haven't developed one in 60 years. It can't be conjured out of thin air. Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
Smallc Posted March 15, 2016 Report Posted March 15, 2016 I Might buy into this whole ship building program if Irving and the others were going to actually try to and make an effort into building ships, after the navies contract is done, That's the point - the navy's contract doesn't end this time. The plan is a slow continuous build. Quote
dre Posted March 15, 2016 Report Posted March 15, 2016 That's not it at all. Our expertise just doesn't lie in building jet fighters because we haven't developed one in 60 years. It can't be conjured out of thin air. You gotta start somewhere. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
dre Posted March 15, 2016 Report Posted March 15, 2016 The problem is not wilbers attitude, take a look around it is the times we live in, Major industry we were once renown for such things as building ships, aircraft, are all but gone....Canadian industry closed up shop and left for greener pastures....it has become more cost effective to produce in other nations.....It is staring you right in the face and you refuse to see it....it is not just ship building etc it includes everything.....leaving us with trees and mud to dig in.... So when I asked you are we drawing a line in the sand, and we are attempting to reverse all of that there was no answer...if this is the way of the future, out sourcing why even go that route, why not embrace something that has been here for years and years and use that to our advantage....Why spend bils upon bils on employing a few thousand workers in a few depressed places....when those Bils could be used more effectively such as creating jobs, our navy getting ships that work,and want, for much cheaper.... I would have drawn a line in the sand a long time ago. And especially when it comes to public expenditures I would try to keep the money in the country if at all possible. That goes for all departments. But governments don't think long term. In the long term the countries surrendering all their productive capacity are going to be in a lot of trouble. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Wilber Posted March 15, 2016 Report Posted March 15, 2016 You gotta start somewhere. No we don't. Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
dre Posted March 16, 2016 Report Posted March 16, 2016 (edited) No we don't. It might be in our best interests to though. Especially in the case of ships... we have one of the longest coast lines in the world. We need vessels for the military and coast guard, plus fishing boats, ferries, pleasure boats, etc. It drives me nuts how stupid we are sometimes. Take a country like Sweden... they had a forest based economy like ours, but they created industries around all the value added stuff. They own the two biggest chainsaw manufacturers in the world, and manufacture all kinds of heavy logging equipment. And they have the biggest furniture company in the world. We just cut down trees, dig holes, and sell each other imported junk. Its gonna come back to bite us in the ass, and it already does every time the price of commodities goes down. Edited March 16, 2016 by dre Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Wilber Posted March 16, 2016 Report Posted March 16, 2016 It might be in our best interests to though. Especially in the case of ships... we have one of the longest coast lines in the world. We need vessels for the military and coast guard, plus fishing boats, ferries, pleasure boats, etc. Only if we are going to do it seriously and build ships and aircraft that we can sell to other countries, otherwise it will be like Army Guy says, the military will just pay a premium for its equipment that it can't afford. If we are going to have a defence industry it should be just that, a viable industry, not a make work project. Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
Smallc Posted March 16, 2016 Report Posted March 16, 2016 Only if we are going to do it seriously and build ships and aircraft that we can sell to other countries, otherwise it will be like Army Guy says, the military will just pay a premium for its equipment that it can't afford. If we are going to have a defence industry it should be just that, a viable industry, not a make work project. Is putting Canadians to work, whilst maintaining the capacity to build and repair our own ships, not important? Quote
dre Posted March 16, 2016 Report Posted March 16, 2016 Only if we are going to do it seriously and build ships and aircraft that we can sell to other countries, otherwise it will be like Army Guy says, the military will just pay a premium for its equipment that it can't afford. If we are going to have a defence industry it should be just that, a viable industry, not a make work project. It WOULD be nice to export some ships, but even just supplying the Canadian market for ships, ferries, and private craft would be a decent little industry. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Wilber Posted March 16, 2016 Report Posted March 16, 2016 It WOULD be nice to export some ships, but even just supplying the Canadian market for ships, ferries, and private craft would be a decent little industry. Warships and combat aircraft are very different from other ships and aircraft. The only similarity is that they are all ships and aircraft. Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
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