DogOnPorch Posted May 23, 2017 Report Posted May 23, 2017 (edited) 1 minute ago, bcsapper said: Sure, but you know what I mean. My opinion of Islam is public record on here. I'm assuming you're playing the advocate here somewhat. There is no such thing as sorta pregnant. Edited May 23, 2017 by DogOnPorch Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Goh Shenas Posted May 23, 2017 Report Posted May 23, 2017 (edited) 3 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said: The Mufti escaped justice at the end of WW2 for his participation in the Holocaust and went on to start the Arab-Israeli conflict. I'd say it's alive and well. It is well known and documented mufti's affiliation with SS. This is why they want to exterminate jews. Edited May 23, 2017 by Goh Shenas
Goh Shenas Posted May 23, 2017 Report Posted May 23, 2017 3 minutes ago, bcsapper said: Sure, but you know what I mean. My opinion of Islam is public record on here. That you are s Muslim sympathiser? Yes I know
DogOnPorch Posted May 23, 2017 Report Posted May 23, 2017 Just now, Goh Shenas said: It is well kniwn and documented mufti's affiliation with SS. This is why they want to exterminate jews. Or anybody eventually. The PLO and PFLP were keen on hijacking or blowing-up airliners...often. Entebbe brought that era to a close.... Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
DogOnPorch Posted May 23, 2017 Report Posted May 23, 2017 1 minute ago, Goh Shenas said: That you are s Muslim sympathiser? Yes I know No...he's using the Socratic Method on you as the Devil's Advocate. Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Argus Posted May 23, 2017 Report Posted May 23, 2017 7 minutes ago, Goh Shenas said: It's not just clerics but their whole population feeds on this backward ideology. The population believes what the clerics tell them, and these are populations which are filled with jealousy and resentment towards the decadent, wealthy West, which has all the power in the world, as they see it. Everyone wants to feel they're better than someone else, that their group is better than some group of nasty foreigners. Since they are clearly poorer and weaker, what they seem to have seized on is that they are holier and purer, without the decadent, filthy, godless lifestyles of the West. They have embraced their sense of insecurity and godliness in poor societies where there really isn't anything else to take pride in. "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Goh Shenas Posted May 23, 2017 Report Posted May 23, 2017 3 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said: The Mufti escaped justice at the end of WW2 for his participation in the Holocaust and went on to start the Arab-Israeli conflict. I'd say it's alive and well. The Mufti legacy left lots of hatred for jews. That aside the level of anti semitism now is staggering. People are using different approach to attack jews...
Argus Posted May 23, 2017 Report Posted May 23, 2017 3 minutes ago, Goh Shenas said: That you are s Muslim sympathiser? Yes I know No, he is not. 1 "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Guest Posted May 23, 2017 Report Posted May 23, 2017 5 minutes ago, Argus said: I think the problem as Irshad Manji has long said, is that culture controls the context of how Islam is interpreted. And it was last officially interpreted centuries ago by Arabs of that time. And since it is the literal word of God and the interpretations have been declared infallible, anyone who goes against them is committing blasphemy. And that is a dangerous, dangerous accusation in the Muslim world. Thus however 'moderate' a person might be they're not about to challenge the existing interpretation of Islam. It doesn't take much to wind up in prison or dead. Thus the culture in the Muslim world is one of smothering conformity with Islam and it's old interpretation. And that interpretation looks on western morality and cultures with a very hostile eye. Because of this I've long maintained Islam will never change without heavy external pressure. I agree, which I why I take great pains to argue Islam vs Muslims. I understand the reluctance of Muslims to separate themselves from extremists in countries like Pakistan or Saudi, but I am sure they exist, as I am sure they exist to even greater numbers in the west. I understand extremists do too. I see the reluctance to allow for moderate Muslims as playing into the hands of those for whom the main goal is the avoidance of some hijab pulling on the subway. From such notions Mosque shootings occur. It's difficult for some to overcome the frustration of not having the enemy taken seriously, and the only way you can have him taken seriously is to define him correctly.
