jamie_hmp Posted December 6, 2015 Report Posted December 6, 2015 (edited) Hey... we had a class project where we had to make a 'creative' video on the differences I was wondering if the reason (as indicated in the video) we see inefficiencies in our health system (more so than other countries) is because of too much federal regulation or too much free market (as the video states)? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLNIRcXn09U&feature=youtu.be Edited December 6, 2015 by jamie_hmp Quote
-1=e^ipi Posted December 6, 2015 Report Posted December 6, 2015 European health care systems are superior to both the Canadian system and the American system. Quote
Hal 9000 Posted December 6, 2015 Report Posted December 6, 2015 I would take the USA system with their rates and lower taxes over Canada' system with our rates and taxes any day. Quote The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so. - Ronald Reagan I have said that the Western world is just as violent as the Islamic world - Dialamah Europe seems to excel at fooling people to immigrate there from the ME only to chew them up and spit them back. - Eyeball Unfortunately our policies have contributed to retarding and limiting their (Muslim's) society's natural progression towards the same enlightened state we take for granted. - Eyeball
eyeball Posted December 6, 2015 Report Posted December 6, 2015 I would take the USA system with their rates and lower taxes over Canada' system with our rates and taxes any day. Obamacare is already better than our systems? Wow, I had no idea things were progressing so quickly down south. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Hal 9000 Posted December 6, 2015 Report Posted December 6, 2015 Obamacare is already better than our systems? Wow, I had no idea things were progressing so quickly down south. Well, Obamacare notwithstanding. Quote The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so. - Ronald Reagan I have said that the Western world is just as violent as the Islamic world - Dialamah Europe seems to excel at fooling people to immigrate there from the ME only to chew them up and spit them back. - Eyeball Unfortunately our policies have contributed to retarding and limiting their (Muslim's) society's natural progression towards the same enlightened state we take for granted. - Eyeball
ReeferMadness Posted December 6, 2015 Report Posted December 6, 2015 A few comments that might help: 1. The US has the highest health care costs in terms of percentage of GDP but is well down the list in terms of health indicators like infant mortality rate (the numbers are relatively easy to google). The main reason or this as I understand it is that insurance companies represent a huge administrative burden on the system. Obama was obviously too cowardly to take this model on and has only more firmly embedded the role of insurance companies. 2. I have seen arguments that the European hybrid models outperform Canada's single payer model but I don't recollect the yardsticks used. Again, it's not hard to find. 3. For years, the component of health care that has been rising the fastest is pharmaceutical costs. This is apparently due to voraciously greedy CEO's who look to be about 14 years old. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
Hal 9000 Posted December 6, 2015 Report Posted December 6, 2015 A few comments that might help: 1. The US has the highest health care costs in terms of percentage of GDP but is well down the list in terms of health indicators like infant mortality rate (the numbers are relatively easy to google). The main reason or this as I understand it is that insurance companies represent a huge administrative burden on the system. Obama was obviously too cowardly to take this model on and has only more firmly embedded the role of insurance companies. 2. I have seen arguments that the European hybrid models outperform Canada's single payer model but I don't recollect the yardsticks used. Again, it's not hard to find. 3. For years, the component of health care that has been rising the fastest is pharmaceutical costs. This is apparently due to voraciously greedy CEO's who look to be about 14 years old. Point 1...Different countries report things differently. Quote The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so. - Ronald Reagan I have said that the Western world is just as violent as the Islamic world - Dialamah Europe seems to excel at fooling people to immigrate there from the ME only to chew them up and spit them back. - Eyeball Unfortunately our policies have contributed to retarding and limiting their (Muslim's) society's natural progression towards the same enlightened state we take for granted. - Eyeball
ReeferMadness Posted December 6, 2015 Report Posted December 6, 2015 Point 1...Different countries report things differently. I've never seen stats that differ from what I said but feel free to post your own. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
