On Guard for Thee Posted December 13, 2015 Report Posted December 13, 2015 Now there's a broad assumption if I've ever heard one. Not uncommon here though.
Argus Posted December 13, 2015 Report Posted December 13, 2015 As has been pointed out here numerous times, you should be more concerned about being hit by lighting. But I guess phobias take all kinds of tacks. I can avoid standing under trees during the occasional thunderstorm, and do. What do I do to avoid the societal impact of millions of Muslims all voting for parties willing to impose laws which appeal to their religious values? What do I do to avoid paying for hundreds of thousands of immigrants who have insufficient skills or education to support themselves here? "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
dialamah Posted December 13, 2015 Report Posted December 13, 2015 I've seen nothing to indicate your expressed values are shared by more than a small minority of progressive elistists. Mine, on the other hand, are pretty much universal. Oddly, I've seen just the opposite - anti-Muslim rhetoric expressed by just a few, and most people - conservative or liberal - understanding that those few thousand extremists are not indicative of the over 1.5 Billion other Muslims around the world.
On Guard for Thee Posted December 13, 2015 Report Posted December 13, 2015 I can avoid standing under trees during the occasional thunderstorm, and do. What do I do to avoid the societal impact of millions of Muslims all voting for parties willing to impose laws which appeal to their religious values? What do I do to avoid paying for hundreds of thousands of immigrants who have insufficient skills or education to support themselves here? I would worry more about avoiding trees in a T-storm. I doubt people fleeing a war zone will be in any hurry to re create one in their new home.
Argus Posted December 13, 2015 Report Posted December 13, 2015 Oddly, I've seen just the opposite - anti-Muslim rhetoric expressed by just a few, and most people - conservative or liberal - understanding that those few thousand extremists are not indicative of the over 1.5 Billion other Muslims around the world. Seriously? What do you regard as an extremist? Let's examine Pakistan, which is one of our major source countries for immigration. Population of 182 million (officially). 84% support Sharia law, 62% support the death penalty for apostasy. Do you regard such people as extremists or 'moderates'? "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
dialamah Posted December 13, 2015 Report Posted December 13, 2015 (edited) Seriously? What do you regard as an extremist? Let's examine Pakistan, which is one of our major source countries for immigration. Population of 182 million (officially). 84% support Sharia law, 62% support the death penalty for apostasy. Do you regard such people as extremists or 'moderates'? What I consider extremism is too broad a question because I'd have to include things like putting people in jail for life because they sold pot and got caught three times. Do I consider aspects of Sharia law extreme? Yes, I do. Do I consider governments in other areas of the world oppressive and violent? Absolutely. Am I worried about Sharia law coming to Canada as a result of accepting Muslim immigrants and refugees? No, I'm not. We have laws against those sorts of things. That region of the world is moving toward Western concepts of freedom and rights - driven by the very people you lump in with the violent extremists. We are not moving in their direction, despite what Trump and his supporters spout off about. It's a slow process and as we see, there is lots of fighting about it. Global warming may kill us all before we're all on the same page regarding human rights and freedoms, but I'm not going to ignore and discount indications of progress because I'm afraid of becoming "like them". Edited December 13, 2015 by dialamah
Smallc Posted December 13, 2015 Report Posted December 13, 2015 Written by men...or women in certain cases. Deborah comes to mind. Yes, and divinely inspired.
Argus Posted December 13, 2015 Report Posted December 13, 2015 What I consider extremism is too broad a question because I'd have to include things like putting people in jail for life because they sold pot and got caught three times. Fine. Do you consider those Muslims who want apostates put to death to be extremist? "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
dialamah Posted December 13, 2015 Report Posted December 13, 2015 Fine. Do you consider those Muslims who want apostates put to death to be extremist? Yes.
cybercoma Posted December 13, 2015 Report Posted December 13, 2015 I have other concerns with the importation of large numbers of people with values which are foreign and hostile to my own.Most Canadians hold values that are evidently foreign to your nationalist and supremacist views.
DogOnPorch Posted December 14, 2015 Report Posted December 14, 2015 Most Canadians hold values that are evidently foreign to your nationalist and supremacist views. Islam could produce Moon Landings...if it just applied itself. Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
eyeball Posted December 14, 2015 Report Posted December 14, 2015 Islam could produce Moon Landings...if it just applied itself. And it probably would if it just wasn't so overwhelmed with the impact of superpower interference the last 100 years or so. A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Argus Posted December 14, 2015 Report Posted December 14, 2015 (edited) Yes. Okay. Well, that's not 'thousands'. That's 112 million people in Pakistan alone. Which is, as I've said, one of our biggest source countries for immigrants. Edited December 14, 2015 by Argus "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Big Guy Posted December 14, 2015 Report Posted December 14, 2015 (edited) News Flash for Canadian Islamophobes; A newly discovered terrorist cell has been located in Calgary. It is currently made up of midgets pretending to be Canadian children but singing the praises of Islam. A recent video was smuggled out of one of their meetings (singings) and obviously indicates their hate of Western values: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofLPHXPpQQQ Those terrorists seem to look a lot like Canadian kids. Edited December 14, 2015 by Big Guy Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
dialamah Posted December 14, 2015 Report Posted December 14, 2015 Okay. Well, that's not 'thousands'. That's 112 million people in Pakistan alone. Which is, as I've said, one of our biggest source countries for immigrants. All right. When I say "thousands" of extremists, I am specifically referring to those who have taken the step of actual violence: kidnappings, suicide attacks, beheadings, that sort of extremism. Extremist views are much more common than extremist action.
dialamah Posted December 14, 2015 Report Posted December 14, 2015 Those terrorists seem to look a lot like Canadian kids. Merely a clever disguise. Turns out the niqab was too identifiable.
