.

[Michael Hardner]

These Stanford kids should maybe do a study on white guilt,...

There are studies such as that, I believe. I read a summation of one in the 1990s about white liberal ambivalence towards white poverty. You could look one up and start a thread, that would perhaps be interesting.

[Black Dog]

I think there's no question there is some advantage to being a white male. I also think there's no question that what I just said is not true for everyone, or in all circumstances. Maybe people in the study weren't all making excuses?

Apparently that simple statement is incredibly hard for some to wrap their heads around.

[-1=e^ipi]

Apparently that simple statement is incredibly hard for some to wrap their heads around.

I think you missed the part about it not being true for everyone.

[Hal 9000]

When talking about "white privilege", who are supposed to comparing to; Asians, Blacks, First Nations, Indians?

[Black Dog]

I think you missed the part about it not being true for everyone.

No I saw that, but it's such an thuddingly obvious point that I didn't see the need to underscore it.

You know what's hilarious to me? Your consistent denial of the existence of white privilege set side by side with your certainty that gender privilege is real (and overwhelmingly benefits women).

[Argus]

I think there's no question there is some advantage to being a white male. I also think there's no question that what I just said is not true for everyone, or in all circumstances. Maybe people in the study weren't all making excuses?

What is the advantage, other than physical, of being a White male over a White female in this society?

[Argus]

Apparently that simple statement is incredibly hard for some to wrap their heads around.

Perhaps because it's not been demonstrated to the satisfaction of everyone.

[Black Dog]

What is the advantage, other than physical, of being a White male over a White female in this society?

If you have a job or an opinion, people will assume you're competent/know what you're talking about until proven otherwise.

Oh and you can walk down the street without getting catcalled.

[Argus]

If you have a job or an opinion, people will assume you're competent/know what you're talking about until proven otherwise.

I've never seen any women where I worked have an assumption they weren't competent. I've never heard it stated even once, unless already demonstrated.

I used to hire people for my group and I certainly never made such an assumption in which gender I hired.

Oh and you can walk down the street without getting catcalled.

That's a physical thing. Women are generally physically weaker than men so some men feel free to make rude comments.

On the other hand, I've seen attractive women get preferential treatment from men many times so it likely all balances out.

Edited November 6, 2015 by Argus

[Black Dog]

I've never seen any women where I worked have an assumption they weren't competent. I've never heard it stated even once, unless already demonstrated.

I used to hire people for my group and I certainly never made such an assumption in which gender I hired.

That may be true for you. I doubt such a thing is the case across society.

That's a physical thing.

No it's a social thing.

Women are generally physically weaker than men so some men feel free to make rude comments.

If that were true you'd think men would make unsolicited remarks at physically weaker men too. But they don't.

On the other hand, I've seen attractive women get preferential treatment from men many times so it likely all balances out.

Yeah, I bet most women would happily give up the occasional free drink in exchange for not being harassed or stalked.

Edited November 6, 2015 by Black Dog

[Scott Mayers]

The problem with this OP is that any of the stats that relate to aggregate measures based on genetics is precisely why the problems occur in the first place. That is, it is the very ignorant classification to use genetic markers to pinpoint concerns in ones' economic conditions that is the problem. Poverty or other related social generic problems in any society will always have some ethnic or cultural plurality within that logical class who are over represented.

Men are over-represented in prisons. Does this mean that there is something intrinsic about men to be more morally culpable? NO. More likely, the same population of culpability is equally dispersed by both sexes. I don't see those who favor advancing laws to balance out other genetic ethnic factors through things like quotas willing to reason that we should put more women in jail simply to appropriately balance this kind of discrimination in practice. Nor would I suggest this. But if we found means to demonstrate culpability by women who favor INDIRECT means to behave criminally, we'd likely fill in those missing stats on women prisoner populations.

As for those of us white men who argue for individual injustices that demonstrate samples of how such claims of "white privilege" are not true for us, this is intended to show how the very classification of basing struggle via race, ethnicity, or other genetic factors are not appropriate. The actual benefactors of most attending to the "white privilege" argument are just as much the very actual privileged whites who have real advantages in their own ethnic class based on their own family's actual participation in what gave them their worth from the past. As such, it is convenient to appeal to ethnicity as the 'cause' to both keep their own power and to distribute the debt upon those whites who are simply not benefiting. In other words, these very wealthy whites 'sacrifice' the poor or suffering whites while encouraging even more divisive strengthening of ethnic/genetic groupings. They both save themselves AND appeal to the other ethnic groups who want empowerment at the expense of at least some outsiders.

I feel this as a poor white male as I both get discriminated against the very "white privileged" AND to the all other races or ethnicities. By my 'peer' members in the same impoverishment or suffering through the same conditions, I get discriminated on the an unspoken bias of an assumption that I'm withholding some hidden bank account with millions. And by 'whites', I am discriminated by being exploited where I am more desperate economically as I am assumed that if I already don't have at least an average comfort, it must be because I am naturally unworthy or not trying hard enough.

