Paris might be problem for Trudeau

[kimmy]

Does he know that fake passports are being mass produced and imported with the refugees in bulk?

And does he know that a real passport is no guarantee that the person isn't also with ISIS?

-k

[Bryan]

25000/9 is 2778. I think we should just stop them coming in.

If that math is correct, it would also appear that each one terrorist that comes in is capable of radicalizing at least 9 more of the locals they hook up with.

[Bryan]

And does he know that a real passport is no guarantee that the person isn't also with ISIS?

-k

That too.

[Derek 2.0]

And does he know that a real passport is no guarantee that the person isn't also with ISIS?

-k

Good point, if one is intent on blowing themselves up, what do they care, if after the fact, authorities easily determine who they are.....

Edited November 15, 2015 by Derek 2.0

[msj]

Good point, if one is intent on blowing themselves up, what do they care, if after the fact, authorities easily determine who they where.....

My preference, if I were so inclined as to blow myself up, would be to mislead the authorities.

[Derek 2.0]

My preference, if I were so inclined as to blow myself up, would be to mislead the authorities.

Ok, but ISIS has been quite clear, months ago, that they have placed members among refugees and here we are......

[angrypenguin]

Giving into the fear changes us indeed. It changed our government to pass legislation like Bill C-51. Former PM Harper used the fear of terrorism to his advantage to change our laws which did not give us any more security, but has crept more into our sense of freedom.

---SNIP---

What you call fear I call reality.

Edited November 17, 2015 by Charles Anthony
excessive quoting [---SNIP---]

[msj]

Ok, but ISIS has been quite clear, months ago, that they have placed members among refugees and here we are......

That is the claim.

I don't doubt that they would like to try the Trojan horse method.

Why not?

It gives them all kinds of little victories: slows down the acceptance of refugees to the west which they don't want, still allows some terrorists the chance to get through etc etc.

That's why we implement our people to process them and our security people to provide security.

Otherwise we let the terrorists dictate our policy and change our principles to an unacceptable level.

Edited November 15, 2015 by msj

[dialamah]

If that math is correct, it would also appear that each one terrorist that comes in is capable of radicalizing at least 9 more of the locals they hook up with.

Neither the math nor the logic is correct. In order to determine just how much of a threat Syrian refugees are, one would have to know how many Syrians were processed in October, to produce one active terrorist. Even better would be knowing how many terrorist attacks have ever originated from refugees in general, and Syrians in particular.

It's extremely unlikely that the other 8 were 'radicalized' in merely a month, especially since two of the Frenchmen were currently living in Brussels and appeared to have traveled to France for this event. Much more likely is that the other 8 were already radicalized.

Just to be clear, I think it's important to take all security measures when letting anyone into Canada, whether Syrian refugees or not. But focusing on the refugees as if they are by definition a greater threat than people living within Canada or utilizing any of a number of ways to come to Canada either permanently or temporarily is a mistake. In all the reports of terror attacks I'm aware of, there have been citizens of the attacked country heavily involved. In my opinion, refugees are the least of our problems; radicalization within our borders is a lot bigger problem.

[Derek 2.0]

That's why we implement our people to process them and our security people to provide security.

Otherwise we let the terrorists dictate our policy and change our principles to an unacceptable level.

But in Canada's case, our own Government is mandating a policy that will see the entire process rushed for no logical reason other than to keep an election promise.

[Keepitsimple]

If that math is correct, it would also appear that each one terrorist that comes in is capable of radicalizing at least 9 more of the locals they hook up with.

Don't fall for the 1 out of 9 or 1 out of 100 arguments. It's not only potential "terrorists" who have to be screened out - it's about those who are sympathizers - those who would readily aid and abet terrorist activity. It's nasty business - better to be very safe than very, very sorry.

Edited November 15, 2015 by Keepitsimple

[msj]

Agreed: it was a stupid promise to make and hopefully some good will come from a pause for some reflection of reality.

[dialamah]

Ok, but ISIS has been quite clear, months ago, that they have placed members among refugees and here we are......

ISIS says and does many things to make the rest of the world feel afraid. I agree with whoever said that announcing their intention here seems more likely intended to mislead than to warn. And how convenient that a Syrian refugee passport was found near one of the attacker's body. At this point, I don't think you should dance to the tune of ISIS by assuming that Syrian refugees are a larger threat than any other incoming demographic.

[msj]

Don't fall for the 1 out of 9 or 1 out of 100 arguments. It's not only potential "terrorists" who have to be screened out - it's about those who would are sympathizers - those who would readily aid and abet terrorist activity. It's nasty business - better to be very safe than very, very sorry.