Argus Posted December 14, 2015 Report Posted December 14, 2015 All right. When I say "thousands" of extremists, I am specifically referring to those who have taken the step of actual violence: kidnappings, suicide attacks, beheadings, that sort of extremism. Extremist views are much more common than extremist action. But extremist actions are born of extremist views, would you not agree? And should we be deliberately bringing people into this country in large numbers who have extremist views? "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
On Guard for Thee Posted December 14, 2015 Report Posted December 14, 2015 But extremist actions are born of extremist views, would you not agree? And should we be deliberately bringing people into this country in large numbers who have extremist views? How is it you decide they have extremist views? Or is this just another wall to wall assumption?
Argus Posted December 14, 2015 Report Posted December 14, 2015 (edited) How is it you decide they have extremist views? Or is this just another wall to wall assumption? It was a progression from his agreement that those believe apostates should be executed are extremists. Do you believe those who want apostates to be executed are extremists? Edited December 14, 2015 by Argus "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
On Guard for Thee Posted December 14, 2015 Report Posted December 14, 2015 It was a progression from his agreement that those believe apostates should be executed are extremists. Do you believe those who want apostates to be executed are extremists? What kind of a question is that? Of course, everyone thinks that. But why do you set your hair on fire assuming all the refugees are of that ilk?
Argus Posted December 14, 2015 Report Posted December 14, 2015 What kind of a question is that? Of course, everyone thinks that. But why do you set your hair on fire assuming all the refugees are of that ilk? I'm not. There is a flow to conversation, you know, and not every single words is directly on topic. "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
eyeball Posted December 14, 2015 Report Posted December 14, 2015 I'm not. There is a flow to conversation, you know, and not every single words is directly on topic. Do tell. A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
dialamah Posted December 14, 2015 Report Posted December 14, 2015 But extremist actions are born of extremist views, would you not agree? Yes I do agree. It's why I object to anti-Muslim rhetoric. Most people who say nasty things about Muslims aren't going to do anything about it, but they do embolden those few who will act. And should we be deliberately bringing people into this country in large numbers who have extremist views? I have no proof that such a thing is happening or is likely to, for the following reasons: 1. People are vetted prior to being permitted to come to Canada, whether through refugee program or as immigrants. 2. People in that region don't appear all that thrilled about the idea of coming to Canada, probably because they know it's not much like home socially and politically. 3. People who do choose to come to Canada to settle are probably not the conservative type, which implies they'll be more progressive and thus less likely to hold to such extreme mindsets. 4. It seems especially unlikely that refugees, after seeing what happens with extremism, will pursue it here. I do agree that extremism is a problem, but think it's a problem whether it's an Imam delivering a sermon in a Mosque, or a white supremacist writing blogs and recruiting on Facebook. I think a discussion on how to counteract extremism in all its forms would be good; selecting a single group and pretending that is the only problem isn't a solution.
On Guard for Thee Posted December 14, 2015 Report Posted December 14, 2015 Yes I do agree. It's why I object to anti-Muslim rhetoric. Most people who say nasty things about Muslims aren't going to do anything about it, but they do embolden those few who will act. selecting a single group and pretending that is the only problem isn't a solution. That's correct. That's a phobia.
Argus Posted December 14, 2015 Report Posted December 14, 2015 Yes I do agree. It's why I object to anti-Muslim rhetoric. You seem to have different views of what constitutes extremist depending on the race of the individuals concerned. What "anti-Muslim rhetoric" is largely concerned with it wariness about the extremism of Islam and how many extremists there are. That is long leagues away from Muslim extremism which calls for the wholesale slaughter of enemies. I have no proof that such a thing is happening or is likely to, for the following reasons: Sure you do. You've already accepted that almost 70% of the country has extremist views. Do you imagine none of the thousands of Pakistani immigrants who come here every year come from among this group? That is wholly unrealistic. 1. People are vetted prior to being permitted to come to Canada, whether through refugee program or as immigrants. Not really. The only vetting done is for criminal records. Their files are analyzed according to their skillset, language skills and education. No one asks them questions about their religious or social views. 2. People in that region don't appear all that thrilled about the idea of coming to Canada, probably because they know it's not much like home socially and politically. You are speaking of refugees who have nothing, and thus are not eager to leave the region entirely and start a new life among non-Muslims who don't speak Arabic. They also know almost nothing about Canada. Pakistani immigrants are entirely different. 3. People who do choose to come to Canada to settle are probably not the conservative type, Probably? The Khadrs came to Canada. Do you think they're the progressive type? 4. It seems especially unlikely that refugees, after seeing what happens with extremism, will pursue it here. Unlikely? You might want to look at one of the cites I posted yesterday speaking about the harsh conservatism of some of the Syrian refugees in Germany. "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
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