I've been told by some friends that I have to look at the 'big picture'. Yet this 'big picture' is about sacrificing me for the debts of the actual ones who should be liable to the causes of any potential discrimination. It's no surprise to me that there are often more individual "white" disgruntled men who react with more unusual violence because of this. It is the biggest scam of things like our "Multicultural " policy intended to preserve this politically.

I hear things like, "We are ALL Treaty People", and think, wait a second, I don't even believe in setting up a system of Reserves we use to preserve animals and treat them as distinct beings; why would I honor maintaining any agreements that only Conserve this blatantly racist policy? Should we not be trying to integrate rather than segregate? Wasn't that the lesson of the American Civil War against slavery? Fuck, are people really this stupid?!

If I appear angry here, some will no doubt point at this as "proof" of the very racism in return. Yet I assure you, I don't favor any group based on race, ethnicity, religion, etc, INCLUDING the "white" population I just happened to be genetically related to ancestrally. The true danger lies in those who actually appear to be supporting the cause of "diversity" as they hide that this is not about any LOVE for all others, but rather a strict loyalty and LOVE of their own group....what we call, pride.

[-1=e^ipi]

If you have a job or an opinion, people will assume you're competent/know what you're talking about until proven otherwise.

What decade are you from? The 1950's.

In 2015, if any gender is considered incompetent, it's males. They are all evil rapists that should not be around children and need to be taught in universities not to rape.

But if we found means to demonstrate culpability by women who favor INDIRECT means to behave criminally, we'd likely fill in those missing stats on women prisoner populations.

Well the 63% sentencing gap probably adds to this problem. http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2144002

I feel this as a poor white male as I both get discriminated against the very "white privileged" AND to the all other races or ethnicities.

Yep, you are a scapegoat that allows people much richer than you to feel all smug and morally superior.

[cybercoma]

haha. Exhibit A.

[-1=e^ipi]

In 2015, if any gender is considered incompetent, it's males. They are all evil rapists that should not be around children and need to be taught in universities not to rape.

To be fair, it depends on which context. People might stereotype women as incompetent when it comes to things like shopping for electronics. On the other hand men are often stereotyped as idiots who need a smart women to save them when it comes to tv commercials. Arguably a lot of the difference in perception is due to neutony, which results in reduced empathy towards men and a reduction in taking women seriously.

[notca]

Studies like this are useless and probably do more harm than good by reinforcing biased ideas.

The term, 'White people' takes in a large diversity of nationalities, religions and both genders. So how can they all be lumped into one category, 'white PEOPLE'?

Privileged in what way? Born and raised in wealth? More intelligent? Having access to more opportunities? Having stronger character and/or motivation>?

I think there is too much focus on race, nationality, gender, whatever. Each individual possesses his own unique genetic makeup. Throw in early environmental training, social engineering, education, etc. and you are going to still get individual traits regardless of colour.

There have been people of all origins born to the poorest circumstances possible and have risen to great heights. Likewise there have been those born into privilege who have sunken to great depths.

[Rue]

The largeness of the stats does not make them valid. Nonsense Mr. Harder. Size of stats is not what makes them valid. It is the control methods used, the type of analysis used and the questions asked tat determine the validityl

The term"white" is idiotic. Its racist by its very term. There is no such thing as a white person any more than there is a black person or a yellow person or a purple person. The very term is a racist one skewed to lump all kinds of different peoples with different experiences into one category assumed to be privileged by skin colour which is a defective and invalid generalization.

White is an antiquated phrase used to describe supposed caucasians of Europe who came to North America before people of other nations. It assumes all whites are privileged. We are not.

Caucasian is a bull crap word. Genetically its been proven false. Its a subjective word. A white person can have as many genetic similarities to a coal black man and vice versa but not another white man.

White, black, yellow dealt with sbjective terms used to signify secondary physical traits such as amount of pigment in the skin, lip size, hair texture.

The fact that people still use it to categorize shows one clear thing-reverse racism is alive and well and being used to justify racism against people who LOOK white.

Don't call me white. Just because I have pink green grey skin. I am not white. I had no white privileges. Take your bull crap racist stereotype of me, take that label and shove it under N for Nazi or B for bigot.

The fact I am pale does not make me white or privileged. Don't even suggest I am an Aryan. Save your Nazi categorization. I am a rat. According to the terminology of white, I was defined as a rat. Ask Hitler, ask McKenzie King ask the racists who coined th eterm. Do not call me white.

My ancestors, my grandparents, are defined as white by such idiot studies and yet we were in reality defined as vermin with the Romas. Don't jerk my chain. I broke it a long time ago.

.No one gave me any privilege.My pale people faced the exact barriers any non white person did. We suffered the exact same prejudices and yet we are labelled white? What b.s. Hey my people were slaves no different then blacks. Try that crap on someone else calling me Bwana. I am no bwana.