dialamah Posted May 23, 2017 Report Posted May 23, 2017 27 minutes ago, Hydraboss said: I'm curious how you back up "most". Actually, same comment as I wrote above. Sure, I believe women should be treated this way, but how do you back up "most"? Just because "most" men don't rape, does this automatically mean they don't believe in it? This is the kind of generalization that you accuse others of making albeit in favor of a positive trait. I assume most men don't believe in rape because most men don't rape and, when asked, most men say they don't approve of rape. Sure, they could be lying, but since most men still aren't out raping, it seems that their actions bear out their words. Same for Muslims; I assume most Muslims don't believe they must kill infidels because they don't kill them; if asked, most also say that it's not their job to kill infidels. Sure, they could be lying, but since they aren't out killing infidels, it seems their actions bear out their words. True, I do generalize to the 'goodness' of people. Science and history generally bear this out, though. While wars and brutality have always been part of human experience, cooperation and compassion have enabled us to survive our own worst selves. Most people are happy to live their own lives and let others live theirs; some are not, and those are the ones who cause the problems and, in our modern age, get featured on the news.
Goh Shenas Posted May 23, 2017 Report Posted May 23, 2017 3 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said: Or anybody eventually. The PLO and PFLP were keen on hijacking or blowing-up airliners...often. Entebbe brought that era to a close.... PLO, PFLP, they are all bunch of tossers. They don't care about anyone but themselves. Pretty much what Muslims do. Blowing up airlines, suicide bombing, hiding behind children....
Guest Posted May 23, 2017 Report Posted May 23, 2017 8 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said: I'm assuming you're playing the advocate here somewhat. There is no such thing as sorta pregnant. Not sure what you mean. Is it because I differentiate between Islam, the idea, and Muslims, the people?
DogOnPorch Posted May 23, 2017 Report Posted May 23, 2017 3 minutes ago, Goh Shenas said: The Mufti legacy left lots of hatred for jews. That aside the level of anti semitism now is staggering. People are using different approach to attack jews... The Mufti as well as his cohorts in the Muslim Brotherhood (et al) work(ed) hard to keep Hitler's dream alive after WW2 as it was a common dream of Islam to physically destroy the Jews. Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
scribblet Posted May 23, 2017 Report Posted May 23, 2017 The Manchester Police are warning they will not tolerate hate towards any parts of the community after this terror attack yet they sure tolerated it towards young Caucasian girls who were groomed and sold by Asian gangs.. not only tolerated it but suppressed the information. How many more hashtags will there be after #pray for Manchester Hey Ho - Ontario Liberals Have to Go - Fight Wynne - save our province
DogOnPorch Posted May 23, 2017 Report Posted May 23, 2017 Just now, bcsapper said: Not sure what you mean. Is it because I differentiate between Islam, the idea, and Muslims, the people? What's a Muslim? It isn't a skin colour or a physical location. Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Argus Posted May 23, 2017 Report Posted May 23, 2017 Just now, bcsapper said: I agree, which I why I take great pains to argue Islam vs Muslims. I understand the reluctance of Muslims to separate themselves from extremists in countries like Pakistan or Saudi, but I am sure they exist, as I am sure they exist to even greater numbers in the west. I understand extremists do too. I see the reluctance to allow for moderate Muslims as playing into the hands of those for whom the main goal is the avoidance of some hijab pulling on the subway. From such notions Mosque shootings occur. It's difficult for some to overcome the frustration of not having the enemy taken seriously, and the only way you can have him taken seriously is to define him correctly. You might find this illuminating,if you have time. It's a transcript of a discussion involving Irshad Manji and some Muslim scholars and journalists. Moderate Muslims do denounce a violence that is committed in the name of Islam, very much so. But they deny that religion plays any role in that violence. The very first thing you will hear from the mouth of a moderate, typically, after an act of violence committed in the name of Islam is, please don't misunderstand, Islam has nothing to do with this. But that's not true. Because those who are committing the violence cite Islam as their inspiration. What reformist Muslims do is that we acknowledge there is violence, but we also say that the way in which some people are using our religion is that they are inspired by religion to commit that violence. In other words, when moderate Muslims say that Islam has nothing to do with this, they are the ones, in my humble view, who are seeding the ground, who are handing over the ground of theological interpretation to those who already have malignant intentions. But we have to acknowledge that there are verses that terrorists are using, and that they should not have the last word. You can't do that if you're going to say Islam has nothing to do with this violence. http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/headtohead/2016/01/transcript-irshad-manji-islamophobia-160123075229052.html "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Guest Posted May 23, 2017 Report Posted May 23, 2017 Just now, DogOnPorch said: What's a Muslim? It isn't a skin colour or a physical location. It's a definition that is in the hands of the definer. It is at the root of all our disagreements.