Yes, the 80 or 90% of Muslims who are "moderate" but effectively sanitize the extremism because they will sooner sympathize with the Islamist who kills the cartoonist who drew Mohammed but will remain silent when it comes to the savages who cut down children at a concert hall.

I agree that this needs to be remembered and considered as we are dealing with fascist ideas that get special privileged protection from certain quarters because they are under the guise of religion.

[dialamah]

Don't fall for the 1 out of 9 or 1 out of 100 arguments. It's not only potential "terrorists" who have to be screened out - it's about those who are sympathizers - those who would readily aid and abet terrorist activity. It's nasty business - better to be very safe than very, very sorry.

I think the 'sympathizers' and abettors more likely to be already in-country developed from within a country's citizens.

[Derek 2.0]

Agreed: it was a stupid promise to make and hopefully some good will come from a pause for some reflection of reality.

I've no qualms with accepting refugees, my issue is putting the security of Canadians at risk by rushing the process, for no benefit to Canadians, so Trudeau can keep a stupid promise, a promise that I'm sure most Canadians (more so with recent events) don't care if he kept.

Politically, breaking the promise, might hurt him ever so slightly with some of his base, and give the Opposition a brief point of attack.......but if he keeps his promise, and we were to see a Paris style attack in Canada (or the United States) there would be far longer lasting consequences.

[WestCoastRunner]

Does he know that fake passports are being mass produced and imported with the refugees in bulk?

Fake passports are also being obtained from legitimate refugees who had to leave documentation behind when fleeing Syria.

[msj]

Yep, I can agree with that.

[Derek 2.0]

Fake passports are also being obtained from legitimate refugees who had to leave documentation behind when fleeing Syria.

Maybe so, regardless, be they fakes, stolen/bought or their real passports and documents, that is all the more reason to not rush the process of bringing refugees into Canada without proper security screening.

[WestCoastRunner]

Maybe so, regardless, be they fakes, stolen/bought or their real passports and documents, that is all the more reason to not rush the process of bringing refugees into Canada without proper security screening.

I do agree with that, however, I just wanted to point out that fake passports are also in the possession of legitimate refugees.

[Derek 2.0]

I do agree with that, however, I just wanted to point out that fake passports are also in the possession of legitimate refugees.

Fair enough, but I would question how legitimate the refugee is if they are attempting to enter a country under a false pretense with a fake passport.

[WestCoastRunner]

Fair enough, but I would question how legitimate the refugee is if they are attempting to enter a country under a false pretense with a fake passport.

Because they can't go home and they can't move forward without one apparently. They are in limbo and so are the babies being born in the refugee camps. It's a desperate situation for the legitimate refugees.

Edited November 15, 2015 by WestCoastRunner

[WestCoastRunner]

Many people have not thought of the babies being born in these refugee camps. Some facts:

• At least 100,000 babies have been born to Syrian parents in exile over the past five years, according to the European Commission’s humanitarian arm. Turkey is home to at least 60,000 such infants, AFAD said, and another 70 are born here each day.

• Syrian nationality laws only allow children to obtain citizenship through their fathers. But many men “have either died in combat or regime bombardments or are fighting among opposition ranks,” an AFAD spokesman said. Women outnumber men in Turkey’s 25 refugee camps, and many are single mothers with small children.

• “The sheer volume of exodus of Syrian refugees, coupled with obstacles to birth registration as well as destroyed civil registries and gender discriminatory nationality laws, constitute a toxic mix and a ticking time bomb in terms of the risk of childhood statelessness,” said Chris Nash, director of the European Network on Statelessness, a coalition of human rights groups.

We can't lose sight of this as we consider ways to allow legitimate refugees into Canada.

http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2015/9/24/not-syrian-not-turkish.html

[WestCoastRunner]

Fair enough, but I would question how legitimate the refugee is if they are attempting to enter a country under a false pretense with a fake passport.

It is also difficult for refugees to obtain work without some form of identification.

[WestCanMan]

We all talk to people outside of Canada. That alone could be justification for communications snooping.

But what do I have to hide? Try turning the surveillance in on the government and see what they are afraid of. We had the former PM Harper saying he wanted open government, but all his actions proved to go against that notion. This is the real problem many have with the notion of mass surveillance. Who is watching the watchers? Benevolence my ass.

Do you want to tie the hands of the govt so they can't protect us?

When some dude drops his kids off at the same school that you do and then gets into a car with a known terrorist do you want the gov't to check up on him? When he doesn't drop his kids off do you feel a bit antsy dropping yours off?

There are known members of terrorist orgs in this country unless everything is just a massive conspiracy theory. I really like it when someone from csis opens their email, or monitors their chat, texting, etc. I want them to piece together that network before they do anything major.

It's not the govt that you need to be wary of, it's the media more than anything. They are the ones who form public opinion, and public opinion steers gov't.