bush_cheney2004 Posted December 6, 2015 Report Posted December 6, 2015 Canada has the best access/wait list system in the world, complete with supporting web sites for each province to see how long it will take to get a common medical procedure. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
waldo Posted December 7, 2015 Report Posted December 7, 2015 Canada has the best access/wait list system in the world, complete with supporting web sites for each province to see how long it will take to get a common medical procedure. still waiting for you to bring forward those U.S. access/wait lists... you know, the all encompassing U.S. lists that include private and public... and all manner of public! You sure have a lot to say about Canada's wait lists but somehow you just can't rise to the past repeated challenges put to you. Of course, you don't at all like those particular U.S. state focused lists that have been brought forward... apparently, those waits don't count, hey? and again, Canada's lists are prioritized to ensure life-threatening concerns are brought to the top... you know, the 'triage' concept you have belittled in the past. Quote
waldo Posted December 7, 2015 Report Posted December 7, 2015 Hey... we had a class project I trust your class project covered some of the gems that can be found within this rather lengthy past MLW thread: US dead last in health care it's a longy but a goodie... so long as you ignore all the deflection attempts! Quote
August1991 Posted December 8, 2015 Report Posted December 8, 2015 (edited) A few comments that might help: 1. The US has the highest health care costs in terms of percentage of GDP but is well down the list in terms of health indicators like infant mortality rate (the numbers are relatively easy to google). The main reason or this as I understand it is that insurance companies represent a huge administrative burden on the system. Obama was obviously too cowardly to take this model on and has only more firmly embedded the role of insurance companies. Richer people spend more of their income on health care than poor people. Since Americans are richer than others, they spend moreon health care. In addition, many foreigners go to the US for health care. In effect, the US "exports" health care. As a result, health care is a larger part of the US GDP. Similarly, energy production (and CO2 emissions) are a bigger part of the Australian (and Canadian) GDP. Edited December 8, 2015 by August1991 Quote
ReeferMadness Posted December 9, 2015 Report Posted December 9, 2015 Richer people spend more of their income on health care than poor people. Since Americans are richer than others, they spend moreon health care. In addition, many foreigners go to the US for health care. In effect, the US "exports" health care. As a result, health care is a larger part of the US GDP. Really. Do you have a cite for that? Of course not.... you pulled it completely out of your ass.... A McKinsey and Co. report from 2008 found that between 60,000 to 85,000 medical tourists were traveling to the United States for the purpose of receiving in-patient medical care.[68] The same McKinsey study estimated that 750,000 American medical tourists traveled from the United States to other countries in 2007 (up from 500,000 in 2006).[69] The availability of advanced medical technology and sophisticated training of physicians are cited as driving motivators for growth in foreigners traveling to the U.S. for medical care,[68] whereas the low costs for hospital stays and major/complex procedures at Western-accredited medical facilities abroad are cited as major motivators for American travelers. The number of people traveling to the US for medical care is roughly one tenth of the number of Americans fleeing their own hideously overpriced health care system for less costly procedures elsewhere. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
cannuck Posted December 9, 2015 Report Posted December 9, 2015 First of all, I object strenuously to referring to the clusterfrack of sick care we have as "health care". It is not. We actually do have some significant health care initiatives in Canada (the Canada Food Guide, IMHO, topping that list) and some glaring deficiencies (cost of access to fitness facilities, lack of tax deductibility for use of same, etc.). Americans will never get there because by their cultural and political nature, they simply do not trust government. The BIG difference is that the US tries to make everything into a business, and in Canada and the rest of the former G7 states, we realize that sick care is a social service. Where we fall short is simply realizing that ANYONE should be able to deliver those services - in a timely fashion. I will not bore you with the endless horror stories of wait times, but they really are ridiculous and totally un-neccessary. And, the numbers you hear are right: the yanks spend more than twice what we do, and get far poorer results. Biggest reason? The BUSINESS is so subject to ambulance chasers that most of what is practiced is prophylactic medicine to avoid possible liability. Actually dealing with the patient's problems (in most cases) is secondary. Quote