How about Ukrainians, Irish, Scottish, Dukhabors, French, Polish, Finnosh, on and on-what they came to Canada with privilege? What bull. They came here like anyone else, completely broke, escaping famines, wars, disease, injustice. They didn't have a government waiting for them giving them benefits and free medical care. What are Portugese white> Italians? Who the hell is white?

Take your white label and shove it. Its a false caegory.

I totally concur with Tim G. Totally and absolutely. I am sick and tired or racism being used against this bull crap label called "whites" to justify reverse discrimination. We people with light pigment react no differently to unfairness than non whites. What a stupid thing to argue otherwise.

Which idiot wants to tell me my lack of pigment makes me react differently to injustice? What a racist and idiotic thing to say. Yah yah, blacks don't react the same way I do when false labels are thrown at them. Go on tell me why.

Take your liberalism which is the pith and substance of Nazism and dispose of it..

Edited November 8, 2015 by Rue

[Moonlight Graham]

Rue stop sitting on the fence and have an opinion will you please!?

[-1=e^ipi]

Take your liberalism which is the pith and substance of Nazism and dispose of it..

It's not liberalism, especially if you look at the roots of liberalism, which is based on individualism and treating people equally. Unfortunately, the word 'liberal' has been hijacked by neoprogressives.

[Rue]

I respectfully disagree IP with part not all of what you say. I would counter argue that conservatism not liberalism is based on individualism. Liberalism I would argue in the sense of Bentham or Hobbes as opposed o Burke and conservatism is based on collective identities and using the state to promote them.

In today's world, I totally agree the way we use Liberal and Conservative has changed and I agree in that respect. I do think though the fatal flaw with classic liberalism that expresses equality through law and the state is precisely that it does not work in practice while it sounds excellent in theory.

To treat someone as an equal starts and ends on an individual one on one level. Of course that may be then conditioned by your family, religious values, environment, hey even genetic predisposition, but I believe state multi-culturalism or state induced culturalism although well intended necessarily becomes selective to certain values over others and herefore bigoted. In theory its once thing but in reality I would argue a state can not be all things to all people nor should it try.

Thus I adapt the classic conservative approach the state should stay neutral and I believe you and me must work on a grass roots level to respect one another and show by our behaviour to others how its done.

Hope that gives you a good response. I know what you are saying.

As for Moonlight G hah that was funny really yah I am on the fence.

Here is where my position comes from MGraham .

The very responses by Black Dog trying to describe white privilege are subjective bigoted stereotypical characteristics he projects on whites and that is as racist and vile as anyone doing it in reverse with blacks or Muslims or Jews whatever. He would never engage in such hateful stereotypes against blacks or Muslims so why does he do it so easily with whites? Why? Why is it acceptable to engage in bigotry against whites whatever that means since most of them are grey green in the fall.

Today in Marseilles a visible minority Jew was stabbed by a Muslim screaming support for ISIL. Jews, Muslims, Christians, gays, whatever name the category, sooner or later we ALL get attacked for what we are perceived to be not what we really are. That has no colour barrier. There is NO privilege.

No one tells me what a bigot is or that they are privileged and white. No one. They come in every form.

Edited November 19, 2015 by Rue

[Smallc]

I'm still going to ask people where they're from.

[Scott Mayers]

I'm still going to ask people where they're from.

If you ask an American who was 'from' an ancestor of Ethiopia or their Nationality, they'd respond, "America" or "American".

If you ask an American who was 'from' an ancestor of Scotland or their Nationality, they'd respond, "America" or "American".

If you ask an American who was 'from' an ancestor of the Andromeda Galaxy, they'd respond, "America" or American".

Etc..

Even the aboriginal-decedents in the States would say this too. If they DO qualify more specifically, it is "American-X" where the X stands for that root.

If you ask a Canadian who was 'from' an ancestor of Scotland or their Nationality, they'd respond, "Scotland" or "Scottish".

...

But if adding the qualification of our country at present to which you'd think our nationality should respect, they would revers the way the Americans would additionally qualify. I am a Native Canadian, I am a Scottish Canadian, I am an X-Canadian (sounds like Ex-Canadian, doesn't it?)

[Smallc]

I'm more interested if you're from Vancouver or Toronto, actually.

[kimmy]

I'm more interested if you're from Vancouver or Toronto, actually.

That might be what you mean by that question, but somebody who gets that question constantly by people who want to know if she's Chinese or Korean will probably have a much different impression.

-k

[Smallc]

That might be what you mean by that question, but somebody who gets that question constantly by people who want to know if she's Chinese or Korean will probably have a much different impression.

In that particular case, I still don't see it as my problem. I'm not going to stop asking it. It's a normal part of conversation.

[kimmy]

In that particular case, I still don't see it as my problem. I'm not going to stop asking it. It's a normal part of conversation.

It might not be your "problem", but you shouldn't get mad if it rubs people the wrong way either.

-k