DogOnPorch Posted May 23, 2017 Report Posted May 23, 2017 Just now, bcsapper said: It's a definition that is in the hands of the definer. It is at the root of all our disagreements. One who practices Islam. Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
DogOnPorch Posted May 23, 2017 Report Posted May 23, 2017 What desert is Christianity from? Hint. It isn't in Arizona. Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Goh Shenas Posted May 23, 2017 Report Posted May 23, 2017 (edited) 3 minutes ago, bcsapper said: It's a definition that is in the hands of the definer. It is at the root of all our disagreements. Would you agree that all Muslims are complicit in the actions of a few who commit crimes against humanity in the name of Islam? Grand Mufti seem to have instilled this hatred in all of them Edited May 23, 2017 by Goh Shenas
Guest Posted May 23, 2017 Report Posted May 23, 2017 2 minutes ago, Argus said: You might find this illuminating,if you have time. It's a transcript of a discussion involving Irshad Manji and some Muslim scholars and journalists. Moderate Muslims do denounce a violence that is committed in the name of Islam, very much so. But they deny that religion plays any role in that violence. The very first thing you will hear from the mouth of a moderate, typically, after an act of violence committed in the name of Islam is, please don't misunderstand, Islam has nothing to do with this. But that's not true. Because those who are committing the violence cite Islam as their inspiration. What reformist Muslims do is that we acknowledge there is violence, but we also say that the way in which some people are using our religion is that they are inspired by religion to commit that violence. In other words, when moderate Muslims say that Islam has nothing to do with this, they are the ones, in my humble view, who are seeding the ground, who are handing over the ground of theological interpretation to those who already have malignant intentions. But we have to acknowledge that there are verses that terrorists are using, and that they should not have the last word. You can't do that if you're going to say Islam has nothing to do with this violence. http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/headtohead/2016/01/transcript-irshad-manji-islamophobia-160123075229052.html Absolutely. I've never been of the opinion that was anything other than religious justification behind Islamic excesses, be they using bombs or canes. But if there is only one who understand that, and opposes it, I'll defend his or her right not to be lumped in with the rest.
Goh Shenas Posted May 23, 2017 Report Posted May 23, 2017 5 minutes ago, Argus said: You might find this illuminating,if you have time. It's a transcript of a discussion involving Irshad Manji and some Muslim scholars and journalists. Moderate Muslims do denounce a violence that is committed in the name of Islam, very much so. But they deny that religion plays any role in that violence. The very first thing you will hear from the mouth of a moderate, typically, after an act of violence committed in the name of Islam is, please don't misunderstand, Islam has nothing to do with this. But that's not true. Because those who are committing the violence cite Islam as their inspiration. What reformist Muslims do is that we acknowledge there is violence, but we also say that the way in which some people are using our religion is that they are inspired by religion to commit that violence. In other words, when moderate Muslims say that Islam has nothing to do with this, they are the ones, in my humble view, who are seeding the ground, who are handing over the ground of theological interpretation to those who already have malignant intentions. But we have to acknowledge that there are verses that terrorists are using, and that they should not have the last word. You can't do that if you're going to say Islam has nothing to do with this violence. http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/headtohead/2016/01/transcript-irshad-manji-islamophobia-160123075229052.html All moderate muslims are complicit no matter how you twist this
Guest Posted May 23, 2017 Report Posted May 23, 2017 3 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said: One who practices Islam. Yes, but they do get to pick how they do that, regardless of how it is written they should. That is my point. They get to do that.
Argus Posted May 23, 2017 Report Posted May 23, 2017 1 minute ago, Goh Shenas said: All moderate muslims are complicit no matter how you twist this Many are. Their societies are complicit. "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Goh Shenas Posted May 23, 2017 Report Posted May 23, 2017 Just now, Argus said: Many are. Their societies are complicit. Exactly! That's why their societies cannot adapt to ours.
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