August1991 Posted December 10, 2015 Report Posted December 10, 2015 (edited) Really. Do you have a cite for that? Of course not.... you pulled it completely out of your ass...Your Wikipedia cite indicates that 85,000 foreigners travelled to the US for medical treatment in 2008 (one year). In 2008, one year, only 85,000 foreigners received medical treatment in the US? ReeferMadness, I use Wikipedia often. I even contribute to the Wikimedia Foundation. But I'm sceptical of all sources. Edited December 10, 2015 by August1991 Quote
dre Posted December 10, 2015 Report Posted December 10, 2015 Richer people spend more of their income on health care than poor people. Since Americans are richer than others, they spend moreon health care. In addition, many foreigners go to the US for health care. In effect, the US "exports" health care. As a result, health care is a larger part of the US GDP. Similarly, energy production (and CO2 emissions) are a bigger part of the Australian (and Canadian) GDP. You could not be more wrong. 85 000 May have traveled to the US for healthcare nearly a million Americans per year flee the American UPG (universal price gouging) system to get healthcare in other countries. America is not an exporter of healthcare, in fact they are a huge net importer of healthcare from foreign countries A forecast by Deloitte Consulting published in August 2008 projected that medical tourism originating in the US could jump by a factor of ten over the next decade. An estimated 750,000 Americans went abroad for health care in 2007, and the report estimated that 1.5 million would seek health care outside the US in 2008. The growth in medical tourism has the potential to cost US health care providers billions of dollars in lost revenue.[11] Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
August1991 Posted December 10, 2015 Report Posted December 10, 2015 You could not be more wrong.sYour Deloitte link states that 750,000 Americans went abroad for health care. In a country of over 300 million, your number (if accurate) is irrelevant - and suspect. Quote
dre Posted December 10, 2015 Report Posted December 10, 2015 Your Deloitte link states that 750,000 Americans went abroad for health care. In a country of over 300 million, your number (if accurate) is irrelevant - and suspect. Hahhaha So 1 million people fleeing the last-place us healthcare system from a population of 300 million is irrelevant, but 85 thousand visitors to the US from a global population of billions is something to write home about? In any case youre still dead wrong. The American population is a big net purchaser of healthcare not a net producer (exporter). Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
bush_cheney2004 Posted December 10, 2015 Report Posted December 10, 2015 (edited) Actually, the United States is the world's largest net exporter for health care medical devices, pharma, IT, and other medical products/services, being areas of consistent trade surpluses with other nations, including Canada. The single state of New Jersey's output and exports exceeds that of many entire nations. That's one reason why some here are freaking out over TPP and extended IP rights. Edited December 10, 2015 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
ReeferMadness Posted December 10, 2015 Report Posted December 10, 2015 Your Wikipedia cite indicates that 85,000 foreigners travelled to the US for medical treatment in 2008 (one year). In 2008, one year, only 85,000 foreigners received medical treatment in the US? ReeferMadness, I use Wikipedia often. I even contribute to the Wikimedia Foundation. But I'm sceptical of all sources. Oh. So, you don't like my source and your source is... because you said so? :lol: Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
August1991 Posted December 13, 2015 Report Posted December 13, 2015 (edited) Oh. So, you don't like my source and your source is... because you said so? :lol: I think the source is Forbes and it offered this definition: It narrowly defined medical travelers as only those whose primary and explicit purpose in traveling was to obtain in-patient medical treatment in a foreign country, putting the total number of travelers at 60,000 to 85,000 per year. Forbes That's a 2008 number, and I'm still sceptical. Edited December 13, 2015 by August1991 Quote
ReeferMadness Posted December 13, 2015 Report Posted December 13, 2015 I think the source is Forbes and it offered this definition: Forbes That's a 2008 number, and I'm still sceptical. You can be as skeptical as you like. You still have offered no source to back up your claim that American medical expenditures are a large percentage of GDP as a result of medical tourism. Take as much time as you need. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
bush_cheney2004 Posted December 13, 2015 Report Posted December 13, 2015 IMHO, Canada and Canadians have benefited far more from the U.S. health care system and medical industry than have the United States and Americans benefited from Canada's. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
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